I Am An American

originally posted by: daskakik
"It very simply means that our Rights are not 'granted' to us by government, and not subject to be taken away. We are born with them."

But they can be taken away as long as due process is followed.

Yep - meaning, in effect, one does it to oneself by committing crimes that result in the due process hammer coming down.

But they cannot be taken away 'just because'.

Anyway, I don't have the time to properly respond, so, by all means, knock yourself out with the belief that the constitutions/Governments of Mexico, Venezuela and China are in any way, shape or form, similar to the USA. Thankfully, it doesn't affect the reality.

originally posted by: tanstaafl
Yep - meaning, in effect, one does it to oneself by committing crimes that result in the due process hammer coming down.

But they cannot be taken away 'just because'.

How is that different than what the Mexican constitution says?

You just shifted from "...and are not subject to alienation by said government" to "But they cannot be taken away 'just because'." which pretty much means the same as "Such human rights shall not be restricted or suspended, except for the cases and under the conditions established by this Constitution itself."

Anyway, I don't have the time to properly respond, so, by all means, knock yourself out with the belief that the constitutions/Governments of Mexico, Venezuela and China are in any way, shape or form, similar to the USA. Thankfully, it doesn't affect the reality.

You have agreed that "god given rights" can be taken away.

Also, I have shown two other constitutions that state "the Citizen is Sovereign, not the government". There are many more but all it takes is 1 to show the US is not "unique" in that regard.

Since that was the bulk of your claim, it would seem you have no way to refute the fact that the US is not the only country with constitutionally protected rights and sovereign citizens.

originally posted by: daskakik
it would seem you have no way to refute the fact that the US is not the only country with constitutionally protected rights and sovereign citizens.

That wasn't my claim. I said that this country is unique as to the "nature of the origins and meaning of founding of the USA".

Again, I don't have time (nor do I care enough to want to) to do an in-depth comparison of the Constitution of our great Constitutional Republic to the Constitutions of a bunch of other dumbocracies pretending to be like us.

I stand by my claim. Anyone with half a brain and an ounce of integrity knows it is true. If you don't like it, too bad. By all means, declare victory in your denigration of our great nation, you aren't the only one who is jealous of the real, actual freedom we enjoy here, in spite of the den of vipers currently inhabiting our government, known as the 'deep state'. Hopefully Trump will be able to make a huge dent in his 8 years, and even more hopefully his son Don Jr can make a much bigger dent in his 8 years...

originally posted by: tanstaafl
That wasn't my claim. I said that this country is unique as to the "nature of the origins and meaning of founding of the USA".

And I pointed out that the nature was the same as many other countries that rebelled against European monarchs and you said "I know" which is you accepting another fact you can't refute.

The meaning is also the same, freedom, justice, constitutionally protected rights and a government of the people and by the people. That is where comparing the founding constitutions and actual government actions come into play. If someone can do so without bias they will understand what I'm saying.

Also, the US governments of the late 18th and early 19th centuries were not like the one you have know and even the end of your post works to that point. So if you are not happy with what you have, what makes it so different?

Again, I don't have time (nor do I care enough to want to) to do an in-depth comparison of the Constitution of our great Constitutional Republic to the Constitutions of a bunch of other dumbocracies pretending to be like us.

This is what people were calling out. Why does it have to be "pretending to be like you" instead of "inspired and striving to be like you" and maybe, just maybe, doing a pretty good job in some cases?

I stand by my claim. Anyone with half a brain and an ounce of integrity knows it is true. If you don't like it, too bad. By all means, declare victory in your denigration of our great nation, you aren't the only one who is jealous of the real, actual freedom we enjoy here,

Where did I denigrate the US? All I said is that there are other places with real actual freedom as well. Why do you feel that would take anything away from the US?

...in spite of the den of vipers currently inhabiting our government, known as the 'deep state'. Hopefully Trump will be able to make a huge dent in his 8 years, and even more hopefully his son Don Jr can make a much bigger dent in his 8 years...

Really has nothing to do with the topic but, ok.

originally posted by: daskakik
"I stand by my claim. Anyone with half a brain and an ounce of integrity knows it is true. If you don't like it, too bad. By all means, declare victory in your denigration of our great nation, you aren't the only one who is jealous of the real, actual freedom we enjoy here,"

Where did I denigrate the US?

You said:

"Do Americans have some sort of insecurity issue?

They keep going on about their foundation."

Which can easily be taken as disparaging. Maybe I was wrong, if so, my bad.

Now, as I said, I'm done, if you want to go pretend that there is nothing special about the founding of the USA, have at it.

originally posted by: tanstaafl
You said:

"Do Americans have some sort of insecurity issue?

They keep going on about their foundation."

Which can easily be taken as disparaging. Maybe I was wrong, if so, my bad.

Now, as I said, I'm done, if you want to go pretend that there is nothing special about the founding of the USA, have at it.

I never said any of that, so yeah, that would be wrong.

While I did ask what made the foundation of the US "special", it was in the context of "unique", which was the word you used. So special or unique used that way means the only one and the US isn't the only country which fought for its freedom from an old empire and/or has a government by the people for the people.

In that sense it isn't unique and as a person who grew up in the US but chose to leave and now live in a country with a similar system, I can assure you that there is no jealousy involved when I say there are other countries with real freedom (or at least as real as the US).

The posters that did say what you quoted were calling out this need that some americans seem to have, which you demonstrated clearly, of having something nobody else has. It is rather petty and, honestly, comes "from a standpoint of pure ignorance".

originally posted by: daskakik
I never said any of that, so yeah, that would be wrong.

Aargh, you are correct, and have my apologies. You jumped in in the middle, and I mistook you for allday...

While I did ask what made the foundation of the US "special", it was in the context of "unique", which was the word you used. So special or unique used that way means the only one and the US isn't the only country which fought for its freedom from an old empire and/or has a government by the people for the people.

Our founding was and still is unique. I don't care what you think about it, nothing you say can change it.

That said, you also misunderstood the underlying claim - I was talking about our founding - not the nation as it stands today.

But one last time, I have no time nor desire to debate your mistaken notions that other 'Republics', just because they recently changed their Constitutions to resemble ours and call themselves that, are anything even remotely like our country is now, and obviously, simply changing a Constitution has nothing to do with a country winning a war for independence.

originally posted by: tanstaafl
Our founding was and still is unique. I don't care what you think about it, nothing you say can change it.

That is just your opinion and your inability to have an open mind about it was what was being called out. Your bias won't even let you entertain the possibility of being wrong.

ETA: Even when it doesn't add or take away from the history or greatness of the US.

That said, you also misunderstood the underlying claim - I was talking about our founding - not the nation as it stands today.

But one last time, I have no time nor desire to debate your mistaken notions that other 'Republics', just because they recently changed their Constitutions to resemble ours and call themselves that, are anything even remotely like our country is now, and obviously, simply changing a Constitution has nothing to do with a country winning a war for independence.

Do you even know what your point is because in one sentence you say " I was talking about our founding - not the nation as it stands today." and in the very next " just because they recently changed their Constitutions to resemble ours and call themselves that, are anything even remotely like our country is now".

Besides I never said any country was the same as the US is today. I said that they adopted the same type of government. So they did the same as the US did back in 1788. And the kicker is that the US wasn't even the first.

There is nothing to debate. I just pointed out why the US isn't the only country to have won a war of independence and/or have a Constitutional Republic form of government.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: tanstaafl
Our founding was and still is unique. I don't care what you think about it, nothing you say can change it.

That is just your opinion and your inability to have an open mind about it was what was being called out. Your bias won't even let you entertain the possibility of being wrong.

Because I'm not.

Do you even know what your point is because in one sentence you say " I was talking about our founding - not the nation as it stands today." and in the very next " just because they recently changed their Constitutions to resemble ours and call themselves that, are anything even remotely like our country is now".

Obviously (by the context) I meant "... like our country's founding."... but good for you, you caught me in a mis-speak. Feel better?

Besides I never said any country was the same as the US is today. I said that they adopted the same type of government. So they did the same as the US did back in 1788. And the kicker is that the US wasn't even the first.

That is simply your opinion, and it is wrong. Yes, ours was the first.

There is nothing to debate.

So already...

I just pointed out why the US isn't the only country to have won a war of independence and/or have a Constitutional Republic form of government.

And your point was wrong. None of these other countries you mention 'won a war of independence and following said war instituted our form of government'. They were all petty military dictatorships or some other petty tyrant wanna-be (yes, often installed and propped up by the traitorous rat bastards in our own US State Dept/Intel Community) who at some point decided it was a good idea to pretend to mimic our country in certain ways.

a reply to: tanstaafl

A few facts about the foundation of The U.S.

It was founded on treason against the British Crown.

It was founded on slavery.

It was founded by men who's main intention was greed.

Of the " Founding Fathers " only two of them had the courage to do any actual fighting. One of those , George Washington only turned traitor because he was denied a commission in The British Army, which he so desperately wanted.

Not great is it ?

originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: tanstaafl

A few facts about the foundation of The U.S.

It was founded on treason against the British Crown.

Rotflmao! No, it was founded on rejection of tyranny of the crown.

It was founded on slavery.

Rotflmao! No, slavery just happened to be the reality of the time, in pretty much all countries all over the world.

It was founded by men who's main intention was greed.

Rotflmao! Proof?

Of the " Founding Fathers " only two of them had the courage to do any actual fighting. One of those , George Washington only turned traitor because he was denied a commission in The British Army, which he so desperately wanted.

Rotflmao! Proof?

Not great is it ?

Seeing as your 'facts' are all fictional fantasy of USA haters, I'll just say...

KAG 2020!

a reply to: tanstaafl

Slavery.

Although many of the Founding Fathers acknowledged that slavery violated the core American Revolutionary ideal of liberty, their simultaneous commitment to private property rights, principles of limited government, and intersectional harmony prevented them from making a bold move against slavery. The considerable investment of Southern Founders in slave-based staple agriculture, combined with their deep-seated racial prejudice, posed additional obstacles to emancipation.

www.britannica.com...

Treason.

The Declaration of Independence was not only illegal, but actually treasonable. There is no legal principle then or now to allow a group of citizens to establish their own laws because they want to

www.bbc.co.uk...

Greed. Explained here.

Did the Founding Fathers Lead the American Revolution for the Pursuit of Liberty – Or Personal Greed?

www.alternet.org...

The only record of any Founders actually fighting are for Washington and Hamilton. Unless you can find anything to the contrary it is up to you to find that proof.

I can understand why you are laughing, That is an automatic defence against something that is both true and uncomfortable for you.

originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: tanstaafl
Slavery.

As I said - slavery was the reality of the time.

To put it bluntly, there would be no United States of America if the Founders had tried to prevent slavery from being a part of the new nation.

Treason.

"The Declaration of Independence was not only illegal, but actually treasonable. There is no legal principle then or now to allow a group of citizens to establish their own laws because they want to"

A BBC link? Really?

Try reading the The Declaration of Independence sometime, to learn how/why it was not treason under natural law, regardless of the fact that the crown did consider it treason.

Greed. Explained here.

"Did the Founding Fathers Lead the American Revolution for the Pursuit of Liberty – Or Personal Greed?"

Sorry, a link to an America hating site to an article loaded with a bunch of - gasp - anti-American opinion - is not proof of anything other than there are people out there who like to revile America.

I'm not saying our founding was perfect, but that article certainly is about as far from reality as you can get.

The only record of any Founders actually fighting are for Washington and Hamilton. Unless you can find anything to the contrary it is up to you to find that proof.

Yeah... no...

I can understand why you are laughing, That is an automatic defence against something that is both true and uncomfortable for you.

Not at all, I am laughing at the ignorance of people like you.

Luckily for you, I am willing to fight for your right to denigrate our country, whether you live here or not...

a reply to: tanstaafl

Seems like you are a denier of the real reasons for the foundation of The U.S. Well that is up to you. Sometimes the truth really does hurt.

Let me leave you with this quote from your the Declaration Of Independence,

" "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal "

Unless you where a slave of course. Can you not see the hypocrisy in that quotation ?

The U.S. foundation was nothing more than a con trick.

My turn to laugh now.

originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: tanstaafl
Sometimes the truth really does hurt.

Doesn't it though. Don't worry, you're not alone in your delusions of america-hate.

Enjoy all of the blessings the founding of America have bestowed on you (whether you live here or not), especially the fact that you are free to hate America and believe all of the lies spewed about her.

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: tanstaafl
Sometimes the truth really does hurt.

Doesn't it though. Don't worry, you're not alone in your delusions of america-hate.

Enjoy all of the blessings the founding of America have bestowed on you (whether you live here or not), especially the fact that you are free to hate America and believe all of the lies spewed about her.

Enjoy all of the blessings the founding of America have bestowed on you

Really? Let me just remind you that without Britain there would be no U.S. Reality check.

originally posted by: alldaylong
Let me just remind you that without Britain there would be no U.S. Reality check.

Reality check?

Sorry, you seem to be undr the mistaken assumption that I have ever said anything contrary. I haven't.

Yolu could also say that without the Holy Roman Empire there would be no Britain.

Now, just , you're wasting my time.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Yolu could also say that without the Holy Roman Empire there would be no Britain.

Britain was around for thousands of years before The HRE. Who do you think built Stonehenge ? The Romans ?

PMSL.

originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: tanstaafl
Britain was around for thousands of years before The HRE.

Really? I'll admit I'm not a historian... but googling says that the Roman Emire was founded in 753BC, while the first king of England/Britain (Æthelstan) was in 927AD

Who do you think built Stonehenge ? The Romans ?

Apparently not the Brits...

Now I would be the one PMSL if I didn't have control of my bladder.

Best get that looked at.

a reply to: tanstaafl


You said this.

Yolu could also say that without the Holy Roman Empire there would be no Britain

Britain was around for thousands of years before The Romans. Just read up on Prehistoric Britain, Ancient Britain, Celtic Britain and Iron Age Britain.

During those periods Britain was divided into tribal regions.

www.englishmonarchs.co.uk...

first king of England/Britain (Æthelstan) was in 927AD

England is not Britain. It is only part of it. Before Ethelstan England was ruled by tribal Kingdoms such as Mercia, Wessex, Kent, Northumbria etc. Each tribe had it's own King or Queen,until they where united into one country that became England.