Moon Mystery House/ Mystery Hut/ Cube: Secret Buildings in Background of the Photo

a reply to: ArMaP

I don't know if M5xaz lived in the US during the 80s or not, I'm sure I did not.

^Sir, that was the guy trolling me about my life experience in the 90's and 80's.


And he obviously did NOT live in the US or any English-speaking country, in his whole life, as seen in his broken sentences. I thought that was obvious!!

This conversation has absolutely gotten completely lost in the haze.

I'm not disagreeing with your childhood experience (how could I?), I'm only trying to show (from my point of view, obviously) that the sentence "the United States was relatively behind-the-curve with computers in those decades" was not true.

It is true, and what's also true, is that the conversation degraded so much that I can't really be involved in this nonsense right now.

Did you know people all over the country at the time?

^What a crazy thing to say.

And yes, I know the general American tech & media landscape that I grew up in, 80's & 90's.

And that means I automatically know the environment I grew up in, better than people who grew up in other countries, in that same time.

The games sales mean that people bought them, what do you think they bought them for?

^No, it doesn't mean that AMERICANS bought those games, which is what we were supposedly discussing.

Rather I expect that computer games were mostly being bought by consumers in the UK and Europe etc., not the US, during the 80's and most of the 90's.

So, who was buying the games?

Consumers in the UK, & Europe, and potentially a lot of tangentially related areas.

a reply to: ArMaP

Computers were too expensive for most European families, the US market was the big one.

^Well they were also too expensive for most US families too. What a bizarre conversation.

The biggest market was the US.

Maybe this is a problem of scale, that the US population is just so much larger altogether, compared to much smaller European countries which may be the size of our states.


So maybe that's what ur referring to, maybe a small percentage of home consumers in the US, in the 80's and most of the 90's, maybe it seems so huge because it's a small percentage of a huge population.


Likewise maybe it's a problem with scale when the same decades had widespread computer presence in our libraries the entire times, public libraries + school libraries, + colleges.

They were automatically consuming millions of computers but it was insulated and separate from the lives of normal people.

Same for businesses, in those decades, probably automatically buying millions of computers and apparently giving the wrong impression... because normal life was still quite foreign to computers for most people in those decades.

We could also debate the exact years of the computer & internet explosion in the late 90's, like whether we'd point at '97 or '98 or '99 etc. but that hardly seems what anyone is talking about, the conversation more just seems unhinged at this point lol, I hope I might have helped clarify things...

originally posted by: JamesChessman
If you know that my entire early childhood was the 80's, then how in the world would I be unable to describe that decade?

Are you one of those people who assume that other people can't remember their childhood?

No, read my previous post, my sentence should have been written in a different way.

a reply to: JamesChessman

Portugal is now a relatively poor (when compared with other "western" countries), but in the 1980s it was much worse (joining the EU help us a lot).

Being closer to the UK, most of the computer scene in Portugal was dominated by what happened in the UK, but we usually looked at what was happening in the US to imagine how things could be here some 5 years later.

originally posted by: JamesChessman
Well this is along the lines of my earlier response. It's just bizarre to assume that people can't accurately report their childhood and the general tech landscape that they grew up in.

I meant nothing like that.

What I meant is that someone that is 8 years old has a different understanding of the world around them, specially when talking about technological markets.

You guys think I can't remember such things or what lol. I pity people who CAN'T remember their childhood.

No, I don't think that, stop assuming things about what am/was thinking, if you have any doubts, ask, do not assume.

a reply to: JamesChessman

From the moment you replied it turned into a conversation.

Remember that next time.

originally posted by: JamesChessman
^Sir, that was the guy trolling me about my life experience in the 90's and 80's.


And he obviously did NOT live in the US or any English-speaking country, in his whole life, as seen in his broken sentences. I thought that was obvious!!

In all my years on ATS I have seen many broken sentences (much worse than what we can see in this thread) posted by US citizens. The way people write is not a sure way of knowing where they are from, much less where they have lived.

It is true, and what's also true, is that the conversation degraded so much that I can't really be involved in this nonsense right now.

^What a crazy thing to say.

And yes, I know the general American tech & media landscape that I grew up in, 80's & 90's.

And that means I automatically know the environment I grew up in, better than people who grew up in other countries, in that same time.

That doesn't answer my question, but it's OK, all of this is off topic.

^No, it doesn't mean that AMERICANS bought those games, which is what we were supposedly discussing.

Rather I expect that computer games were mostly being bought by consumers in the UK and Europe etc., not the US, during the 80's and most of the 90's.

You "expect", but, as I said before, the US games market was the biggest at the time, as it was also the market with more different machines that people could buy.

Consumers in the UK, & Europe, and potentially a lot of tangentially related areas.

So, you say that people that didn't live in the US do not know how things were there in the 80s, but you think you know how things were in the rest of the world?

originally posted by: JamesChessman
^Well they were also too expensive for most US families too. What a bizarre conversation.

The purchase power of the average family was higher in the US than in Europe during the 1980s, and the US recovered faster than the rest of the world (in general) from the 1982 recession, a recession that saw unemployment levels reach or surpass those of the great recession, along with high inflation rates.
(I was one of the many looking for a job during the 80s, and thanks to a couple of short courses paid by the EU (EEC at the time) I was able to not only find a job but also learn the basis that allowed me to get a second, better, job).

Maybe this is a problem of scale, that the US population is just so much larger altogether, compared to much smaller European countries which may be the size of our states.


So maybe that's what ur referring to, maybe a small percentage of home consumers in the US, in the 80's and most of the 90's, maybe it seems so huge because it's a small percentage of a huge population.

No, as the US population is smaller than the population of all European countries. If we ignore the Eastern Europe countries that were part of the Soviet Block until the end of the 1980s, the population of the US was probably slightly bigger, but I don't really know.

Likewise maybe it's a problem with scale when the same decades had widespread computer presence in our libraries the entire times, public libraries + school libraries, + colleges.

They were automatically consuming millions of computers but it was insulated and separate from the lives of normal people.

Same for businesses, in those decades, probably automatically buying millions of computers and apparently giving the wrong impression... because normal life was still quite foreign to computers for most people in those decades.

That's why I tried to focus on the game market.

We could also debate the exact years of the computer & internet explosion in the late 90's, like whether we'd point at '97 or '98 or '99 etc. but that hardly seems what anyone is talking about, the conversation more just seems unhinged at this point lol, I hope I might have helped clarify things...

I agree, that's off-topic for this off-topic discussion.

Well I took a little time to clear my head about this side tangent; haven't read thru all the posts yet.

Well this is a totally annoying tangent, for one thing, we'd need some kind of official documentation to really settle things, and I'm not even really sure what exactly that would be.

Maybe a geography-and-population based timeline, of computer sales / popularity, in past decades, from a computer magazine or something.

I don't have such official documentation, nor did I expect such a side topic to take on a life of its own. I don't even think the first guy was having a real conversation, I think he was trolling, and then it got taken up by ArMaP like a real conversation.

So I think there seems a lot of general misunderstandings...




And then, like I said, unless we were to find some kind of official documentation, then short of that, there's no real proof of anything.

So I end up the only person reporting anecdotally my life experience, of the US' general tech & media landscape in the 80's and 90's... and then people who grew up elsewhere seem to be trying to disagree about the prevalence of computers in those decades, it's really a bizarre conversation.

But so there's not much I can do about people disagreeing with that, from other places, which I just find bizarre.





And I'm also not even really sure where the misunderstandings come from. I was glancing at Seinfeld trivia earlier today, as the quintessential 90's American sit-com... apparently Jerry's apartment always featured different Mac computers, in the corner, throughout the 90's.

^So maybe it's stuff like THAT which might give wrong impressions, because maybe Seinfeld might make it look like Americans had desktop Macs laying around... but no, we really didn't. Jerry's corner computers were an odd detail of the show, for American viewers... plus it can't really be on me to try to figure out other people's misunderstandings anyway...




He must have had some sponsorship with Apple, I assume, because it seems an exotic set-piece, more than something he really had a connection with. The show ran thru the early 90's so it was definitely before common usage of the internet.

And this GIF seems to clarify that he's basically making fun of the idea of sitting at a computer lol, clicking on the mouse, and staring at an empty screen like an idiot:





...Plus I thought it was common knowledge ANYWAY that I was referring to, when I mentioned the UK and Europe etc. had a bit of a thriving computer scene, more than the US, in past decades. I didn't think I was even saying anything unusual, let alone controversial or debatable.





And then, I feel like I've basically said everything I can say, anyway:

I already described how there was practically no personal home ownership of computers through the 80's and most of the 90's, till the late 90's explosion of computers & web popularity...

I described the 80's American home as based on a TV set, with VCR, and Nintendo Entertainment System; the 90's consoles being replaced by SNES and Sega Genesis, etc.

I mentioned my early 90's collection of CONSOLE games that were ported from computers onto console... because we didn't have computers, so we got computer-console ports, and directly from the same companies that u had mentioned, like Electronic Arts;


I mentioned my CAD class (95-96, IIRC) having teenagers excited to sneak 5-10 minutes of Doom, Minesweeper, MS Paint.

I mentioned my mom going thru college around the same time, graduated around 1996, with a "word processor" instead of a computer.

I pointed out the 1996 headliner videogames (Mario 64 and NiGHTS) being FOR people without computers... because that seems the necessary premise, that anybody was excited about stupid Mario running around in 3D space.

The US, and the world, went insane about this... and I thought it was obviously premised on the general LACK of computers. Because I don't think the excitement would have been there, if more people were just playing Doom, it's really much more fun 3D gameplay that came first.







So this whole topic just seems impossible though, lol. If people want to imagine that computers were common, when they weren't... well the topic barely even makes any sense, lol.

And for one more anecdote about the 90's tech landscape, the SNES is well-known that it closed its lifespan with the Donkey Kong Country series, 1994-1996.

Based on advanced computer modeling, from Rare, from Britain.

In other words, the entire (Japanese) console's lifespan... eventually settled on 3 headline games developed in Britain. And then people are like trying to argue that the US was on the level, we obviously weren't, lol.

The DKC series basically had Britain ruling the home console gaming scene, in those specific 3 years. There is not an American equivalent of this, no not Vectorman and Blue Sky Software, I love them, but Rare and DKC was king of those years.

originally posted by: JamesChessman
And I'm also not even really sure where the misunderstandings come from. I was glancing at Seinfeld trivia earlier today, as the quintessential 90's American sit-com... apparently Jerry's apartment always featured different Mac computers, in the corner, throughout the 90's.

^So maybe it's stuff like THAT which might give wrong impressions, because maybe Seinfeld might make it look like Americans had desktop Macs laying around... but no, we really didn't. Jerry's corner computers were an odd detail of the show, for American viewers... plus it can't really be on me to try to figure out other people's misunderstandings anyway...

In my case you can be assured that it wasn't, as I don't like what they call "humor" in the US, so I never watched Seinfeld (or other TV shows like that).

The DKC series basically had Britain ruling the home console gaming scene, in those specific 3 years. There is not an American equivalent of this, no not Vectorman and Blue Sky Software, I love them, but Rare and DKC was king of those years.

I can't comment on that, as I never used a console and, as far as I know, never knew anyone that had one.

a reply to: ArMaP

In my case you can be assured that it wasn't, as I don't like what they call "humor" in the US, so I never watched Seinfeld (or other TV shows like that).

^Now THAT is interesting. Do you realize that in the US, "Seinfeld" is normally considered the funniest, and most relatable / most brilliant sit-com ever?

I don't even watch TV shows in general but that's really the one sit-com that I'd vouch for. (But I completely understand if you dislike MOST American sit-coms, because I dislike most of them, too. "Friends" and whatever else is very unnappealing imo.)

But now I'm really wondering what DO you think is good comedy?

Is this related to "British humor" because I'm only vaguely familiar, and THAT's usually pretty bizarre lol, although Mr. Bean is universal, haha.

I can't comment on that, as I never used a console and, as far as I know, never knew anyone that had one.

^You guys didn't have / use videogame consoles in the 80's and 90's? Nintendo Entertainment System, Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis? Then Nintendo 64, and Sega Saturn, PlayStation, PS2, Sega Dreamcast, etc. You guys didn't have this stuff?!

Here I've been rattling off anecdotes about how Americans only had such consoles, and not computers, thru the 80's and most-of-the-90's...

So then what WAS your tech scene, thru the 80's and 90's?

If you guys didn't have consoles at all, then I'd expect all the more computers usage.

But you were also saying that computers were rare: Did you mean that people DID use computers but just without owning them? So like at libraries?

originally posted by: JamesChessman
^Now THAT is interesting. Do you realize that in the US, "Seinfeld" is normally considered the funniest, and most relatable / most brilliant sit-com ever?

I do, I just don't like that kind of humour.

Is this related to "British humor" because I'm only vaguely familiar, and THAT's usually pretty bizarre lol, although Mr. Bean is universal, haha.

Yes, British humour is much more my kind of humour, my favourite Rowan Atkinson's show being Blackadder.
My all time favourite is 'Allo 'Allo!, and I'm also a fan of the silly Monty Python's type of humour.

^You guys didn't have / use videogame consoles in the 80's and 90's? Nintendo Entertainment System, Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis? Then Nintendo 64, and Sega Saturn, PlayStation, PS2, Sega Dreamcast, etc. You guys didn't have this stuff?!

Very few people had them in the 80s, the 90s was the decade I heard more about console owners, and they were mostly adults that didn't have a console during the 80s.

So then what WAS your tech scene, thru the 80's and 90's?

If you guys didn't have consoles at all, then I'd expect all the more computers usage.

It was the scene in Portugal, we had consoles but not that much, as they were expensive and much less useful than a computer.

But you were also saying that computers were rare: Did you mean that people DID use computers but just without owning them? So like at libraries?

Portugal only started getting to an European level of living in the 90s, before that we were a poor country, in part because of the wars of independence in the Portuguese colonies in Africa during the 60s and 70s, that lasted more than 10 years and ended up with the military revolution of 1974 (the Carnation Revolution) that ended the 48 years long fascist regime and returned Portugal to democracy.
The loss of the colonies was also reflected in a loss of income (Angola, for example, exported petrol and diamonds, among other things), so the years after 1974 were not easy. The result was that we were still a poor country in the 1980s. Being part of EU from 1986 was a big help, but it took around 10 years for us to see the results.

So, few people had computers, and schools, always needing cash, had none (there wasn't any IT course when I was in school, only one or two universities had courses in which you could use a computer). That's why the ZX-81 first, costing the same as a bicycle, and the ZX Spectrum after it, were so important, as they allowed many of those that wanted to see how it was to work with a computer to get access to one.

That was the situation in Portugal.

a reply to: ArMaP
^Thanks for the info, I didn't know much about Portugal's modern history, like that.

Well I didn't go back through all the posts yet but I hope there is some truth emerging out of such info and descriptions, re: computer prevalence in diff. places, in past recent decades.




I didn't know that Portugal was a poor country in the 1980's, and really the US was NOT poor in the 80's, so that would be one reason that this is a confusing conversation for everyone...




Well at any rate, the 1980's in the US was really defined by the Nintendo Entertainment System (NES), I just saw a video that mentioned that possibly 1 of 3 households, had an NES, a full one-third of the US population.

Meanwhile it was also rare to have personal ownership of computers, in that same decade... as strange as it probably sounds.





It was similar into the 90's. We had the next big two home consoles, the SNES and Sega Genesis, and they lived out their lifespan into the mid-90's, all while computer ownership remained rare.

And so... such consoles were basically our replacement / equivalent... of computers in those years, including those computer games ported onto our consoles.






And I REGRET that we were not getting familiar with real computers in those years. We were entire generations growing up with console videogames, but not much familiarity w/ computers.





So in the 80's and 90's, I feel there's like 15-20 years of Americans being BEHIND whatever countries actually had kids playing with computers (while we were playing with consoles). So there's a lot of wasted potential, in those decades imo.






...What's also interesting about this, is that our consoles COULD HAVE been used more as general computers too, if the market had gone that way, but it didn't.

The NES was famous that it had been planned more for expanding into a general computer. But it didn't. (Ironically its JP name, Famicom, stood for "family computer," and plus Japan got an exclusive floppy disk drive, to attach.)

But so the Famicom / NES was originally planned for MORE general computer use, and there was planned a keyboard & mouse, but then it just never got released.





It was also famous for one of its important titles, Tetris, with a complicated history behind it: Basically the game creator held rights for a cut of sales revenue... of Tetris "computer ports."

Sadly for him, courts ruled in Nintendo's favor, that they didn't owe HIM anything for their millions and millions $$ sales of Tetris, for NES and Game Boy. Because the courts decided that they weren't "computers" for that case.



...So that's just another aspect of the failed potential of those decades... if the NES had received its planned-upgrades, into a general computer, then that would have probably been the first computer for most Americans in the 80's.







Later in the early 90's, the two big home consoles (SNES & SEGA) each received a MOUSE, but no keyboard. So they were still skirting the full functionality of a general computer.

So AFAIK there is no typing keyboard available for those 3 biggest consoles, NES in the 80's, and SNES & Sega Genesis in the earlier 90's.



However, I've managed to force some computer functionality / some educational value... out of my Genesis. Not just the computer-game ports.

But I've also legit used my Genesis to practice & learn Spanish as a second language, at least with one great title, "Pier Solar," which is a great role-playing game, with different languages.


I can also practice/learn chess with my Genesis... despite it never getting an official chess release! Russia developed their own chess title in the 90's, and it was very popular there, despite no official release. I bought a nice "repro" i.e. reproduction, of that original Russian title "Chess," and it's VERY legit gameplay. (Potentially AI that's smarter than human beings lol.)




There's also the excellent "Sega CD" which is basically an extra console, that plugs into the Genesis, so now it's a double-console that can play CD music & video, and this is really getting close to a full-function computer. For example I have an encyclopedia on CD, with some interactive video/audio:




(And I have at least one more title, Dune, on CD, that I can use to practice / learn Spanish. Plus I can play chess with Star Wars Chess.)

(And for what it's worth, Sega CD never caught on much, even though it was the most resemblance of computers and educational value, most Genesis owners never owned a Sega CD.)







So it's really interesting modern history, imo, and I definitely feel that Americans went several years there, a bit deprived of just general familiarity with home computers, when we mostly only had videogame consoles. Which could have been more upgraded into general use computers, but they didn't end up going that way.




Past that point in the mid-90's, however, the NEXT consoles actually DID start to bridge that gap, and they really started to become upgradeable into almost-full computers.

I wasn't part of that scene myself, as I loved the Genesis, and I mostly checked-out of the gaming scene afterward. But I know that Sega's next home console, the Saturn... finally DID have an optional typing-keyboard & mouse. And it could connect to the web, so I believe you could go through your email... at the very least...

I expect that it's very limited web surfing, and probably very limited as a general computer, but Saturn did take a baby-step in that direction. So did Sega's next-and-last console, the Dreamcast, in the late 90's, which I'd again assume was very limited web and computer functions, but it was there, a glimmer of potential. I think mainly Dreamcast online ability was used in only one title, Phantasy Star Online, which I believe is considered the first massive-multiplayer-online role-playing-game (MMORPG), and so it was from a console, not a computer...

Anyway I just think there was a lot of potential in those decades with more embrace of computers in the US, which just could have happened, but didn't.




Plus basically my own life, is split between pre- and post- computer & web familiarity (with the turning-point around the turn of the century there.)

So for me it was a distinctly different time period back in the 90's and 80's especially... we had NES and TV, but otherwise as an 80's kid, I was playing with He-Man action figures, and it was practically caveman days haha.

^Ya know what, I recently saw some people mentioning that Doom came out basically in 1994.

(Technically Dec. 10th, 1993, but that's realistically just the cusp of 1994 imo.)



And so Doom blew up in 1994, primarily its FREE shareware version (with an optional purchase of more stages). A very new, unique business model, that wasn't really seen before, and which allowed Doom to blow up like nothing before. All the teenagers etc. downloading / sharing the free version. Revolutionary 3D gameplay.

I've also recently seen a video describing how Doom was made with incredible loving care, which is not something that I first thought of, but it makes sense. The puzzle situations are very well-planned around collecting keys to unlock further areas to progress. Plus well-planned situations that you encounter, like scary dark rooms etc.

...I'm only kind of tangentially familiar with all this myself. I play Doom about once a year, but I play the 32x version, so it's not the original, and I only play a handful of stages till I get my fill of crazy 3D shooting and running action.




So I wasn't on the pulse with Doom in the mid-90's, but apparently 1994 was Doom's year of starting its explosive popularity, and apparently this marks 1994 as the year that more people started to want personal computers.









From that point, it seems the mid-90's was just quite the mix of the console market going crazy with ridiculous new consoles, while personal ownership of computers was catching on too.

As mentioned before, I think the 1996 headliner console releases, are clearly still marketing consumers without computers. Mario 64 was the most amazing thing in 1996, across the US and the world... and I think that's showing the lack of people who had computers to play Doom, because it's much more fun gameplay, and Mario is not amazing if people were already playing Doom.

Just compare these two 3D games:

Mario was 3D gameplay, completely bland and boring, but relatively ACCESSIBLE for the masses who had grown interested in 3D gameplay, but didn't have a computer to just play Doom etc.

3D blandness:



And again my 32x Doom, there's no question which game is far more exciting & interesting.


I think it's fair to say that Mario 64 was developed in the shadow of Doom's explosive popularity for the previous two years, before Mario came out with its bland version of 3D gameplay for the masses. So basically inspired by 3D gameplay generally started from Doom, and then ironically N64 would come out to fill that niche of folks without computers, but wanting to catch up with 3D games. What a ridiculous time period, haha.

So I think 1996 has indications of majority of people still not owning a computer, or maybe it was just a huge mix...







I think there's also a distinct period in the late-90's though, when the internet itself just exploded in popularity, and so did computers in general.

Now that I'm thinking about it, this might have been a uniquely American scene in the late 90's, we basically had a few years of being inundated with FREE CD's for FREE internet services with AOL, i.e. America Online.



This was actually a really funny time period that I'd point to probably growing in 1997-1998 onward.

AT FIRST, it seemed amazing that these free AOL CD's started appearing, for example, they'd come bundled with computer magazines, or tech magazines.

Then these CD's were bundled with practically anything, maybe health & fitness magazines, etc.


This was the same time that the same FREE AOL CD's started appearing in the mail. At first, it seemed amazing and possibly valuable -- I didn't have the ability to actually try using these CD's myself.

So I'd just collect a few, in case one day I got the chance to use it. I could dream about the possibility of free web usage with these CD's.

Eventually though, these oversaturated the free mailings, till it became obvious that it was junk mail. Without ever even using it.

I'm not even sure exactly what the CD's were even offering exactly, probably just free email and free chat services etc. but obviously someone would already need a computer with web connection, first.

So I doubt there was really anything of value being given out in all those CD's.

And the things were quite the marker of the last few years of the 90's there.

Eventually people were accumulating piles of junk mail, with these damn AOL cd's, haha

originally posted by: JamesChessman
I think it's fair to say that Mario 64 was developed in the shadow of Doom's explosive popularity for the previous two years, before Mario came out with its bland version of 3D gameplay for the masses. So basically inspired by 3D gameplay generally started from Doom, and then ironically N64 would come out to fill that niche of folks without computers, but wanting to catch up with 3D games. What a ridiculous time period, haha.

As far as I understand it, the console and computer markets overlapped a little, but mostly people who played games in computers didn't like consoles and vice versa.

And the first 3D game for a home computer appeared in 1981, for the ZX 81, 3D Monster Maze.


Yes, it's very basic, but the idea was not new.

The Nintendo 64 was created with a faster processor to be able to work with the increased processing of creating 3D scenes, and its development started much sooner than 1996, these things take a lot of time to create, as they have to decide what they want it to be able to do and then chose the hardware and software it will use, creating any thing that is needed or looking for commercially available options (although console makers usually avoid that, they prefer to create their own hardware, probably to avoid "clones").

Also, I think people playing Doom were not interested in Super Mario and vice versa, as they are completely different. And although you may find Super Mario 64 bland, the resolution was higher, and, for many people, that's the most important thing.

So I think 1996 has indications of majority of people still not owning a computer, or maybe it was just a huge mix...

I found this statist.

Computer Use In The United States: 1984

I haven't read it all yet, so I don't know if it mentions consoles.

I think there's also a distinct period in the late-90's though, when the internet itself just exploded in popularity, and so did computers in general.

It sure did.
In my personal experience, it was Windows 95 that made it easy to have Internet access, as it made connecting a modem, using the connection and a browser very easy.

I'm not even sure exactly what the CD's were even offering exactly, probably just free email and free chat services etc. but obviously someone would already need a computer with web connection, first.

Probably only their software to connect to AOL's services.

a reply to: ArMaP

As far as I understand it, the console and computer markets overlapped a little, but mostly people who played games in computers didn't like consoles and vice versa.

And the first 3D game for a home computer appeared in 1981, for the ZX 81, 3D Monster Maze.

Well sure, there were always games that resembled 3D graphics & gameplay... and before that, there were always drawings and paintings with resemblance of 3D space.

Doom just seems fair to call it... the first really popular 3D-style computer game / videogame, with the most convincing 3D graphics & gameplay, up to that point.




What Mario 64 did, was that it took that general-inspiration of 3D gameplay... and injected blandness but also, the technical accomplishment: Mostly everything is actual 3D graphics: Mario is a clump of polygons, and almost everything is.

Which is something that Doom wasn't trying to do, apparently it's just a really convincing false-3D world exploration; the enemies are flat sprites, and no view of the protagonist.





And so both games basically stand for the most popular / most advanced examples of 3D gameplay, at their respective points in time: 1994 and 1996.

Trying to describe things accurately.




For what it's worth, I glanced at Doom's wiki page and they don't have a succinct, perfect description either, but it's acknowledged as historical etc.:

Doom is one of the most significant games in video game history, frequently cited as one of the greatest games ever made. It sold an estimated 3.5 million copies by 1999; between 10 and 20 million people are estimated to have played it within two years of launch, and in late 1995, it was estimated to be installed on more computers worldwide than Microsoft's new operating system, Windows 95. Along with Wolfenstein 3D, Doom helped define the FPS genre and inspired numerous similar games, often called Doom clones. It pioneered online distribution and technologies including 3D graphics, networked multiplayer gaming, and support for custom modifications via packaged WAD files.

a reply to: ArMaP

Also, I think people playing Doom were not interested in Super Mario and vice versa, as they are completely different.

I think it's the most general theme of 3D gameplay catching popularity in the US in the mid-90's, I think those were the two single biggest games, that popularized 3D gameplay, at that time: Doom in 1994, and Mario in 1996.

It was also a time that each game was popular for several years after release, so there was continued influence, and continued impact, for years.




Doom, I think gets credit for blowing up 3D style graphics and gameplay, in the first place: 1994 onward... with the most general possible influence, spreading through the world, for years.

It's that sense that I think Doom is ultimately responsible for Nintendo spending a couple years developing Mario with real 3D graphics, and they developed their entire console based on that one game!!

I don't think that would have happened without Doom blowing up in 1994.









...And yes, Mario is indeed the blandness for the masses, with the widest possible appeal, including little kids etc.

Plus the N64 was still presumably much more affordable than most computers of the time (costing in the thousands, so similar to buying a used car).




The one BEST part of Mario 64 was simply embracing real 3D polygon graphics & gameplay. It was THAT which was amazing in 1996, and it was the first such gameplay that many / most people had ever seen. (Even computer gamers would have been impressed that Mario was rocking real 3D polygon graphics for almost-everything.)

Nintendo identified that global trend of 3D popularity, and they absolutely seized the opportunity, to embrace it, and advance it forward (with real polygons), in a new best example of 3D gameplay, that was universally appealing, & affordable / accessible, better than computers.




Anyway such games are just markers of the time period, and trends of the time.

Doom blowing up 3D gameplay, & creating a new popularity of personal computers...

Mario, 1996, was borne of that same 3D trend, from computers... plus as mentioned, I think Mario 64 really remains self-evident, it was aimed at non-computer owners, because it wouldn't be such a novelty or excitement for anyone who was already computer gaming.

And the way that the world was losing its mind over Mario in 1996, it certainly seemed to indicate that most Americans didn't have computers yet.

I imagine that this was not quite the same insanity in your area, as u mentioned that consoles never got very big.

Americans were acting like it was absolutely magic, to walk into a Blockbuster or other store, and just to control Mario in 3D space. Walking / running in a circle. Wandering a 3D environment. Jumping in and out of water.

These were novelties that... were not really novel... if people were already computer gaming.






And there's no question that the US was acting like Mario 64 was the greatest invention, since cavemen discovered fire.

I don't even love the game myself, but I just think it's a historical marker of global trends in gaming and computers.





I basically agree that an individual would be expected to prefer one game or the other, because yes their content is completely different.

But in the prism of mid-90's hysteria for 3D gaming, then both games DO share THAT basic premise, that everyone was crazy for.

And so in THAT aspect, both games are equal, and equally appealing, for the fact of 3D gameplay.





I think Mario 64's wild success, came from how Nintendo identified & filled that specific, important niche in 1996: 3D gaming, for people without computers, who were still fiending for 3D gameplay.






So I think it mainly just came down to what machines a person owned, at the time.

And I don't think most people would have ever been directly comparing the content of the two games.

And although you may find Super Mario 64 bland, the resolution was higher, and, for many people, that's the most important thing.

^I don't think THAT was really considered by most people in the US.

For one thing, the N64 graphics are notorious for being a little blurry, ON PURPOSE, straight out of the console. It was a deliberate way to "smooth out" the jagged edges of the polygons. I really dislike this.

So even if res was supposedly higher than Doom on PC: Even then, Mario is still slightly blurry, on purpose, and I expect Doom was at least clear with its pixels, regardless of claimed resolution.

It's comparing a clear lower-res with a blurrier higher-res.






Likewise I don't think most people were even comparing resolution, or overall graphics, between consoles of the time.

I'm not sure exactly how the res compares, specifically... but it's well-known that Saturn's CD format MOSTLY led to much more detailed landscapes, from the more data on CD (compared to N64 carts, limited data size, leading to bland texture environments)...

And Sega's 1996 headliner, NiGHTS, has completely better, detailed DREAM environments, over Mario 64, same year.

One favorite part is wandering a dark forest with bright glowing grass and flowers, in the darkness. They're worlds better than Mario 64 environments of the same year.





But Saturn was overlooked, while N64 won the day.




I think N64 won for a few big reasons, the name Nintendo, and mainly that mario was the perfect game for the circumstances in the world, in 1996. And also the name "N64" implies it was twice as good as the 32-bit consoles like Saturn.

a reply to: ArMaP

I found this statist.

Computer Use In The United States: 1984

I haven't read it all yet, so I don't know if it mentions consoles.

Ok cool. Here's a screenshot of the Highlights that begin the document:






At first I wondered why 1984 but cool, let's establish things. The very first Highlight says that 1984, approx. 8.2% of all US. households... had a computer.

So less than 10%. It's in the realm of what I would have estimated. Less than 1/10th computer ownership is over 90% of people NOT owning a computer, in 1984...

I was 2 yrs old, I was born in 1982. But so in the coming years, my mom would take us to the library for fun and learning, and so I'd see a handful of simple educational computer games, for only a few minutes at a time.

Meanwhile I knew one person who owned a computer, in the 80's, my wealthy uncle, who probably didn't have much use for it, I imagine, haha.

a reply to: ARM1968

Perhaps it's the Moon Based Chinese Cuisine Food building, serving Mystery Hut Meat with fried rice to any visitors.

Hey, it could be possible! Remember the floating McBarge?

i.ibb.co...

For what it's worth, if anyone is still interested in describing 90's computers usage in the US:

Here's one more AWESOME thing that I found recently:

mikeyeldey.itch.io...

This is a new project, in 2022, it's basically a port of Windows 95 onto Sega Genesis.





^This might not be exactly obvious but I think this is one more thing that is indicating the mid 90's situation of more people owing home consoles, and not computers. In the US, at least...

I think that's the general premise of the project. It's basically showing how we COULD HAVE BEEN using our Sega as a Win 95 computer, in 1995... if that's what the giant companies had wanted to do (and if that had been the direction of customer interest).

Whereas in real life, in 1995, most folks just owned home consoles, and just treated them as game machines.



So anyway it's just one more anecdotal thing, which is referencing that mid-90's split between computers, and consoles being much more prevalent. It just seems the general premise of the whole project.







Anyway the project looks awesome and I can't wait to mess around with it.

It also made me realize that apparently I've never used Win 95 myself, only Win 98, and 2000, and XP etc. I recognize the iconic parts of Win 95 like the aquamarine background and the 3D maze screensaver, but apparently that was only what I had seen on other people's computers in the mid-90's.

I hadn't realized it that I've never actually used Win 95 myself!