It's ALL Propaganda folks

So, the world is possibly teetering on the brink of a major conflict in Europe that would potentially spread to the rest of the world. Information is flowing out of Ukraine and Russia in many forms, particularly digital but also in the press, from "official" gov sources on both sides.

The information war has always been a part of warfare. Both sides of any conflict do their best to make their side look good and the other side look bad. We are seeing it in true real time in '22 with this war. Just read the posts and threads here on ATS to see it. Or just google propaganda posters or articles from any conflict to see it.

One side is all # Russia, everything they say is a lie!!!!

The other side is all # Ukraine, everything they say is a lie!!!

While people like me are doing our best to try and find "reliable" sources across the globe and net to actually figure out wtf is really going on. Which is a difficult job as 1. I dont speak Russian and 2 the flow of info has been throttled in a way that it is truly difficult to find sources that I trust. I mean I just had to post an article from Presstv ffs to show someone that Russia did in fact claim Zelensky has left Ukraine. PRESSTV!!!

Xcathdra has a nice quote at the bottom of his posts in the Russia Ukraine update thread...

Just so people know and understand. Information from war zones can become confusing as there will no doubt be info released from the players (on both sides) involved that might not necessarily be true.

As such take everything as a possibility and NOT as absolute truth.

The very first casualty in a war is the truth and all warfare is based on deception

Bolding mine

Both sides of this conflict, both the active combatants and their cheerleaders, have a easily documented history of using Propaganda against their citizens. I really don't want to list them as I am sure most of us on ATS are aware of these examples but if someone really wants examples I provide well documented ones.

This piece is slightly OT but relevant. Insulating Russia and their citizens from the rest of the world could (will) have an effect of those same citizens only digesting the propaganda from their own gov. Look at North Korea for an example of what happens when a population is cut off from the rest of the world. How many North Koreans do you think believe that the West is composed of baby eating, city razing, godless animals? That's all they see through state run TV, press and net. Having access to only vanilla ice cream everyday, all day will lead you to believe that there is only vanilla ice cream, which is in fact false ( maybe a bad analogy but whatever).

Are there "nazis" in Ukraine? Yep, well documented.

Are there "nazis" in Russia? Yep, well documented.

Is Ukraine a corrupt country? Yep, well documented.

Is Russia a corrupt country? Yep, well documented.

Has there been a civil war in Ukraine for almost a decade? Yep, well documented.

Has Russia been providing equipment and support to the rebels in Ukraine in that same time period? Yep, well documented. In fact, Russian military claim that there has been about 500 Russian military "advisors" killed in the Ukrainian civil war before this invasion.

Did Russia annex Crimea, a part of Ukraine, back in 2014? Yep, very well documented.

Has NATO been expanding Eastward for the last 40 years or so? Yep, just a simple fact.

The only real facts I am sure of in this whole conflict is that Russia invaded another country without provocation and that people are dying on both sides.

I'll leave the OP with these final words.

Be wary and skeptical of any information source and ask yourself while digesting whatever information you may decide to consume: Why is this piece of information been given to me now? Can I verify any of the information presented? And are my beliefs and biases leading me to just accept what is being presented?

Anyway, always remember folks, there is a war on for mind. People have been learning how to manipulate populations for millennia, they are pretty freaking good at it.

It's not so much why is what's happening happening, it's more why is the west trying so hard to intentionally start a war with Russia.

originally posted by: GAOTU789
The only real facts I am sure of in this whole conflict is that Russia invaded another country without provocation and that people are dying on both sides.

Great OP, GAOTU789.

I do disagree with the bolded words above. There may not have been a military provocation ... but, they poked the bear.

a reply to: Snarl

they poked the bear.

They have for sure. For example, my country has been sending military to Ukraine for a while now to train Ukrainian military. As well as initially accepting Ukraine and Georgie into NATO before rescinding that directive after Russia said, "nope # that" and invaded Georgia in 2008.

But that game has been played since the end of WW2 when we divided into NATO and Warsaw Pact. It isn't new and isn't a cause for an invasion of a sovereign nation.

a reply to: GAOTU789

Very true and very good OP.

One thing I would add is that war time is a time when conspiracy theories are born aplenty and many seem to grow legs despite an absence of evidence to support them.

A new one subtly introduced on Fox last night is to the effect that the Clintonista's via the Obama advisors who operate the Biden puppet actually tricked Putin into invading Ukraine in hopes the effort would become a quagmire which would ultimately bring down Putin in another one of the Clintonista "Color" revolutions, i.e. a "Russian Spring" movement.

There isn't any evidence to support this notion and as well, I seriously doubt anyone of the US elites ever believed the Russians would get bogged down and slowed down as badly as they appear to have done.

There is however, doubtless glee amongst the anti-American Fascist Progressive group at the spike in gas prices.

a reply to: GAOTU789

Incredible write up.

Second to being a hot conflict, we have a disinformation war. I've limited my American institutional media intake only to see what they're saying but get most of my stuff from independent or foreign outlets.

Russia has their line, the west has theirs. We have to read in between the lines and know many truths may not come out until after if ever.

Sad state of affairs being in a technological Renaissance eith as much of an information drought as the days prior to it.

But alas, that's the human condition. We just rarely seem to get it right. Constantly perverting any big leap forward shortly after discovering it.

a reply to: GAOTU789
A timely and relevant OP. Trying to stay unbiased and stick with the few facts we have isn't always easy, but it is necessary if you want to weed out the propaganda.

What strikes me as being particularly repugnant isn't as much the two sides of this conflict using psychological warfare, but how my own government has used said conflict as an opportunity to manipulate the public in more ways than one. They certainly aren't letting this crisis go to waste.

Excellent points that all parties are engaged in propaganda, and that we do not and cannot know the whole truth. About pretty much anything.

The only real facts I am sure of in this whole conflict is that Russia invaded another country without provocation and that people are dying on both sides.

But I do not agree that the invasion was not provoked. I would agree that a military invasion was not proportional to the provocation, and that a military invasion was therefore not warranted. But Russia was definitely provoked.

And I daresay that Zelensky and the west damn well did it on purpose. When Putin is saying the same exact thing for years, making his concerns and objections very clear, and the consequences quite clear as well, and Ukraine and the west basically say "F you," knowing the consequences, then yes, the provoked the invasion.

Why???

originally posted by: Smigg
It's not so much why is what's happening happening, it's more why is the west trying so hard to intentionally start a war with Russia.

Biden just said why:
To transform the economy away from fossil fuel.


F these people

a reply to: GAOTU789

Best post yet about this conflict...

Regardless, us "normal" people will be the losers.

originally posted by: GAOTU789
It isn't new and isn't a cause for an invasion of a sovereign nation.

We don't lead countries, so we see eye-to-eye.

I didn't think Putin was messing around when he massed 190,000 troops on Ukraine's border. He could've gone in any time he wanted, but he waited 'til Nord Stream 2 was denied service by the Germans. Then he turned the departing troops around and rammed them in. The timing of the actions and reactions just seems like 'a tell' to me. The separatist regions within the Ukraine were every excuse Putin needed ... lots of Russian loyalists being killed and abused (reportedly).

a reply to: GAOTU789

GAOTU789; That's why the great's will always be GREAT.

Excellent post and something most of us need reminding of.

a reply to: Boadicea

When Hezoballah and Hamas lob rockets at Israeli cities and civilians, that's provocation.

When Israel bulldozes and annexes parts of the West Bank, that's provocation

When Israel bombed a nuclear site in Syria, that's provocation.

When Al Qaeda hit the US, that's provocation.

When ISIS attacked Germany and France and other European nations, that's provocation.

Both sides funding and fueling a civil war in a buffer country, that's not provocation. BOTH sides have been fueling the Ukrainian civil war much the same as both sides fueled the war in Afghanistan, both countries war in that country.

My only question to you is did Ukraine attack Russia?

a reply to: Klassified

I believe Churchill is who this quote gets attributed to initially....

Never Let a Good Crisis Go to Waste

a reply to: Snarl

My belief and my belief only is that Putin waited until the Olympics were finished as a slight head nod to China. He didn't want to ruin the Chinese showcase on the world stage.

Although the pipeline politics of Europe played a part in the decision imo anyway.

a reply to: GAOTU789

I see you like to think that all provocation takes place out in the open, that covert warfare doesnt exist.

Facevalue....?

Its not always about launching hardware at eachother. But yes, its damn hard to prove the covert stuff. Lets just not act as if it doesnt happen.......

a reply to: GAOTU789

Very well said. I actually reminded my neighbor of this 2 days ago. I told her I believe only about 10% of the Information coming out.

originally posted by: GAOTU789
a reply to: Boadicea

When Hezoballah and Hamas... When Israel... When Al Qaeda...When ISIS...

Yes, all of the above is clear provocation.

Both sides funding and fueling a civil war in a buffer country, that's not provocation. BOTH sides have been fueling the Ukrainian civil war much the same as both sides fueled the war in Afghanistan, both countries war in that country.

So you know and understand that Ukraine is attacking ethnic Russian people and Russian-sympathizers in Ukraine, and you do not consider that "provocation," and just think tough # for you? Because "no provocation" and these people don't deserve protection and defense from acts of war committed by their own government forces?

My only question to you is did Ukraine attack Russia?

Honest answer: I don't know. I know there were reports of Ukrainian forces crossing into Russia to commit dastardly deeds prior to Russia's invasion. If these reports are true, then yes, Ukraine did attack Russia. If not, then Ukraine forces only attacked Russian civilians in those areas on the border.

a reply to: flice

No it isn't, you are absolutely right.

Do the cyber attacks against say the Pentagon or in my country CSIS constitute provocation? Maybe.

Is there way more going on then what we know as a general population? Of course, it's naive and reckless to think otherwise.

Will most nations on the planet invade another country over covert actions? Nope, otherwise we'd be at war constantly and I don't mean small scale conflicts or civil wars, I mean full out total war.

Covert action is used often so that what ever that mission objective may be, it isn't seen as overtly provocative.

We've been capturing spies for ever, direct covert actions against our countries, and we haven't gone to war over it.

a reply to: GAOTU789

Well said, Brother, not much I can disagree with there, the main issue is who invaded who.