Romans;- Wrath of God is revealed

In the opening lines of this epistle, Paul told the Roman church that he was eager to visit them and preach the gospel in that city.
Since the conditions are not yet ripe, he turns this letter into a way of presenting the gospel at a distance.

The first requirement is to explain the need for a gospel.
This gospel is the revelation of the righteousness of God, which is his power to vindicate and save his people.
And his people need to be saved because of the wrath of God, which has been revealed “against all ungodliness and wickedness of men”(ch1 vv17-18).

We must understand that this “wrath” is not an emotion. It is the action of God in rejecting whatever is incompatible with his nature.
Jealousy and wrath are not emotions

In their wickedness, men have suppressed the truth. That is, they chose not to know the truth about God in order to avoid living in accordance with his will.
This echoes what we are told in Genesis, that humanity detached themselves from God by claiming “the knowledge of good and evil”, the right to define the difference between good and evil according to their own tastes.
It was always possible for them to know that God was there; his invisible nature could have been guessed from the visible things of the world. That was how he revealed himself to them.
So they don’t have any excuse for ignoring him (vv19-20).

Nevertheless, they suppressed this knowledge and darkened their own minds, because they did not want to honour him and live in obedience.
They allowed images of other living things to divert their attention away from his immortal glory.
They thought of themselves as “wise”, but they were turning themselves into fools (vv21-23).
Now the Greeks and those who shared their culture, including the Romans, regarded themselves as “wise” over against the foolish barbarians.
And yet in Athens, the spiritual home of their wisdom, Paul had been astonished and appalled by the physical signs of their intricate system of idolatry.
So this comment is a deadly thrust against the self-esteem of the Greek-speaking world.

Since men became “futile” in their thinking, God “gave them up to” the state of darkness in their hearts and in their minds (v24, v28)
Here is another example of one Biblical teaching which we always find puzzling.
The pattern is that a man or a people are departing from God’s will, and he allows them to do it, or can even be said to make them do it. At the very least, he must share in what they do to the extent that he continues to sustain their existence instead of terminating them on the spot. The best-known case is the “hardening of Pharaoh’s heart”.
It seems that he wants to “give them enough rope”, as it were, to demonstrate the state of their characters beyond all dispute before he brings them to judgement.

We were told that the wrath of God was revealed against “the ungodliness and wickedness of men”. That is, against their alienation from God and against their injustice towards each other.
When God “gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity”, he was allowing them scope for their ungodliness (vv24-27).
Now the “heart” is the place where men make choices and commit themselves. It relates to the will, just as much as it relates to the emotions
In the human conduct described in these verses, man have chosen to exercise their wills in opposition to the will of God in this area.
We know from the Old Testament that the Creator God takes marriage and everything that affects marriage very personally- Marriage and the God of Life
That is why Paul treats their conduct as the effect and symptom of not knowing God and worshipping other things instead.

When God gave them up to “a base mind”, he was allowing them scope for their wickedness; that is, their injustice towards one another (vv28-32).
They became full of covetousness, malice, envy, murder, strife, deceit and malignity, and they became gossips and slanderers.
The common factor is that all these traits of character cause other people to be treated badly.
That includes the trait “haters of God”, which is one of the branches of “gossip and slander”; the effect on other people is to undermine any surviving inclination to respect the will of God. The disappearance of that restraint, in turn, promotes further unjust conduct.
The same can be said about “inventors of evil” and “approving those who practise these things”.
They are all aspects of a general social demoralisation which creates a world of injustice.

Those who do these things “deserve to die”, in the modern Bibles, but the more literal translation of the AV gives “are worthy of death”, which may be more accurate.

The point is that death is the natural consequence of their conduct, when the judgement of God is applied.
This is another way of expressing the conclusion of the Eden story in Genesis, where vulnerability to death follows on from the separation from God’s will.

So that is how the human race lies under the wrath of God, and that is the condition which makes the gospel necessary.

One way of understanding the objection to idolatry is through the analogy of God as the teacher of his people. Then other entities claiming to be gods can be seen as the distractions from his teaching.
Any teacher will want his pupils to ignore such distractions and focus their attention upon the lessons they should be learning.
That’s why loyalty to God and rejection of idols are tied in so closely together in the two most fundamental commandments of Exodus.
Idolatry is a side-effect of not knowing the Creator God and helps to reinforce the detachment from him.

Then, we have this, Romans 11:32

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. -KJV

a reply to: Lazarus Short
Yes, indeed. That is the next logical step in his argument.

If I went out of turn, carry on - I will step back.

a reply to: Lazarus Short
I wasn't complaining- just acknowledging your contribution and agreeing with you.

a reply to: DISRAELI

How do you ever really know it is the wrath of God and not some superstitious pareidolia??????????

It seems to me God is indifferent. And the source of all our evil comes from our own imperfections in our characters. Nature is surely indifferent. Tornadoes and hurricanes do not have minds. As I said, it seems God is mostly indifferent to the affairs of man. There is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our illusion of having free-will.

I've decided at this point in my life I am no longer going to be afraid of God. I'm just going to take care of my own business.

Well said... If you pay attention to the control grid...AKA religion wins.a reply to: dfnj2015

a reply to: dfnj2015
All I'm doing is describing what the New Testament says. Within the terms of theological discussion, I'm entitled to "know" on that basis. The New Testament says that God is not indifferent to the way we conduct ourselves.

I laugh at this God who preys on mortals because of some God -complex

a reply to: DISRAELI

It is interesting to watch some commenters illustrate the point of your post so very well though.

In their wickedness, men have suppressed the truth. That is, they chose not to know the truth about God in order to avoid living in accordance with his will.
This echoes what we are told in Genesis, that humanity detached themselves from God by claiming “the knowledge of good and evil”, the right to define the difference between good and evil according to their own tastes.

so, under the old gods, the roman empire lasted for a thousand years and pushed science to the edge.

then they converted to the new god and fell.

the new god ruled for a thousand years and it was called the dark ages. science and culture devolved. they forgot how to make concrete, for example.

ill take the old gods over the new any day. glad they are making a come back.

a reply to: DISRAELI
Gods will is what IS happening.....this actually is. But what is happening is missed and denied because of the belief in time and you fear what will happen to you in time...... for you shall surely die.

Thought (the whispering serpent) makes believe that there is a person traveling through time.... that person is the idol and any thought about you is seeking something more and better.....the belief that there is something good to be found in time.

But wholeness/God is what IS happening.

Who sees and hears what actually is when the past and future (imaginings) collide?

a reply to: DISRAELI

A need for "A" Gospel, Which Gospel? The revelation of the righteousness of God. Man has known about the righteousness of God for Millennia. And never once is that called a Gospel. there are three gospels found in the NT, they are 1) a gospel called the Gospel of the Kingdom taught by Jesus and the disciples up unto Acts 8 to which Israel had to believe and do the commandments, repent and be baptized so they could enter the Physical Kingdom of heaven. 2) A gospel called by Paul The Gospel of the grace of God which is salvation by Grace alone through faith, where one is placed in Christ called the baptized of the Holy Ghost, he is part of the Kingdom of God a spiritual Kingdom. And finally 3) A Gospel heralded by an Angel to all men to Give god honor for his wrath is at hand, if they did such he would allow Gentile nations to stay on the earth and be ruled by Jews and not face judgement for 1,000 years.

To save his people? touches a little Calvinism in that statement, for no Gentile is ever called his people or his children until after Salvation.

No one gets saved to escape the wrath of God. When one gets saved he is no longer rejected of God and he is adopted, he is given a new life in Christ (according to Paul there is no difference between gender, race and position of prominence over another (for God is not a respecter of men and neither should we be). His escape was not really an escape because Jesus Bore the wrath of all sin upon the cross 1 Perter 2:24. We are eternally saved by the power of God because we could not save ourselves, hence why we need salvation. not to escape wrath but to live in peace with God forever.

I could go on and on to reveal the errors caused by scholarship only doctrines. but what is the point right Disraeli, we are both stuck in our ways. But we can't both be right. One is in error and one is not. All I can say is Let God be true and every man a liar.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
we need salvation. not to escape wrath but to live in peace with God forever.

They are the same thing, seen from different angles. Just as, when a man is swimming in the middle of an ocean, "being brought safe to land" and "being rescued from drowning" are two different ways of saying the same thing.

For heavan's sake, you are criticising Paul here. Paul is the one who brings in the wrath of God as part of his explanation of the gospel. All I'm doing is trying to explain why, showing what the connection is.

On the subject of multiple gospels, I'll only repeat what I've already said to you; that it's a mistake to make the message of God more complicated than it really is. When you make these distinctions, that is your streak of legalism showing through again. What matters is that our access to God is by faith.

Let me remind you that your credibility as a Bible commentator has been compromised- you are someone who thinks that a man finds a treasure in a field and goes and hides himself.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
but what is the point right Disraeli, we are both stuck in our ways. But we can't both be right. One is in error and one is not. All I can say is Let God be true and every man a liar.

Does this mean that you are going to give up judging another man's servant? Beacuse that is what provokes me into taking off the gloves and exposing your own shortcomings.

They are the same thing, seen from different angles. Just as, when a man is swimming in the middle of an ocean, "being brought safe to land" and "being rescued from drowning" are two different ways of saying the same thing.

I should have cited Romans ch5 vv9-10 as scriptural evidence of that statement. We come to it in a couple of weeks.

a reply to: DISRAELI

In this case I am not judging your practice as a Christian. You see you misunderstand and think that teaching is the same as a man's practice. If I did that, I would be judging your practice e.g. eat, drink, anything that is a practice. I cannot that is a local church issue I am not a member of your local church.

When it comes to teaching if one teaches incorrectly i.e. the 144 is spiritual and not literal Male Virgin Jews in the Great Tribulation. That is where I will draw lines and make judgements. We are encouraged too. You have done it to me, even though you were in error.

This we will say. If there is no preserved words of God today, then we change (a violation of God's words in Duet, Prov and Revelation) Ps12:6-7 to be people and not God's Words. Then we now we have many interpretations violating God's word that his word's are of no private interpretation as found in 2 Peter 1:20, and we would have to get rid of that verse and or change it.

So now we have 350 English versions floating around out there all of them differ in size of text, meaning of text and in interpretation of the text.

Which word is right?

We we say we need scholars to teach us, then we must change or get rid of the verse that says STUDY in 2Tim 2:15. Then we have men not God via the Holy Ghost who lives in us teaching us comparing spiritual to spiritual. So we again would have to change or remove 1 Cor 2:13.

And this is what we end up with. A bible that supports JW' teachings, a different Bible that supports Calvinism, Another version to support Southern Baptist, another for Landmark Baptist, Another for Charismatics, another one for Messianic Jewish believers, and another for Holiness, Another for Roman Catholics (which aren't really Christians in my book99Ican make that judgement seeing I grew up as one)). Another versions for the LGBTQ's, another for Blacks, Etc Etc Etc and so on.

Now all I just said is true and is already happened. It is called division and a body divided does not stand. We are to be in unity and of one mind. If we were of one mind we would truly exercise the mind of Christ and search for God's preserved word. For without the preserved word we have divisions.

the Authorized Version, though an older English stock, is perfectly understandable to all who speak and understand English if they just apply themselves. The AV has all the words in it that the other 349 versions have removed, altered, changed or as you believe improved. Not only are all the words there but so are all the phrases, the sections, and all the chapters in it.

Now if I were to want to Study any Bible I would want the one that has everything in it. No matter if others said those were errors it would not matter at least I have one book (66 really) I can hold in my hand and study from. Starting from that point I will exercise my faith in God that he has given me his words for godliness, rule and authority for my life. From there I would read that Bible everyday and become so familiar with it I would know it back and forth. And during that time I would begin to diagram the sentences to find and Identify those words as Nouns, Verbs, Adjective, Adverbs, so on and so forth. From that I would learn the English words employed in it, to know the different meanings of those words (Nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs and so on) as Noun, Verbs, Adjectives, Adverbs and so forth. I would Identify the figures of Speech, the allegories, the metaphors, the hyperbole, the poetry, the Narratives, Etcetera and so forth.

But one thing through this all, I would take the utmost care not to distrust God's words, Question God's words, Remove God's words, Add to God's words or Diminish God's words. so as I learned I would have trust in God's words for life. Not just my Trust in the Living word Jesus Christ but his PRESERVED words but my trust that He gave me his words.

If we don't follow the rules I have laid out then we set ourselves up as smarter than God and more powerful than God. I mean after all, if God can't preserve his own words as promised, then He is not a God I would encourage anyone to follow.

In the design of the many Bible versions there are a few striking problems 1) they diminish the Deity of Jesus Christ, the importance of the role of the Holy Ghost, they whole power of God himself. 2) they weaken them that read those diminished words, they weaken people in their walk their faith and their assurance of their salvation.

I hope you understand that without the preserved purified words of God as stated kept by God we have Anarchy. Now you know why in the Laodecean(SP?) Age we are in there is so much division, weakness and sinful practice and teachings in the Body of Christ.

I take my Side with God, You take your side with Man. Who is stronger Man or God?

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: DISRAELI

In this case I am not judging your practice as a Christian. You see you misunderstand and think that teaching is the same as a man's practice. If I did that, I would be judging your practice e.g. eat, drink, anything that is a practice. I cannot that is a local church issue I am not a member of your local church.

When it comes to teaching if one teaches incorrectly i.e. the 144 is spiritual and not literal Male Virgin Jews in the Great Tribulation. That is where I will draw lines and make judgements. We are encouraged too. You have done it to me, even though you were in error.

This we will say. If there is no preserved words of God today, then we change (a violation of God's words in Duet, Prov and Revelation) Ps12:6-7 to be people and not God's Words. Then we now we have many interpretations violating God's word that his word's are of no private interpretation as found in 2 Peter 1:20, and we would have to get rid of that verse and or change it.

So now we have 350 English versions floating around out there all of them differ in size of text, meaning of text and in interpretation of the text.

Which word is right?

We we say we need scholars to teach us, then we must change or get rid of the verse that says STUDY in 2Tim 2:15. Then we have men not God via the Holy Ghost who lives in us teaching us comparing spiritual to spiritual. So we again would have to change or remove 1 Cor 2:13.

And this is what we end up with. A bible that supports JW' teachings, a different Bible that supports Calvinism, Another version to support Southern Baptist, another for Landmark Baptist, Another for Charismatics, another one for Messianic Jewish believers, and another for Holiness, Another for Roman Catholics (which aren't really Christians in my book99Ican make that judgement seeing I grew up as one)). Another versions for the LGBTQ's, another for Blacks, Etc Etc Etc and so on.

Now all I just said is true and is already happened. It is called division and a body divided does not stand. We are to be in unity and of one mind. If we were of one mind we would truly exercise the mind of Christ and search for God's preserved word. For without the preserved word we have divisions.

the Authorized Version, though an older English stock, is perfectly understandable to all who speak and understand English if they just apply themselves. The AV has all the words in it that the other 349 versions have removed, altered, changed or as you believe improved. Not only are all the words there but so are all the phrases, the sections, and all the chapters in it.

Now if I were to want to Study any Bible I would want the one that has everything in it. No matter if others said those were errors it would not matter at least I have one book (66 really) I can hold in my hand and study from. Starting from that point I will exercise my faith in God that he has given me his words for godliness, rule and authority for my life. From there I would read that Bible everyday and become so familiar with it I would know it back and forth. And during that time I would begin to diagram the sentences to find and Identify those words as Nouns, Verbs, Adjective, Adverbs, so on and so forth. From that I would learn the English words employed in it, to know the different meanings of those words (Nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs and so on) as Noun, Verbs, Adjectives, Adverbs and so forth. I would Identify the figures of Speech, the allegories, the metaphors, the hyperbole, the poetry, the Narratives, Etcetera and so forth.

But one thing through this all, I would take the utmost care not to distrust God's words, Question God's words, Remove God's words, Add to God's words or Diminish God's words. so as I learned I would have trust in God's words for life. Not just my Trust in the Living word Jesus Christ but his PRESERVED words but my trust that He gave me his words.

If we don't follow the rules I have laid out then we set ourselves up as smarter than God and more powerful than God. I mean after all, if God can't preserve his own words as promised, then He is not a God I would encourage anyone to follow.

In the design of the many Bible versions there are a few striking problems 1) they diminish the Deity of Jesus Christ, the importance of the role of the Holy Ghost, they whole power of God himself. 2) they weaken them that read those diminished words, they weaken people in their walk their faith and their assurance of their salvation.

I hope you understand that without the preserved purified words of God as stated kept by God we have Anarchy. Now you know why in the Laodecean(SP?) Age we are in there is so much division, weakness and sinful practice and teachings in the Body of Christ.

I take my Side with God, You take your side with Man. Who is stronger Man or God?

I used my KJV today. Do you know how? I am studying two things about God:

1. His nature, as evidenced by fire, flame, burning, lightning and brightness.

2. His way of saving all of humanity, which He depicts as base metals, lead, tin, brass, iron. He depicts Himself as a Refiner, and sometimes as soap. He blows the fire with His fury and wrath, melting the dross out of us, and pouring off the pure silver.

This process has been pulled into other Biblical terminology to support the doctrine of Hell, producing a fear-based religion and the depiction of God as a hateful Judge rather than a loving Father. Even using the KJV, using a few tools and common sense, a layman can see through this pagan doctrine. Do you really want to strain out a gnat and swallow a camel?