It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Bush/Clinton/Obama Uni-Party Sold Us Out To China

page: 1
27
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:
+4 more 
posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 04:26 AM
link   
The article is mostly about Laura Bush and Michelle Obama joining forces to raise money that President Trump is withholding from WHO while an investigation is going on into the WHO's ineptness and being the mouth piece for the Chinese Communist propaganda machine.

I would imagine those who have been around for awhile will remember how it was thought that helping China out of its' poverty China would see the light and become another capitalist country with a growing middle class income and happiness for all. What these great thinkers missed was the total control a totalitarian government can and will excerpt over its' unarmed population and then the world if given half a chance. Hind sight is always clearer if one cares to look, IMO.

Bush also allowed China into the World Trade Organization, like a good globalist.

Clinton sold American technology to the communists during his reign. He famously had Chinese lobbyists renting out the Lincoln bedroom in the White House. How deep his rabbit hole goes we will probably never know.

And then there’s Obama, who finished what those before him had started, and allowed the complete hollowing out of American manufacturing to the Chinese mainland. We are seeing the fruits of his work now as the stockpiles of medical equipment in the face of the pandemic were bare, and we can’t even make our own medicine.



Regarding Trump’s attempts during the campaign to talk about the return of American manufacturing, Obama declared,

“Well, how exactly are you going to do that? What exactly are you going to do? There’s no answer to it…He just says, ‘Well, I’m going to negotiate a better deal.’ Well, what, how exactly are you going to negotiate that? What magic wand do you have? And usually the answer is, he doesn’t have an answer.”

creativedestructionmedia.com... atfinger




posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 04:33 AM
link   
You know sky, a few of us live overseas and the country we live in also has seen the manufacturing jobs disappear to China. Japan is a classic example. Now the govt. is saying with this virus situation, its expected to see 1 million unemployed soon.
I say those figures are way too low. With Tokyo and it surrounding areas of 24 million and the tourist industry employs over a million including the airlines, this 1 million is total BS.



posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 04:50 AM
link   
Sounds good but you included a Republican President with Clinton and Obama as someone who's bad and not in our best interests. I can't give you a star, I'm sorry.

Only exclusive Dem bashing is popular and I want to fit in. Bush was a great man, father and son. They did alot for the country and the American people. Had Jr. not beat Gore in 2000, Saddam Hussein would still be alive and ISIS would been given weapons of mass destruction. The Taliban would still be terrorizing Afghanistan.



posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 05:11 AM
link   

originally posted by: musicismagic
You know sky, a few of us live overseas and the country we live in also has seen the manufacturing jobs disappear to China. Japan is a classic example. Now the govt. is saying with this virus situation, its expected to see 1 million unemployed soon.
I say those figures are way too low. With Tokyo and it surrounding areas of 24 million and the tourist industry employs over a million including the airlines, this 1 million is total BS.


All the countries who have let China in to buy the companies or rip off state secrets are hurting. We lost a million jobs in the tourist industry alone the first couple of weeks of March and now that the country is shut down no telling how many more... If there is a silver lining in any of this COVID-19 stuff maybe it will be countries waking up to just how far they have traveled down the Chinese directed road.

If you dance with the devil long enough he will have your soul someone once said. Hopefully some countries can pull back before it is to late...for some it is already to late as their politicians and countries have already been sold out.. Self sufficiency is good for people just like it is good for a country.



posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 05:15 AM
link   
All Presidents starting with Nixon sold us out to China. Go read a book about the US and China relationship. It was Nixon who opened up trading with access to China's slave labor. We even cleaned and dredged their rivers filled with junk boats to facilitate more trade. Before that it was impossible to trade with them. Large boats could not make it through China's main waterways.

Once trade took off look what happened. Every President has steadily sold out American workers and families. Quality of goods and materials have declined, massive trade deficits, lowered wages, obtuse environmental laws making it impossible to keep businesses in the US and corporate raiding on a massive scale.



posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 05:22 AM
link   
I am just as guilty. A demand for cheap Chinese goods, and no appreciation for labor across the board by the everyday consumer did not help.

Then you add in the not in may back yard mind set for new factories.



posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 05:27 AM
link   

originally posted by: Stupidsecrets
All Presidents starting with Nixon sold us out to China. Go read a book about the US and China relationship. It was Nixon who opened up trading with access to China's slave labor. We even cleaned and dredged their rivers filled with junk boats to facilitate more trade. Before that it was impossible to trade with them. Large boats could not make it through China's main waterways.

Once trade took off look what happened. Every President has steadily sold out American workers and families. Quality of goods and materials have declined, massive trade deficits, lowered wages, obtuse environmental laws making it impossible to keep businesses in the US and corporate raiding on a massive scale.


You are correct and I do believe (off the top of my head) that was around 1972. Russia and China were having their occasional border disputes with some shooting. What better way to help block Russia than with a true and trusted Chinese friend..

I wish Taiwan could take over the mainland and not he other way around.



posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 06:02 AM
link   

originally posted by: Stupidsecrets
Every President whose campaign was financed by corporate interests has steadily sold out American workers and families.

There. Fixed it for ya.



posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 06:38 AM
link   
a reply to: 727Sky

Hey don't forget Bill Clinton's (treasonous) 'ChinaGate' exploits - good job it was covered up by the 'Lewinsky scandal'.



See 27:20




posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 07:08 AM
link   

originally posted by: neutronflux
I am just as guilty. A demand for cheap Chinese goods, and no appreciation for labor across the board by the everyday consumer did not help.

Then you add in the not in may back yard mind set for new factories.



I'm kind sick of hearing this TBH, it's just a backhanded way of shifting blame from politicians and business leaders to US consumers, as if John and Jane Doe had a hand in capitulation of US industry and somehow signed off on mass execution and relocation of US manufacturing by "voting with their dollar".

It's just a convenient alibi; I guess the Millenials/Hipsters might label this as some form of victim shaming.

"You know, you could have at any time, boycotted buying your kids blue jeans, started producing your own semiconductors and integrated circuitry, carpentering up your own bookshelves and coffee tables, so, so SO, this is partly on you maaaan". Sounds like some hair-brained retort that might be uttered from the mouth of The Dude.

Let's come to the point, this decision of economic siphoning off of US prosperity wasn't voted on; it wasn't pitched to the American public; it wasn't reported on, advertised. Politicians didn't talk about it (with one exception). The MSM did their masters' bidding and kept their mouths shut. It was done surreptitiously, spread out over time as to not incite alarm. The business execs and Captains of Industry to oversaw this displacement of US mfg were likely bright enough to understand the implications of what they were doing, but didn't give a flying F' about workers at steel mills in the Midwest, or garment shops in the Eastern cities, or any other subset of mid/lower class Americans that stood to lose a great deal by this arrangement. The value proposition of what selling out all production of goods to China meant was made and understood in terms of profit for people sitting in board rooms in NYC, DC, LA and other corporate headquarters.

I mentioned above the one politician (and it feels odd to label him as such) that had the nutz to speak up was ol Ross Perot who warned the American public about that "giant sucking sound" would be the noise produced by vacuuming up your jobs and depositing them elsewhere. His dire predictions, while probably discarded at the time as the ramblings of an esoteric old coot, turned out to be prophetic.

So, did Americans have some hand in this whole deal? If you want to pitch me the idea they could've voted in Ross Perot as POTUS, and thus might've staved off the mortgaging of the US' industrial future, I will say hindsight is 20/20, but yeah, had the die been cast thusly, Americans could've indeed taken part in preserving their former way of life. However, dumping on the US public for not organizing some kind massive economic protest to squeeze out businesses from every sector that dared to move to China, no, I don't buy that. The possibility of that occurring was always nill, and frankly that's asking a lot of any citizenry, even from the most Utopian nation ever contemplated by the great thinkers of ancient Greece.

ETA: people should be very VERY wary of anybody insinuating that US citizens in any way instigated, promoted, authorized or aided & abetted the selling out of US industry abroad. This is TPTB cramming an excuse into your mind, programming you as it were, that all is moving according to plan, just a natural progression of the vision of the NWO. Don't let anybody attempt to placate your or U-Turn the blame onto American households, as if working class folk have the time to do a market research study on every single item in their shopping cart and understand the consequences of what buying that knicknack vs the other one are. In most cases this is a straw man argument anyhow, as for many goods, after certain time between 1980-2000, your choices of purchase were between a label that said "Made in China", "Made in Korea" or "Made in Mexico", ahhhh yes, the power of consumer choice.
edit on 21-4-2020 by SleeperHasAwakened because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 07:44 AM
link   

originally posted by: karl 12
a reply to: 727Sky

Hey don't forget Bill Clinton's (treasonous) 'ChinaGate' exploits - good job it was covered up by the 'Lewinsky scandal'.

Nothing like a stained dress that just screams



posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 08:58 AM
link   

originally posted by: SleeperHasAwakened

originally posted by: neutronflux
I am just as guilty. A demand for cheap Chinese goods, and no appreciation for labor across the board by the everyday consumer did not help.

Then you add in the not in may back yard mind set for new factories.



I'm kind sick of hearing this TBH, it's just a backhanded way of shifting blame from politicians and business leaders to US consumers, as if John and Jane Doe had a hand in capitulation of US industry and somehow signed off on mass execution and relocation of US manufacturing by "voting with their dollar".

It's just a convenient alibi; I guess the Millenials/Hipsters might label this as some form of victim shaming.

"You know, you could have at any time, boycotted buying your kids blue jeans, started producing your own semiconductors and integrated circuitry, carpentering up your own bookshelves and coffee tables, so, so SO, this is partly on you maaaan". Sounds like some hair-brained retort that might be uttered from the mouth of The Dude.

Let's come to the point, this decision of economic siphoning off of US prosperity wasn't voted on; it wasn't pitched to the American public; it wasn't reported on, advertised. Politicians didn't talk about it (with one exception). The MSM did their masters' bidding and kept their mouths shut. It was done surreptitiously, spread out over time as to not incite alarm. The business execs and Captains of Industry to oversaw this displacement of US mfg were likely bright enough to understand the implications of what they were doing, but didn't give a flying F' about workers at steel mills in the Midwest, or garment shops in the Eastern cities, or any other subset of mid/lower class Americans that stood to lose a great deal by this arrangement. The value proposition of what selling out all production of goods to China meant was made and understood in terms of profit for people sitting in board rooms in NYC, DC, LA and other corporate headquarters.

I mentioned above the one politician (and it feels odd to label him as such) that had the nutz to speak up was ol Ross Perot who warned the American public about that "giant sucking sound" would be the noise produced by vacuuming up your jobs and depositing them elsewhere. His dire predictions, while probably discarded at the time as the ramblings of an esoteric old coot, turned out to be prophetic.

So, did Americans have some hand in this whole deal? If you want to pitch me the idea they could've voted in Ross Perot as POTUS, and thus might've staved off the mortgaging of the US' industrial future, I will say hindsight is 20/20, but yeah, had the die been cast thusly, Americans could've indeed taken part in preserving their former way of life. However, dumping on the US public for not organizing some kind massive economic protest to squeeze out businesses from every sector that dared to move to China, no, I don't buy that. The possibility of that occurring was always nill, and frankly that's asking a lot of any citizenry, even from the most Utopian nation ever contemplated by the great thinkers of ancient Greece.

ETA: people should be very VERY wary of anybody insinuating that US citizens in any way instigated, promoted, authorized or aided & abetted the selling out of US industry abroad. This is TPTB cramming an excuse into your mind, programming you as it were, that all is moving according to plan, just a natural progression of the vision of the NWO. Don't let anybody attempt to placate your or U-Turn the blame onto American households, as if working class folk have the time to do a market research study on every single item in their shopping cart and understand the consequences of what buying that knicknack vs the other one are. In most cases this is a straw man argument anyhow, as for many goods, after certain time between 1980-2000, your choices of purchase were between a label that said "Made in China", "Made in Korea" or "Made in Mexico", ahhhh yes, the power of consumer choice.


It WAS and IS voted on,daily......with American dollars by American people. The fact is, MOST people's decision buying number one factor is price. Things from China are cheaper. Look at USA made products and tell me they are flying out the door, outselling identical cheaper products made in China or other countries. As US companies fold because they can't compete with China's prices, the industries have disappeared in the countries where they once thrived.



posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 09:16 AM
link   
a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

You cannot absolve consumers of their role in this fiasco. They most certainly vote with their wallets and business responds in kind in a competitive market.

If consumers are making their purchase decision on price 80 percent of the time, as a business you have to figure out ways to lower your cost basis in a competitive market. Business executives are constantly looking at ways to improve efficiency, raise productivity, and reduce labor costs so the product can be priced more competitively.

It is very difficult to sell a product that is largely viewed as a commodity at a premium. Most consumers simply DNGAF that your product is "made in America". All they see and care about is that your socks cost $2.50 a pair while the Chinese sh*t cost $1.25. They don't care enough about socks to justify the price premium.

The same people who complain about Wal-mart were the first to abandon their local main street retailer to save a few pennies.

So if you make socks, the only way you can compete is to move your operations overseas where a factory worker makes $3.00/day instead of a union $17.50/hr.

American's will NEVER be able to compete on labor costs as our standard of living is too high. However, we can compete by making our business environment more competitive with lower taxes, regulations, and tariffs. You have to narrow the gap between low labor costs and the business environment to where a corporation doesn't find the headache of moving overseas worth it. This is where the political class failed us.


edit on 21-4-2020 by Edumakated because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 10:18 AM
link   
L

originally posted by: 727Sky
The article is mostly about Laura Bush and Michelle Obama joining forces to raise money that President Trump is withholding from WHO while an investigation is going on into the WHO's ineptness and being the mouth piece for the Chinese Communist propaganda machine.

I would imagine those who have been around for awhile will remember how it was thought that helping China out of its' poverty China would see the light and become another capitalist country with a growing middle class income and happiness for all. What these great thinkers missed was the total control a totalitarian government can and will excerpt over its' unarmed population and then the world if given half a chance. Hind sight is always clearer if one cares to look, IMO.

Bush also allowed China into the World Trade Organization, like a good globalist.

Clinton sold American technology to the communists during his reign. He famously had Chinese lobbyists renting out the Lincoln bedroom in the White House. How deep his rabbit hole goes we will probably never know.

And then there’s Obama, who finished what those before him had started, and allowed the complete hollowing out of American manufacturing to the Chinese mainland. We are seeing the fruits of his work now as the stockpiles of medical equipment in the face of the pandemic were bare, and we can’t even make our own medicine.



Regarding Trump’s attempts during the campaign to talk about the return of American manufacturing, Obama declared,

“Well, how exactly are you going to do that? What exactly are you going to do? There’s no answer to it…He just says, ‘Well, I’m going to negotiate a better deal.’ Well, what, how exactly are you going to negotiate that? What magic wand do you have? And usually the answer is, he doesn’t have an answer.”

creativedestructionmedia.com... atfinger



Um-mm....Richard Nixon. Years ago...1972



posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 01:26 PM
link   
a reply to: Edumakated




American's will NEVER be able to compete on labor costs as our standard of living is too high. However, we can compete by making our business environment more competitive with lower taxes, regulations, and tariffs. You have to narrow the gap between low labor costs and the business environment to where a corporation doesn't find the headache of moving overseas worth it. This is where the political class failed us.


Part of that equation is also business owners/stockholders have to be OK with less.
Yes, they should still get reward for their risk, but it's getting a little crazy. Some of that "reward" has to be shared
with their own workers.



posted on Apr, 21 2020 @ 06:28 PM
link   

originally posted by: FlyingSquirrel
Sounds good but you included a Republican President with Clinton and Obama as someone who's bad and not in our best interests. I can't give you a star, I'm sorry.

Only exclusive Dem bashing is popular and I want to fit in. Bush was a great man, father and son. They did alot for the country and the American people. Had Jr. not beat Gore in 2000, Saddam Hussein would still be alive and ISIS would been given weapons of mass destruction. The Taliban would still be terrorizing Afghanistan.


HA!

I was a life-long republican, had voted straight ticket in every election up until I realized what W was doing to the country after 9/11. Well, actually what Dick Cheney was doing. I am of the opinion that W. was drugged or under come kind of mind-control during most of his administration.

I abandoned the Republican party about half-way through the first decade of the new millenia. I was disgusted to see how the Tea Party was hijacked by the right and made into a caricature of itself. I played around with libertarianism for awhile and even campaigned and voted for Ron Paul in 2008 (only presidential campaign I've ever been that deeply involved in). Ron Paul was bernied (or, more aptly, Bernie was ronpaulled).

I hold that we no longer have a two-party system in the US. It's a two headed snake. Sure the heads fight and bite one another, but it's the same body, the same forward movement, the same ultimate vision.

It's clear that Donald Trump is no Republican. The Republican establishment was against him until the retard Democrats attacked and galvanized the Republicans behind him.

So in short, hell with all of 'em!

:
edit on 2020 4 21 by incoserv because: I could.



posted on Apr, 22 2020 @ 03:06 AM
link   
I suppose that there would not be any point in pointing out that all governments ultimately MUST aspire to totalitarianism?

Totalitarian slavery is THE RULE of human existence and always has been. It is the only way we can organize ourselves into a functional society. We can start out with plenty of conditional freedom when we're all riding horses across the country and tilling the fields and growing our own food. When society gets to the point to where people are not willing to accept any danger whatsoever, you have no freedom left and government has reached it's goal. Complete control. At that point, society can't survive without it. The government can order your employer to shut down indefinitely. The government can order everything to shut down indefinitely. What kind of freedom do you have without a job? You see? You are a slave.

If this shutdown doesn't do anything else, it should make this very clear. We are property.
edit on 22-4-2020 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2020 @ 07:57 PM
link   
a reply to: StoutBroux

I think the point being is that China plays on an uneven playing field. US companies don't get to use slaves (in the US, at least), and aren't allowed tomix dangerous chemicals in to products they don't belog in. They don't get to dump toxic waste wherever they want and in whatever quantities they wish.

If a widget can be made in China quality in China for $0.02, or to 4x better quality in the US for $0.08, a LOT of people would choose the US item. But if it costs $0.75 to make good US quality, then people tend to buy the junk and deal with the failures.

I think if more was made here, economies of scale and automation would help to bring the costs within reason - and we wouldn't have "steel" screws breaking under the force of being screwed into sulfur-laden drywall.



posted on Apr, 22 2020 @ 09:07 PM
link   
a reply to: dogstar23
Remember the Harvard Scientist Dr. Charles Lieber (-1sp) that was busted for being a possible spy for China. He was part of the 1000 Talent program of China. The program consist of tracking and recruiting the best talents the world over to help and show the CCP how things can be done (steal propitiatory information) . Charles was paid $50 thousand a month with another 158 thousand for living expenses plus was given 1.47 million to set up a lab in Wuhan China; all that was on top of his Harvard salary. This one case is but one of many IMO which has been found out . People have no idea how insidious and just darn good at steering a populations thoughts and procuring a states secrets the CCP's programs are.

The CCP along with their sympathizers need to be done away with; although I must admit I do not know how as they are like a cancer upon earth. Their means of infecting the world body is through MONEY and the buying of politicians, news organizations, and anyone else they want to own.

I think the 1000 talent program is a play off of the old Chinese torture method of 1000 cuts where the very last cut was always fatal. Most did not make it to 1000 as the cuts were carried out over a prolonged period of time depending on what you were sentenced for and if they thought you had information they wanted...



posted on Apr, 23 2020 @ 07:31 AM
link   

originally posted by: Edumakated
a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

You cannot absolve consumers of their role in this fiasco. They most certainly vote with their wallets and business responds in kind in a competitive market.

If consumers are making their purchase decision on price 80 percent of the time, as a business you have to figure out ways to lower your cost basis in a competitive market. Business executives are constantly looking at ways to improve efficiency, raise productivity, and reduce labor costs so the product can be priced more competitively.

It is very difficult to sell a product that is largely viewed as a commodity at a premium. Most consumers simply DNGAF that your product is "made in America". All they see and care about is that your socks cost $2.50 a pair while the Chinese sh*t cost $1.25. They don't care enough about socks to justify the price premium.

The same people who complain about Wal-mart were the first to abandon their local main street retailer to save a few pennies.

So if you make socks, the only way you can compete is to move your operations overseas where a factory worker makes $3.00/day instead of a union $17.50/hr.

American's will NEVER be able to compete on labor costs as our standard of living is too high. However, we can compete by making our business environment more competitive with lower taxes, regulations, and tariffs. You have to narrow the gap between low labor costs and the business environment to where a corporation doesn't find the headache of moving overseas worth it. This is where the political class failed us.



You're right edumukated, consumers do have some culpability, but IMO certainly the lion's share goes to our politicians and business leaders.

Look, when you're buying say a "big ticket" item, for example an automobile, it *used* to be the case that "buying American" would factor into your decision (some may still even weigh this in their thinking). I still remember my late grandfather giving my parents grief when I was a boy for purchasing an old Toyota Corolla. This is certainly a point in your favor; we Americans did vote with our dollars as it pertains to buying a new car or truck. Yet this kind comparative thinking, at least in my experience, had always been reserved for occasions where one has the time and leisure to mull over not just price point, but reliability, ease of obtaining parts and getting maintenance, and of course does it benefit fellow American workers. Even so, in today's topsy turvy world, some American automobile manufacturers produce their products in Mexico, and a good many foreign manufacturers have plants here in the US, so the old "buy American" axiom has been rendered moot for cars.

So you and I both agree on that point: most consumers, outside of purchasing something truly large, for everyday shopping, simply can't be bothered to weigh purchases according to where the label says it was made. Even at the peak of the earlier iterations of trade wars, in the '80s, I don't recall hearing "buy American" being thrown around when my mother went to buy groceries or my dad went to pick up lumber fasteners at the hardware store. But then this raises another question: at what point did the question of *where* something was manufactured extend down from sedans and TVs to light bulbs, dish detergent and 12d nails?

Another anecdote from my past; I had never been in a Walmart until I was in my early 20's. I grew up in a tiny town in rural NY state. We had a locally owned hardware store, and a locally owned grocery shop. You'd have to drive 20-30 miles to find a franchise store, and even then, your choices were limited to maybe a single large grocery/pharmacy store. There were no massive super stores in that day, not for 60-70 miles in the region I lived. Something began to shift in the '90s. Gradually, more options for shopping began springing up, even in the somewhat larger villages 20-30 miles from my town. The first Super Walmart appeared within reasonable driving distance in the early 00's. Coinciding with that change, many of the smaller towns' hardware, corner pharmacy and family grocery stores started closing down. My dad only ever purchased lumber and hardware from locally owned business. That changed by the end of the 00's, as Home Depot and Lowes penetrated our county. Bit by bit, from the 90's through the 00's and beyond, our local economies transitioned from small, locally run, specialized shops dotting the countryside to consolidated, multi-faceted, massive chain stores.

I don't think we can attribute the retail takeover that I saw play out in my area to consumers though, not in my view. Characterizing the shift I described as price point driven is putting the cart before the horse. We managed to buy our milk, Tylenol, saw blades just fine before the arrival of Walmart and Lowes. I'll concede that as the big retail titans moved in, there was more choice, more options, but this was not a consumer-driven operation. You understand with your economic acumen, that the mandate for the larger retailers is expansion. As a large scale business, you are either growing or dying, and that metric for the big boys is store count. The small towns that were supported by locally run shops were seen as target areas for new locations. As the Walmarts and Lowes moved in, the locally owned shops packed up, and the rest is history.

I fully agree with your last point about unfair labor practices in developing countries eroding our ability to compete. I think where you and I might differ is that probably at the C level, there was some understanding of this, and it was considered an opportunity to win out over other American businesses on margins. To be fair, it's asking quite a bit for CEOs to simultaneously answer to shareholders and community labor groups, but there were varying degrees of introspection on this. Walmart was probably at the bottom of the pile when it came to balancing cost efficiency with keeping America's economy healthy.

So really, it comes down to the responsibility of the politicians to have had the awareness and circumspection to see what played out in my community, and understand that large corporations are going to keep growing at all costs, "buy American" be damned. But by entrusting our economic future in the hands of politicians, we had already lost the trade war with China just as it was starting; no need to delve into why that's the case. Plenty of other threads do that here.



new topics

top topics



 
27
<<   2 >>

log in

join