the egyption pharo that worsiped one god

Originally posted by LadyV
Yes, it is, very much so! I do not believe that the bible is to be taken literally as many Christians do, and I think that they take meanings wrongly, but I do believe it holds truths and historical facts.....I also believe that mythology holds truths too and have always wondered why the bible is taken as fact and not mythology.

Yes, there is a lot of historical myths like Samson and Dalila for example. If I should compare than I would compare the biblic texts until the jewish kings to Illias for example..

So I think it is mytology that contains some elements of history. But I don't believe that Moses really forced the pharao to alet him go.

I found some text dealing with possibility of jewish polyteism :

Elohim is a word translated from the original Hebrew as God. At first glance, Elohim is a plural word, the singular form being El and is used to refer specifically to the God of Israel in various parts of the Bible. However, some argue that it is a usage analogous to the Royal We used in other languages, to express the sovereignty of God, and that this interpretation is supported by the surrounding adjectives and verbs taking singular cases rather than plural as would otherwise be expected. However, the kings of Israel and Judah never used the Royal We, which seems to be a more modern convention.

Some argue from the variation between Yahweh and Elohim, and the references in the Psalms to El assigning Yahweh to the tribe of Israel as their protecting deity, as well as the extensive finds of statues of Asherah (allegedly Yahweh's wife) throughout Israel, and the presence of similar gods El and Yaw in early religions surrounding Israel, that the Hebrews were not originally monotheistic, but rather henotheistic. This is in contrast to the monotheism of the theological descendants of the ancient Hebrew religion—Judaism, and Islam, and the monotheism of some forms of Christianity (although many strains of Christianity have been and continue to be henotheistic, acknowledging angels, demons, saints, and acknowledging the existence of other, lesser Gods, to whom God is superior. Some accuse Christianity of being polytheistic for asserting the existence of God the Father AND God the Son), but Christian scholars regard that as a blatant misrepresentation.

try link
alleged incosistencies in Bible

[edit on 30-3-2005 by longbow]

In the 17th Century BC the Egyptians were having problems with Asiatic semites called Hyksos. There seems to be some debate (from what I've read in wikipedia) over whether the Hyksos made an outright invasion or infiltrated quietly and ten one day just said, "hey, there's so dang many of us that we think we'll be in charge now". This is probably where any historical Joseph would have been- as an administrator in Hyksos controlled Egypt.
The Hyksos get driven out and all but erased from history at the start of the 18th dynasty around 1570BC. It's certainly doesn't seem like a stretch to imagine that any of the semetic people who didn't make tracks when the Thebans strated taking their kingdom back would have ended up as slaves, so that would be my guess as to how the Jews ended up as slaves.

Now as for when Moses came along to get them out of there. I'm not going to presume to argue too much with egyptology since I just don't know enough about it to provide a very convincing refutuation of its conclusions, but I will just mention the explanation offered by the Ryrie Study Bible which somehow has managed to stay on my shelf through several years of religious flip-flopping on my part.

For some reason, whoever wrote the notes in my bible believes that the pharaoh Moses was running away from in Exodus 2:23 (after killing an Egyptian taskmaster) was Thutmose-III. After the pharaoh in question kicks the bucket, Moses finally decides its time to go back to Egypt (after hiding with Midians for some time) and free the Hebrews. This would mean Moses was dealing with Amenhotep II.

Now we get to play the name game, which is a big part of ametuer historical speculation. (Just remember that I'm only the messenger, this isn't my theory).
Amenhotep was eventually replaced by Thutmose IV, conqueror of syria. We play the name game by converting Thutmose to another form- thutmosis, then hack off thut, which refers to the egyptian god thoth, and we have mosis, or moses; hypoethetically an egyptian ruler who renounced the name of a pagan god and went on to conquer Syria under the name Moses.
Those who support this theory would probably also bring up that 1. Thutmose IV, being a descendent of Thutmose I, didn't really belong in the Egyptian nobility. Thutmose I was a common soldier who had attained great rank then suceeded Amenhotep I because that pharaoh died without an heir. and 2. Thutmose IV may not have been intended to ever rule- he never co-ruled with his father- but came to power as the result of some kind of 'miracle' connected to his uncovering of he sphinx. 3. Two pharaohs later, Akhenaten showed up with his monotheism.


All that being said, there is plenty of reason to go with the Ramses the Great answer as well. For example, not long after his reign, the Sea People started hurting some of the same people that Hebrews were supposed to have fought when they entered the promised land. It might lead one to wonder if the recently freed Hebrews had played some role in those events, or possibly just taken credit for it.

If I remember correctlly most egyption people at the time didnt want to worship only one god and many secretly did just as they did before this Heretic Pharo.

Also soon after he died they publicly went back to the many gods as of old.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
If I remember correctlly most egyption people at the time didnt want to worship only one god and many secretly did just as they did before this Heretic Pharo.

Also soon after he died they publicly went back to the many gods as of old.

That's what I saw on the TV special. The people loved their gods and felt that the lesser gods protected them, and suddenly they had to STOP worshipping the gods that they loved and that they thought loved them and worship this big thing that nobody had ever heard of.

Most of them did what YOU would do if Bush suddenly showed up and said "The official religion of the US is DishWasherdom. You will now worship my Amana Dishwasher!"

Plus I'm sure that the priest of all these lesser ignored gods were pretty unhappy to be out of a job. I'm sure there was some grumbling about that issue.

Originally posted by savannah
Plus I'm sure that the priest of all these lesser ignored gods were pretty unhappy to be out of a job. I'm sure there was some grumbling about that issue.

Yup, not only grumbiling as I already said after Akhenaten's death they razed the capital he founded to the ground and Akhenaten, Smenkhkare, Tutankhamun, and Ay (his sucessors) were excised from the official lists of Pharaohs by ancient egyptian historicans. They must have really hated him.

Originally posted by Indellkoffer


That's what I saw on the TV special. The people loved their gods and felt that the lesser gods protected them, and suddenly they had to STOP worshipping the gods that they loved and that they thought loved them and worship this big thing that nobody had ever heard of.

Yeah I remember hearing that most city or town had their own lesser god that much like a home town god or perhaps like a Mascot but more important. Some of them were shared and of course, the biggest cities had the most important gods.

So Im sure people had alot strong feelings for their home town god.

Like someone eles said they must have really hated this pharoh as I believe erasing a person records and destroying his images was a very high insult back then. Like one of the worst things you could do or something.

Thanks for the links guys, I too saw that show on TLC but these links sure gave allot more info into the background of the Pharaoh Akhenaten ....IMO....

Ancient Eygpt fasinates me but I am a little confused now that I sort of understand the Dynasty's a little better..

Here is my question, is it not commonly believed that Ramses The Great build the Pyrimads and possibly the Shynx?? If so can't that Theory be debunked right now seeing as how there are Hyroglifs (spelling sorry..) during Akhenaten's reign showing the Shynx worshiping the Sun God?? Wasn't Akhenaten BEFORE Ramsses Time??

Did I mis-read something or possibly have my dates a$$ backwards here???

Thanks all and GREAT thread BTW..

Originally posted by like2learn
Here is my question, is it not commonly believed that Ramses The Great build the Pyrimads and possibly the Shynx?? If so can't that Theory be debunked right now seeing as how there are Hyroglifs (spelling sorry..) during Akhenaten's reign showing the Shynx worshiping the Sun God?? Wasn't Akhenaten BEFORE Ramsses Time??

No one ever believed Ramzes built the pyramids. In fact during his reign (and whole new kingdom) there were no longer pyramids build (mainly because they tried to hide the tombs before the thieves). However he has build many huge temples and such stuff.

list of pharaohs

You will find some of the answers here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Akhenaten was indeed the pharoah who brought in the one-god religion around the time of the exodus. Prior to him there was a marked change from Amun to the Atun where the Amun was elevated to head God above all others, this was in the times of the ThutMOSES pharoahs, obviously reflective of the era of Joseph and Issac's exploits in Egypt. Akhenaten also declared himself the sole high priest and only allowed direct contact with God.

Further connection comes from Akhenaten leaving Thebes and moving north to find his city in Amarna in the desert wasteland. Akhenaten or Amenhotep IV as was his predecessor Amenhotep III were major contributors to the Karnak temple area as well as other opulent sites. The Aramna kings list also sheds some light on "Seth" and Thoth when compared to the other king lists. Joshua followed in the period of Rameses II, where Joshua speaks of his many conquests, as does a stele from Rameses II speak of his, in fact they both claim to have conquered the last four cities named in Joshua. As the Israelites moved north through the land conquering as they travelled, so too did the pharoahs extend their holdings northward.

Of note, is that Cairo was also referred to as babylon by the Egyptians, UR was the name given to Ra's boat, The children of Amon mentioned in the OT were at one times forbidden by God to be attacked, Amon of course representing the Egyptians after Akhenaten's reign ended (unknown why) his city deserted, and his name and image struck from all record found in upper Egypt. The Egyptian literature known as the Admonitions of Ipuweh speaks of great turmoil in the country where Egyptians rebellef against Egyptians, sacked their temples and pyramids, and stole their secrets. Also found at Armana on the doorposts of the houses was the equivalent to the Jewish Mezzuzah.

The Biblical heroes were these very Egyptian kings.

reply to post by drogo


I am watching a version of Ancient Astronauts on History Channel I've never seen before. This Pharaoh appears to be a woman in statues and photos. They say this Pharaoh wasn't as vain as earlier Kings who were depicted in carvings as broad shouldered and thin waist-ed.
He (?) is small shouldered and small waist-ed with large hips. Married to Nefertiti so I guess he had to be a man right? Unless?
Anyway it is thought he, who also had an elongated head was a hybrid human and ET. That is perhaps why all trace of him was removed and his statues defaced.
He made a radical switch to the one God idea when he had a visitation and was instructed to do so. At least that is what they claim on the show. It ruined him, and the people quickly returned to many Gods after his death.

who what was pharoah ahkenaten..www.abovetopsecret.com...

Very interesting that this should be brought up today. I was the library earlier and randomly picked up a book about him in the childrens section. It stated that unlike other pharaohs who wanted their image amended to perfection, he was the only one who wanted to be depicted as he truly was.

Originally posted by rusethorcain
reply to post by drogo

 

I am watching a version of Ancient Astronauts on History Channel I've never seen before. This Pharaoh appears to be a woman in statues and photos. They say this Pharaoh wasn't as vain as earlier Kings who were depicted in carvings as broad shouldered and thin waist-ed.
He (?) is small shouldered and small waist-ed with large hips. Married to Nefertiti so I guess he had to be a man right? Unless?

Sometimes I just want to take the producers of the History Channel out and smack them over the head with a stack of library books. There's a lot of interesting things about him, and they miss those and tell you "gosh, he looks like a girl" and so forth. There's no question about his sexual preferences, though. He had four or five wives and eight or more children.

His images aren't as strange as the Discovery Channel would lead you to believe. One of the larger statues DOES look strange when you look at it face-to-face. When you see it in position (where the statue of the god-king is MUCH larger than you), his face looks normal. He looks sensual... and arrogant (they had a lot of his artifacts with the King Tut exhibit that was going around, since he was Tut's father.)

The attempt to remove his name had to do with the idea of destroying him both in this world and in the next. He forced (to some extent) his monotheism on others (they changed their names to mention Aten) -- *and* (most significantly) he took the gold and treasure from the temples of the other gods and declared that they all belonged to him (and he was "the one god.")

The priests loathed him... except for the priests of Aten.

Then he ignored requests for help from his client kings (kings who were under him) because he was so busy changing the religion of his people. His neglect of foreign policy may have tempted others to think about taking Egypt down.

Then he got this grand vision to build a new city -- out in the middle of the desert. When plague and famine rose in the land, the rumbling grew louder. THEN he decided to move the royal necropolis (place where people were buried) to the east (sunrise) side of the Nile from its traditional place on the west (sunset) side of the Nile.

Wikipedia's got a good summary: en.wikipedia.org... There's still a lot to know about the period and a lot of scholarly arguments over the evidence. Work still continues on the Armana site, so there's a lot more to know about him.

Originally posted by dbates
You are thinking of the Pharoah named Akhnaten. He lived from 1375–1358 B.C. which was long after Joseph came to Egypt. I suppose that It's possible that Joseph had some influence on his religion, but since Joseph lived around 1800 and Moses led the Israelites out around 1450 BC we can tell that this wasn't the Paroah that was alive during Joseph's time.

[edit on 23-3-2005 by dbates]

Well, it's actually not that clear-cut.
Dating the Exodus is almost impossible, as is dating some of the dynastic reigns in ancient Egypt.
When Pharaohs were excised, it usually went along the lines of a later ruler adding the excised rulers dates to his own.
This is what happened with Hatshepsut as well, removed from history by her successor (possibly Amenophis II, possibly Thutmosis IV).

With Amenophis IV - his name beforehe banned the old gods & took up the worship of the Aten (or Sun God/Solar Disc) and took the name Akhenaten, it gets very complicated indeed.
He was indeed the "Heretic" Pharaoh, and he was the original composer of Psalm 104, or as he would have known it "The Hymn to the Aten".
Oddly enough, this is inscribed in the tomb of Aye, who succeeded Tutankhamen (formerly Tutankhaten) who is credited with restoring the original gods again, despite his alleged funerary finds being almost exclusively armana period stuff, complete with the Aten disk prominent in many places.

Moses must have been a member of the Armana court originally, because he got all his religion from Akhenaten.
There is even a serious theory that there were papyri found in Tut's tomb treasures (at least, the ones that Carter & Carnarvon did not steal) that gave details of this, including Moses' egyptian ancestry.

[edit on 28-7-2010 by neil wilkes]

reply to post by Byrd


I am sorry if I gave this impression the History Channel depicted him as feminine. Looking at the statues, I derived that myself.
If he was not feminine it seemed the statures rendered of him, were distinctly feminine. He did seem "otherworldly" and like Moses seemed to choose a harder untraveled path, one that was destined for failure, at least in his lifetime.
I think it is curious he followed what he understood was one God telling him to disregard the others. He set himself up to lose everything in order to maintain this unpopular notion. It may have been about the money but I did not get that out of it. I could be wrong.
This is a very curious historical figure. It is interesting to learn more about him. Thanks for the link.

Originally posted by rusethorcain
reply to post by Byrd

 

I am sorry if I gave this impression the History Channel depicted him as feminine. Looking at the statues, I derived that myself.

Actually, that's one of the terms they mention in discussing the drawings. Some have also tried to portray him as handicapped. I think that his features are very sensual ... as you can see from his royal portrait here in the Cairo Museum. That was the bust that was on tour, and seen in person it's very compelling and commanding:
www.ancient-egypt.co.uk...

The change in the style of Egyptian art during his reign was remarkable. It carries forward to some extent, but the pharaohs (like the Roman emperors who came later) preferred the image of themselves as large and strong and handsome (in a certain cultural style) and went away from the "this is what we REALLY look like" art.

I think it is curious he followed what he understood was one God telling him to disregard the others. He set himself up to lose everything in order to maintain this unpopular notion.

There's quite a bit more to it. He sets himself up as the only son of the living god Aten after some moves to destroy the powerful religious sect that worshipped Amun (Aten was a very minor deity) -- AND as the only one who could talk to Aten and understand the god.

To the people, this was confusing and outrageous -- they must have felt that they had a lunatic on the throne. Osiris was kicked out of his place as the ruler and guide of the underworld and Ahkenaten took his place. People were expected to give offerings to him.

He set his royal wives (including his two daughters that he married) up as priestesses in their own temples with vast estates. He sets Nefertiti up as the goddess who protects his sarcophagus (taking over the part of Isis). She later also becomes kind of a "high priest" for the "cult of ME, Ahkenaten.") He enjoys the cult of himself... and lets Egyptian power and resources weaken.

It's hard to see him as being like Moses or other Biblical figures. He lived a life of unimaginable luxury and privilege, worshiped and given offerings and money as the only god of Egypt, his slightest whim becoming the law for the country. There were few who truly mourned him when he died.
www.bbc.co.uk...

i thought moses was just a representation of the age of the Ram (aries) zodiac.