Kashmir:-India's, Pakistan's, or Independent ?

Thats pretty silly. If 'muslims', carte blanche, had a problem with india, then pakistan would nuke it.


India controls Kashmir. Its a region where hindus are in charge, and muslims are the general public. When the pakistan-india schism occured, there were lots of border areas that had one group on top and a mass of the other on the bottom. There are some muslims willing to conduct terrorist raids in kashmir to force the Indians to give it up. That hardly means that all muslims will do this, or that all muslim territory disputes end like that. The christians in iraq have been relatively safe from systematic attacks, for example, and the iranian government hasn't annexed the private property of zoroasterians. And in cyprus, while the greeks and turks don't guzzle uzo and chomp down on falafels together, they certainly aren't all engaged in a giant terror war against one another.

I now get why you started this thread

Your a racist towards muslims.

you even admit it.
you may say I am a racist




The problem is that the areas where these countries are going are muslim areas. If they wont muslim would they be still doing the same thing?

Russia invaded chechnya. the chechians are fighters and would have fought back if they were muslims or non-muslims

The french would still have a probelm with their ghettos. Just because they muslim doesn' mean thats the reason they are fitting back.

Indians would still ahev a probelm with their freedom fighters. It might have been a jihad to go to war and claim it to be jihad but if they wont muslims they would still be fighting. Those middle eastern countries are so much alike and connected by culture and tradtions it wouldn't have matter if they were muslim or not they still would have helped a muslim country


If they were christian countries would you stll have that same opinion?

It wouldn't matter if they were different religions they citizens still would have done the same and have the same opinion

@ Daedalus3


Thats only because there from POK. they are still kashmirians



[edit on 23-11-2005 by chinawhite]

Wether I am racist or not it dosent matter ...you are free to make foolish asumptions ...as noted by the member himself I STARTED THIS TOPIC TO Discuss about KASMIR under the REQUEST OF "RajKhalsa "in a diffrent forum



It depends upon how you define racism ...If its hatred towards a race due to its different origin then NO i am not a racist ....if its hatred todards a race(here muslims) due to their present and past activities and thoughts then YES I AM A RACIST ...and I have enough reason for that ....
I hate the muslims for their history and present
I hate the chinese for thier Present and respect them for their past
I hate the yanks for thir Ignorance and Respect them above all for thier love for "Talent" , "Rule of Law" and many other rare qualities

well these will be too high for a chinese brain like you to realise ...you better take it for granted that I am a Racist ...and go on doing your "COPY PASTE " policy (after all you are a Chinese)



Irrespective of all these "if nots" the fact is in all these cases the troublesome people ARE MUSLIMS , History is the proof of the fact that the Muslims have most of the time beein barbarious and uncivilized



sure why not ...but the fact is today christans (majority of them)have opened up their minds ...even if they go for a war(read "struggle for exsistance") they have a better ,polished and civilized way for doing that

(For your information I am not a Christan I am a communist .)


NO you are ignorant about their problems ...citizens from other religions might have problems but they most of the time would have followed different more civilized strategy ...as followed by the tibetians against china and Sikhs against India and democrats against communists (in USSR)

The problems with muslims is that majority of them have failed to civilize ...still they treat women as child producing machines ,still they prefer to live in closed circles ......There are millions of muslims who are exceptions of this rule but the fact is that the mjority of muslim soceity and Muslim leader Inherit these traits

I still remember the Sept 9th when thousands of Amerians died the non muslim Russian socity were exrimely sorry for what happened to thir "fellow human bieings " in the US (Though many if not majority of them still consider USA as an enemy) only the Muslim soceity were impressed throughout the world (including Russia) by this barberic act I think that's a reason ehough to dislike muslims


[edit on 24-11-2005 by prelude]

Well thee is no discussion when it only invole remarks about how bad muslims are.



Racism as defined by dictionary.com is Discrimination or prejudice based on race. You racism is not based on race but religion. so yes you are a racist

What is the difference between your above meaings?

Islam is a religion not a race. Only a small group of extremist(1000) bomb people and you group them together.....laugh. It would be easy to blame all these problems by grouping people with a common interest together but only very narrow minded people like yourslef would do that



Coming from a russian




I can group all caucasians together and read the fine print of their history. What history are you talkig about. How is anything muslims have done any different from the christans in the crusade or the dark ages?

Every religion or race has done things that are not up to your standard of civillisation now where is your haterd for them?




.....but the fact is today muslims (majority of them)have not been a suicide bomber or a fanatical fighter that has been on a jihad. Now what are you basing these numbers on about this "struggle for exsistance" thing? Was it because you watched a TV show and though

I am narrow minded and i will think every muslim thinks like that

Your completely ignorant to your own arguement

And the fact that your a communist. i give you the thumbs up. converting to a dieing breed



Well well well. A russian telling us what is civillized and what isn't. Dont make me post some figures or pictures of your civillized crimes. Or serbian crimes in 99

No sorry. But tibetians revolted with guns in 1959. You push people to far or corner than they do crazy things.

That after all is a human insticit. no matter how well you are dedicated to your religion you can be pushed to the breaking point

The muslims where pushed by different factors.



What is your treasure is not your teasure. They hold different values than you do.

You are arguing that all muslims including the ones being oppressed are uncivillized because they let themselves to be pushed into this situation. Is our modern society better than it was 1000years ago?

We have problems because of drugs
Less fmaily unity
Womens right that have sprialled out of control
Respect for the family

etc...the thigns muslims still have




Trying to win sympathy from the americans...tsk tsk tsk
Sells his family for a pair of shoes.

Do you block out all the sympathy the muslim countries expressed for 9/11? The only people i remember smiling over this was the terriorist(not for long though)

No that is not reason to hate muslims

[edit on 24-11-2005 by chinawhite]

Lol .... a persistant India baiter ... continues his usual anti-India rhetoric.

With propaganda as the sole argument .... his perseverence at India baiting must be appriciated.

Please go check your facts and look at the aid that India has given not only to Kashmir and PoK but also to interior pakistan for quake relif.

Go take a look at the quantity of aid distributed....the amount of food grain, blankets, clothing, etc that India has given....the several relif camps that India has steup for pakistan's quake victims ... despite that latter sponsoring terrorist attacks at New Delhi.

Infact i have to add that its the Chinese who have been very very stingy in giving aid to any disaster around the world.



Stop bringing up what the PLA does to tibetians and the rest of its own people on this thread.


P.S : Perhaps you should consider joining one of the jehadi training capms in Pok .... you seem to have all the qualifications for a great instructor

Stealth spy seeing as how they only offered aid to pakistan. Not actaully arived yet, You cant possibly think it all will

China has sent over 49 rescue workers(lots of experience becaue of chinas many earthquakes (immideatly) and 17tons worth of tents food all the nessary things (immideatly). And 5million worth of other aids essentials (immideatly). All these things are needed before the kashmirian winter which drops down to -40 degress in some places. This was all just the immideate offer.

china almost is providing $300 million in soft loans for redevelopment in the areas affected. more chinese aid tops 25+million. and is offering to help set up a national network of seismic centers to warn of future quakes

I dont see how india has helped more instead of just talking?



China has NEVER taken any disater relief from anyone.

In the recent tsunami(which they were acting like a rich big brother) what was the indian contribution?

It was 23million compared to donations from the Chinese public which total 20million

The offical chinese was 63million. this is almost 3 Times more than what is has offered.

The 23million dollars india offered was only directed to Sri Lanka and Maldives which are close to india.

Now how is that stingy compared t india?




Raping? Its againest the law in china to rape anyone. If anyone breaks a law the wil get what the law brings to you.

You arent denying that happens in kashmir?



Maybe you should join the indian army in kashmir. You have all the qualifications for a great killer

I joined this forum because of you.

You have continued your anti-china rhetoric in other forums posting exactly the same topics in each forum.

Propaganda. It is you which constantly gives us links to only indian sites which are unreliable as well

There has been enough bickering and baiting on this thread.
If we can't stay civil as of right now, this thread can be closed.

As it is, I can't see much to warrnat it being in Political Conspiracies.
So, it's off to PTS.


[edit on 26-11-2005 by DontTreadOnMe]

Please don't close it... I humbly ask the usual suspects to cool off a bit. I'm working all night tonite, so tomorrow will once again rejoin the discussion.

I have a prediction that china will showhow get draw into this conflict.

rajkhalsa2004 i dont like your attitude. You painted to rosy a picture of indian forces in kashmir wheres the situation is completely different(someting you left out)


Well i dont hate indian culture or people i hate certain members on-line which try to protray india as some sort of paradise or always being the victim somehow

Back to disscussion...

From what the current situatoin in kashmir the indians need 750,000 men(paramilitary) in kashmir to help quell a rebellion of 30k men?. Rights get violanted.

I cant find one site on the internet about who actually started the 1947war. India or pakistan. Read some books but are very vague on who did what, so i am asking your opinion about who started the war + i will ask some pakistanis

From what i gather, muslim tribemens (the Pathans) revolted againest the hindu king and pleaded to india which asked it to be signed to india in exchange for help.

here is a Onwar article which both sides tell their story
www.onwar.com...

Gee, that's funny. Taiwanese want independence, but you are opposed to that.

As for Kashmir, as I understand it, sovereignty was passed from Britain to India (correct me if I am wrong.) If that is the case, than India is the sole legal sovereign power and any movement toward independence should go through New Delhi. New Delhi also doesn't recognize the cession of Chinese-occupied Kashmir from Pakistan to China. Nice to see the two autocratic regimes show their true colors and stand against the democracy in the region. However, both are on the wrong side of international law. Too bad the international community doesn't have any backbone.

That is simply not true. When I lived in Shanghai during the 1998 floods, there was a lot of positive coverage in the Chinese press about foreigners who provided assistance to the Chinese people who were suffering the ravages of the floods.



India was the third biggest VICTIM of the tsunami!



Not counting how much they spent on their own. I credit them for being able to help others when they were also hit pretty hard by the tsunami.




China often doesn't enforce its own laws. The law certainly doesn't apply to the PLA.



Considering what the PLA has done, you shouldn't be making such comments.

ludahai anything other than your own experience(which you give for edvidence all the time).

Because chian has not accepted any aid from any country ever.



and Somalia was the fifth with 298 victims your point being?



We are talking about how much each country gave seeing as how the 83million chinese gave is stingy compared to the indian donation



Any documented cases. or your own experience?.

If chian doesn't enforce its laws why were you complaining about how much excutions in china before

Or it doesn't happen when you dont want it to happen?



What has the PLA done?

Am i a citizen of the australia or the PRC?.

Why are you comparing china to india. This is talking about indias/pakistans right to kasimir. If you want to talk about the PRC humans rights go to taiwan vs china thread.



You generalise to much. what was the ratio again?

49.99 to 50.01??. Oh wait that is only about half half with the majority only having a 0.01 lead. Interesting



You are wrong.

Well i do think that the election should be a indian organized thing. They shouldn't commit human right errors



Nice that you brang that up. I would like to talk about that. Would you mine gving your facts?

rajkhalsa2004 lets extend the topic to kashmir, indian-chinese relations and border claims?

Would be nice to get a un-biased opinion from a indian

chinawhite, lets not.

Not only do I barely have enough time to view this thread, let alone post in it, already the scope of discussion has completely messed up the direction of the thread, and plus we've had several discussions on those very same topics already!

I don't have the time or inclination to get in an argument with someone who does so disingenuously, or who refuses to read long posts, or completely forgets facts and discussions had two pages previous.

The fact that you and your other Chinese nationalist friends are falling over yourselves with the discussionary ad hominem that drives you to take every possible anti-India stance possible, and argue mindlessly against the Indian position on your nationalistic principal alone, despite your guys's stunning ignorance of basic facts save from what you gleam from random websites, shows me exactly how you will approach yet another discussion.



Frankly, I'm sick of the circular, ubernationalistic arguments that categorize discussion with you. So, no thank you. You guys can continue your never-ending bickering without me again getting involved.

There are others here who appreciate discussion grounded in reason rather than rhetoric.

Cheers,
Raj

[edit on 27-11-2005 by rajkhalsa2004]

rajkhalsa2004 having a memory lapse?

*- Please don't close it... I humbly ask the usual suspects to cool off a bit. I'm working all night tonite, so tomorrow will once again rejoin the discussion.

Ohh please dont close it *cry cry cry* I want to join the disscussion. Was that you on the very same page or cant you remember

Seeing as how you attacking my memory(which never happened)

*- or who refuses to read long posts, or completely forgets facts and discussions had two pages previous

Read long posts?. Your post are only one or so computer screen sizes. Some i choose not to read because of the amount of BS you emphasize on putting into it In those several discussions beforehand i dont even think you read any of my post because you completely ignored my sources or completely by passed what my post was replying to

*- Frankly, I'm sick of the circular, ubernationalistic arguments that categorize discussion with you.The fact that you and your other Chinese nationalist friends are falling over yourselves with the discussionary

Your a shinning star of un-biased comments aren't you?. Have you read what you even posted in the second page of this thread?. Where is your sidekick gone now Rak?. Or you choose to ignore the comments they make about china?. Double standards none the less.

Where are all the chinese here? I seem to be the only one. Heaps of people tripping over here

*- from what you gleam from random websites

Random websites?. I post websites from renown china watchs while you refer me to a website which you and your buddies made. I did post a lot of links (which you did not read), but thats how your partner worked

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Topic: Indian border

The whole indian claim rest on the McMahon Line. A line drawn up by the british themselves during their colonial time in india. This was suppose to have been signed at the Simla Conference.

The only reason the chinese attended the Simla Conference was because it was acknowledged that it had sovernity over tibet during the conference. The british presented china with a treaty to sign (McMahon Line included) and they refused. Later they secretly they forced the tibetians to sign in exchange for their independece.

This breached the Anglo-Chinese Convention of 1906, in which Britain was to "engage not to annex Tibetan territory," but also of the Anglo-Russian Convention of 1907. which made a treaty that acknowledged chinese soverity over tibet

Their is no legallity with only tibetian representives signing without the chinese signing since they (the chinese) had sovernity over tibetian affairs. You might later say the chinese manchu empire was gone and tibet was soverign but it is not true according to the secession of states theory. Why did the british again approch chian in 1919 to have another tripartite conference again?

Why did the british want to have a large boundary of land which was useless to them? Because of their greedy intentions to have a buffer at the chinese and tibetians expense. They tried to do the same in afganistan but the russians were there

No one during this time acknowledged tibet as a soverign country and NO country gave tibet diplomatic recognition. Only after the 1959 rebellion (with the help of india and the CIA) did the tibetians start telling the world that they were independent.

If they were so independent why did tibetian representatives go in 1947 to watch the drafting of a new constitution for the ROC?. If they weren't part of china why would they need to be there. Again they signed a treaty with china in 1951 which they had full knowledge of what they were signing why did they sign? Or why did the tibetians accept the gold jiang jieshi gave the dalai lama for being chosen to be the next dalai lama which all chinese empires had to do to, which the tibetians accept to acknowledge that they were under chinese rule. the cermony is called "sitting on the bed". That is a rough translatio of what it means

Now most if not all of you guys dont know what system the tibetians had before the chinese occupation. It was based on land owners and serfs which are slaves to the lamas. This system was roughly similar to pre-communist russia(Tsar) and againest every priciple agaienst communism. When the chinese tried land reform in the country the lamas rebelled againest chinese rule.

Why is western media saying that is was a general rebelion againest chinese rule? why would the slaves rebell againest a system which set them free. Claims that tibet was a peacful country. Not every was a monk. Who was making the food

Now with that written what is the basis of the indian claim which is legal?

The people on the other side of the border are mongolia type people. that means looks chinese/tibetian and have been tradtional tibetian areas. Find any map before the drawing of the McMahon line and you will see that none of the areas india claims have been originally indian

Why do the indians think that the McMahon line is the boundary? Because they think that what the british said they were entitled to. The PRC doesn't reconize the Mahon line the ROC doesn't reconize the McMahon line only the indians do.

When chian started to build a major road through askin chin it took the indians two years to realize what happened. This incident only shows how much the indians cared about the region



[edit on 27-11-2005 by chinawhite]

I don't think I will be able to go back and find CCTV archives from 1998.



Point being that despite being a large victim of the tsunami, India was still able to provide assistance to its neighbors in need. In the circumstances, providing aid to Indonesia and Thailand (which were getting considerable aid from other quarters already) was simply not in the cards.



I was not criticizing the Chinese donation, merely trying to provide an objective assessment of India's position.



There are hundreds of documented cases. I don't have time to go into them right now.



They execute people for offenses no civilized country would execute people for. All the while, the Party and the army is guilty of gross violations of human rights and corrpution, not to mention cover-ups of disasters (witness the recent attempted cover-up of the benzene slick in the Songhua River.)



Never heard of the atrocities in Tibet and other occupied regions?



You continually defend the PRC and make claims regarding to your ethnic heritage. I have no problem with the later, but when it is used to defend the crimes of the PRC, that is where I have a problem.



I was simply pointing our your hypocrisy on the issue of independence for Kashmir and Taiwan.



And if you think everyone who voted for Lien Chan is in favor of Taiwan being a part of China, you are completely mistaken. Most people I know who voted for Lien already regard Taiwan as an independent state. They simply believe (mistakenly in my opinion) that the Chinese KMT is better at government than the DPP. Not living here, you don't have daily contact with the people, nor do you seem to appreciate the lengths to which the Pan Blue alliance is downplaying the Hong Kong consensus among other seeming pro-China attitudes.



Actually, I am not wrong. The ruler of Kashmir acceded to India after Pakistan violated the Standsill Agreement by cutting off vital supplies to Kashmir and allowing armed forces to enter the state.

kashmir-information.com...



If there is to be a plebiscite, it should be the entire territory under the proper sovereign, India. It then becomes an internal affair of India (much like Quebec) regarding the issue of sovereignty. This is quite different than the situation regarding Taiwan or Tibet.



en.wikipedia.org...

Pakistan ceded Aksai Chin to China for the later's support in the general conflict with India over the Kashmir region. Pakistan's cession was illegal because it changed the status of an occupied territory, an violation of international law. All of Jammu and Kashmir is legally the territory of India and no one else.

ludahai good luck to you fighting the PRC. I could have responded but it would just end up into another slug fest. If you dont already know my position or think you are going to change it then dont bother because if the 181 page didn't teach you anything well god help us.

Anyway these quote rallies look awfully weak

I cant help you if you cant read English ...on the ENTIRE thread there had been just ONE post against Muslims by me (the another one is a reply to your post)





then according to you i am by no means a racist ...coz all my grivances are against some Religion NOT Race ...you fall out of logic





Acts are always accomplished by small number of people supported by the rest .....If not so then why do we give the credits of noom exploration to the USA ....They were accomplished by few people supported by the rest



The world knows the contribution of Russia in field of human development ,in fields of innovation .....and the world knows how the Chinese father of nation(Nao ) went to Moscow to BEG for some facilities from Stalin ....Then Russia did a lot to help China....may be the chinese wanted more so they are today against Russia but the Chineese must remember BEGGARS ARE NOT SEEKERS



Then I must say that you havent read history at all ....any authority in history (including the muslim ones)will accept the fact that MUSLIM religion was spread by FORCE , According to Rushbook Williams "The Muslim leaders used to carry Koran on one hand and shord on the other", Mohammed himself destroyed religious symbols of preexsisting religions ...so Muslim by origin are destructive....Its a greatness of today's civilization that we tend to forget history of Islam

[Quote]And the fact that your a communist. i give you the thumbs up. converting to a dieing breed