Roswell: The First Witness featuring Maj. Jesse Marcel's Secret Diary

a reply to: mirageman

not all opinions are equal

Sorry, dude, I was educated in respecting all and any opinion as valid. You do not have the authority to say who's opinion is or not valid. Learn it.

substantial evidence

I'm waiting to see your substantial evidence backing the nature of the balloon that crashed at Roswell. Do yo have any or are we going to expect just another childish meme?

originally posted by: KilgoreTrout

So (moving on) why do you think that Stanton Friedman was so hot to trot in 1968-70 to commence building a narrative that the remnants of a balloon clearly and tracibly of terrestrial origin and manufacture was a crashed 'flying saucer'?

Stanton Friedman was someone that refused to back down once he believed something. I'm guessing it was an ego issue. This was shown to me with his interview below.
As I pointed out before, he had a radio discussion with Robert Sheaffer about the Alaska incident. Jim Oberg has a great explanation. Friedman was convinced by witnesses they saw a mothership. When it was revealed to him through evidence that it was actually a rocket reentry, he hemmed and hawwed about it. When asked why people didn't see both incidents if there was a UFO and a reentry, he didn't have an answer. Any scientifically minded person is going to be open and willing to accept a prosaic explanation and conceed. He wasn't and obviously had a different agenda in general. He's made a lot of money off Roswell as well as the Hill story and that could have been a huge factor. Admit he was wrong about Alaska admits he could be wrong elsewhere. I think $$ speaks louder than the truth at times.
I tried to ask him questions through the AMA here, but it went ignored. I questioned Friedman's integrity.

a reply to: Direne

If all opinions are valid then so are ones you don't like

....I'm waiting to see your substantial evidence backing the nature of the balloon that crashed at Roswell.

Why?

I've not stated what the nature of the balloon was. Or even if it was a balloon that was found on the Foster Ranch.

You have stated it was something linked to experiments at Hanford. Which first seemed interesting. But you have not produced any evidence to substantiate it.

So do you have any? Or can we dismiss it and move on?

a reply to: mirageman

We? If you wish to move on, just write I. Or are you also deciding when and who move on?? So big is your ego, mate?

My poition has been clearly stated: I do believe what crashed was a balloon because the debris found is clearly in my mind the one you should expect for a crahing balloon. I'm sure you'll understand an 'alien' craft crashing and leaving behind balsa wood is an unacceptable conclusion.

Now, the official version is that it was a ballonn indeed what crashed, and that the balloon was part of a so called Mogul Project having to do with testing whether using microphones one would be able to detect Soviet atomic bomb tests. I simply remarked that in order for you to test that possibility, you obviously need an atomic bomb test happening, and it is a proven fact that the Soviets did not ran any such tests because, simply, they didn't have a bomb to test in 1947. I therefore conclude the Mogul Project stated goal makes no sense.

In trying to search for an unstated goal for that project, it could have to do with what the scientific literature at the time was discussing: the medium and short-term effects of a radioactive plume and its distribution, in order to anticipate defense strategies, and in order to explore the possibility of using the radioactive plume as a force multiplier against the enemy. And I also found that the Green Run Project (whose existence is a fact, unless you also deny its existence) has no goals stated because that part of the project was not disclosed as part of the pertinent FOIA (take the time to check the Hanford site for details).

Finally, I connect both conclusions and arrive at a more than plausible conclusion, the one you, a self-assigned expert in I don't know exactly what, called 'ridiculous'.

Now I guess you could illuminate and enlighten me with your evidences about what really happened at Roswell? Or you have no hypotheses, no theories, except just criticizing others' opinions?

Mocking can be a useful tool at times; it certainly has an ancient historical precedent. Now a group like TTSA for example, that took itself far too seriously when it had nothing of substance and many worshippers was a prime (and in my opinion) valid target for mocking. And as expected, they are now all-but no more.

Of course on ATS, there are certainly large and colorful personalities, and it might be tempting to mock some of them, but I do believe that is against the terms and conditions of ATS; not that those will exist for much longer; who knows what the new owners will do.

I also am quite observant that the words 'interesting to note', 'hypothesis', 'theory' and 'needs more research' are seldom used as often as they presumably should be.

I don't know.. I think that some of us can get stuck in perceptual ruts.. you know.. stuck in mocking mode, third person god's eye arrogance mode, reflexive get pinned down on nothing mode; all these different modes..

and it's understandable; trying to solve the riddle of 'UFOs' is a daunting task, full of confidence men and woman, and the most astonishing collection of social and o governmental baggage.

We would all be well-advised to attempt to bring our A game as much as possible.

In a case like "Roswell", it appears to be possible to seize upon much more hard evidence than for a lot of cases, so perhaps some personality styles aren't as useful in this case as in other cases.

For example my personality style isn't so useful for 'Roswell', so I let SME like Ectoplasm8 present their high quality work
and admire it.

I suppose all those words translate to, "Can't we just all get along!"

LOL.

Kev

Wasn't Green run in 1949?

Is the suggestion that it was earlier done in secret during Roswell's time?

Green run, Mogul, Roswell, or whatever, one thing for sure we can all agree on is that the US government then and certainly now sucks for all kinds of reasons not restrictive to only ufology issues.

a reply to: Willtell

Is the suggestion that it was earlier done in secret during Roswell's time?

No. The suggestion id that the Soviet first atomic test was in 1949, therefore there is no way you can monitor its detonation in 1947. See the difference?

a reply to: Direne

I'm beating my own dead horse, but, it's my theory that it was the launching of a balloon flight connected to the Mogul project and not full Mogul recorded array. This was never deeply discussed and glossed over by the so-called experts. I showed the following in my thread:

- Service/research flights existed in 1947 and were part of the Mogul project.
- Mogul moved from NY to Alamogordo in June 1947.
- Service/research flights were being launched out of Alamogordo in June 1947.
- The crash site was 90+/- miles away to the north of Alamogordo.
- Flights were trending towards the Roswell area in June 1947 by winds.
- Charles Moore's drawing of what was being launched matches exactly the type array of what would have crashed.
- Charles Moore had been testing different size balloons and their material in NM in 1947.
- Moore had been using kite-like radar targets in June to test for tracking and reception of White Sands V-2 ground radar.
- Mac Brazel discussed the exact material make-up of balloons and radar targets by Moore in 1947.
- Marcel discussed the same material.

As far as I go, this is only part of the evidence for me to reach this conclusion. This was done only after looking over the Roswell Report. Based on reports written, technical drawings, photographs, documents, etc. not based solely on someones word. I tried to include those photographs and reports to show this wasn't a quickly based opinion reached through he/she said. It would have to be a massive conspiracy involving many people to make up that up. The Green Run project would need equal data with supporting evidence to sway my personal opinion.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

a group like TTSA for example, was a prime (and in my opinion) valid target for mocking

Yes, Kev, but even when mocking you must know how to mock. See, the guys at TTSA are in the open, with their names being public, while mirageman acts hidden behind a nickname. If he want to make pics ridiculizing the guys, do it with your real name in front of you. Do not be a coward, don't make the Internet a worse place than what it is.

On the other hand, have you thought those guys may have sons, daughters, and beloved ones who also use the Internet? What would they feel seeing their parents mocked with insulting memes? Ever thought about it? No empathy? Mirageman has been doing that for quite a lot time, in the covert, and nobody here ever said a word against that unnecessary and cruel behaviour. That's bullying. No concessions here.

Ridiculizing people is not the way to go. No wonder the guys at TTSA would take legal actions.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8


Ok then. A Mogul balloon.

a reply to: Direne

Well now, your point certainly has considerable merit.

I myself was bullied growing up, at one point seized by my penis and drug around the school yard in front of all the teachers, deeply bleeding.

I do NOT approve of bullying.

Frankly I have NOT approved of much of the 'humor' aimed at TTSA.

But on the other hand, when you have people like an ex-assistant secretary of defense promoting a picture of a mylar party balloon from 2005 as proof of UFOs, that would certainly incite quite the mocking.

The people who feel that they can peddle disinformation at will, shame us all, and no amount of polite dialogue seems to ever reach through the nonsense.. so I understand the frustration and endless mocking.

I suppose to avoid this sort of mocking one might be tempted to use 'twilight language' ;-)

For the record, I spent about a year on Twitter UNDER MY REAL NAME and I said some very provocative things, and took it like a man, so to speak.

But I also understand the need to have a private identity.. I've had SO MANY death threats while on ATS.

And, as a matter of fact, it was against the Terms and Conditions to NOT hide your identity.

In the very beginning I was offering to post photos of myself and 'insiders' and it was not allowed by ATS staff.

I certainly understand your perspective on bullying.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

For the record, I spent about a year on Twitter UNDER MY REAL NAME and I said some very provocative things, and took it like a man, so to speak.

I made some political drawings and posted on Twitter and got the same treatmet at times. I always laughed it off😆

a reply to: Direne

I was trying to establish whether your theory has anything to substantiate it beyond the initial idea. But you seem to have got irritated because you were being challenged to substantiate it with something more and couldn't or wouldn't do so.

So let's start again....Here [in your own words] is what you have said in the thread regarding your theory that Roswell and Mogul are somehow tied into a cover up of Roswell.

I believe the object crashing at Roswell was certainly a balloon

Agree - The evidence does strongly suggest this.

.. I find it readily stupid for the military to try to keep secret the use of sounding balloons for long-distance detection of sound waves generated by Soviet atomic bomb tests, especially when the first Soviet atomic bomb test was carried out in 1949

Disagree - You can't use hindsight in this way. In 1947 the US could not know if or when the USSR would test an atomic weapon. Nor remain ignorant of any such test. The principal of measuring sound waves in the upper atmosphere was seen as one possible solution to detecting this. Even if ultimately Mogul was deemed too expensive.

....My take is there were efforts to measure radiation in the upper atmosphere using balloons in order to characterize the radioactive plume dynamics.

Disagree - Unless you can show there is the evidence for this in mid-1947?

According to the Hanford Project Website, this classified experiment deliberately released 8,000 curies of radioiodine during a single event occurring over two days. ...Before the 1949 release, there were minor experiments (one in 1944, one in 1945, another one in 1946, and two in 1947).... To my mind, the balloon crashing at Roswell was not a Project Mogul balloon, but a Green Run Project balloon

Disagree - Unless you can prove when the experiments in 1947 took place and then how these balloons could land on the Foster Ranch? What did a 1947 Green Run balloon consist of? Can you provide pictures of sketches?

....All in all, better for the military to state the balloon was one of Project Mogul than to admit they planned for 5 years the deliberate release of highly radioactive maerial to the atmosphere in order for them to study the effects of the fallout on the population they were supposed to defend.

Disagree - You have not established anything to link Green Run to Roswell [see above]. Nor why it was revived as a UFO case in the 80s only for the government to then uses Mogul to explain it away.

....[The USSR] had no test site in which to test their bombs, and hence no way to produce weak noises in the atmosphere that could be picked up by any balloon floating in the skies on New Nexico. ... Therefore, there was no need for the Americans to build Mogul balloons in 1947

Disagree - How would the USA know the USSR had no ability or facility to test atomic bombs until 1949. It was 1947 remember.

.... what most likey happened was that the Americans initiated the Mogul Project to keep the Soviets focus off the relevant developments in military research, much as they succeeded in diverting the public focus from Green Run to Mogul Project, up to the point there are innumerable and countless documentaries about Roswell aliens, and the Mogul Project, but no decent documentary about Green Run

Disagree - What evidence is there that Mogul was designed to keep the Soviet focus off military research? Or the focus from Green Run to Mogul?

You also claimed

Now, the official version is that it was a ballonn indeed what crashed, and that the balloon was part of a so called Mogul Project having to do with testing whether using microphones one would be able to detect Soviet atomic bomb tests.

I simply remarked that in order for you to test that possibility, you obviously need an atomic bomb test happening, and it is a proven fact that the Soviets did not ran any such tests

No you don't require an atomic bomb. Any more than you need a burglar to test a burglar alarm. Mogul tested for sound waves. So all it needed to do was measure 'sound'. Mogul was also concerned with flying balloons at a constant-level. Which is something it succeeded in doing.

So I don't see much merit in your theory as it currently stands.

a reply to: mirageman

the thing I love about Ectoplasm8's VERY DEFT argument is that intermediate states of Mogul were being flown (presumably in case Russia would be exploding nukes, they would have something to monitor it with.

I love the notion of Green Run too, but the case isn't currently as solidly presented, IMHO, which I believe you were also saying, but not necessarily very nicely.

Kev

a reply to: Direne

I'm not an expert on this issue and don't think it's useful to minutely research at this time, but they may have thought the Soviets we testing or getting ready to try and felt it necessary to be prepared when and if they do.

There are documented facts about Project Mogul, which doesn't indicate it was a FAKE project to hide Roswell's secrets.
And since they did cease Mogul in 1949, maybe that is another indication of the mission's integrity since they knew Russia had the bomb by then. I'm not sure, but further research may indicate something.

a reply to: mirageman

In 1947 the US could not know if or when the USSR would test an atomic weapon.

Agree. I have not stated the opposite. The had to monitor for radiation, first with balloons, then with jets. The partial story of how they did it is here:

NSA Archives

Relevant parts are:

"Air Weather Service plane controlled by the secret U.S. Air Force organization, Air Force Office of Atomic Energy/1 [AFOAT/1], had collected radiological debris produced by the test and that an Air Force contractor confirmed that the material was from an atomic test."

" The plane carried special filters designed to pick up the radiological debris that an atmospheric atomic test would inevitably create. So far none of the flights in the Northern Pacific had picked up such debris, but after this flight returned to Eilson and a huge Geiger counter checked the filters, the technicians detected radioactive traces."

"An intelligence report from 1948 on East German production of calcium metal of such high purity that intelligence analysts believed “beyond any shadow of a doubt” that it was “intended for an atomic energy project.” Calcium metal helped produce the uranium reactor fuel that generated plutonium for Moscow’s first bomb."

But for the plane to carry special filters designed to pick up the radiological debris you first need to design those filters. Not an esy task. The paper I mentioned above, dated 1947, was the final design. To arrive to that design, they tested using balloons.

show there is the evidence efforts to measure radiation in the upper atmosphere using balloons in mid-1947

The problem with using a jet is that you need the jet to peform sorties and follow specific transects, and pray to have luck of picking up radiation. Using balloons is hence cheaper, in particular once you have solved the problem of keeping the balloon at a constant altitude.

how these balloons could land on the Foster Ranch

Again, the balloons are not launched from Hanford. They are launched from Los Alamos.

What did a 1947 Green Run balloon consist of

A high-altitude balloon, fitted with the aerosol collecting device, only after replaced with a Geiger counter.

Can you provide pictures of sketches?

DENIED.

How would the USA know the USSR had no ability or facility to test atomic bombs until 1949

They have intel reports, as stated in the NSA Archives link above. See, to build a bomb you need a lot of tasks to be done in the first place (building the facilities, extract the mineral, enrich the mineral, and so on, things requiring a lot of people and hard to hide). US was expecting the Soviets to have the bomb by around 1955, best case, and by 1950, worst case.

Mogul tested for sound waves. So all it needed to do was measure 'sound'.

Any evidence of how they tested the capability to measure these sound waves? Pictures? Sketches? They were not suppose to measure any sound , just atomic blast-induced sounds so you obviously need to a sound source, and there is no evidence the Americans tested any nuclear device to just test their Mogul balloons. The simple explanation is this: there were no such atomic-blast monitoring balloons based on listening at wave sounds in the upper atmosphere.

I, too, have no problem with speculative possibilities but recognize that proof would be useful in that regard, but we can't always get confirmation. So it seems to me Mogul has the most resonating facts behind it.
Primarily, since Green run wasn't even there in 47.

One can turn that argument around and say, well, neither was the Russian tests done. But the answer to that is that though the US government is dumb there not that dumb to not prepare for something they know is happening as the Russian bomb.

Stalin had given his super-scientist 5 years to get it done from the Hiroshima and Nagasaki mass murder in 1945. And one didn't deny Stalin what he wanted and lasted long.

a reply to: Willtell

No. They ceased Mogul because they, at last, had jets fitted with the aerosol collecting devices. Would they have known radiation is persistent and fall out to the ground you wouldn't have required neither balloons, nor jets. The knowledge about what is a fallout, how it behaves in the atmosphere, how is deposited on the ground, and how does affect humans requires just one thing: dropping a bomb. Or... having Hanford to release radioactive material. They opted for this solution, for obvious reasons.

But just one thing. If you all assume the existence of Green Run Project, and if we agree it is a fact, can anyone tell me what was the purpose? What was the goal of the Green Run experiment? Anyone?

How does what we can safely discern from the Ramey memo fit the Mogul explanation?