U.S. Fighting Back Against China is Having a Profound Global Ripple Effect.

China buys a whopping 5 percent of America’s exports, while we buy 19 percent of theirs. We hold the cards.

U.S. consumers are either the best or worst on the planet, depending on how you look at it. We buy 30 percent of everything on the world consumer market; China buys 11 percent. The EU’s share is 22 percent, even though it has 57 percent more people than the USA. No. 4 Japan consumes 6.3 percent. If the USA, EU and Japan would stand firmly together against China, it would have to stop its predatory trade practices and theft of intellectual property. Together, we could compel them to stop a lot of their arrogant behavior, such as claiming the South China Sea as its own. China is a paper tiger. It needs the First-World far more than we need it.

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: rickymouse

You can't blame Europe for taking advantage. After ww2 the US propped itself up as the economic industrial powerhouse help rebuild the European economy. All of a sudden it's an issue because they're economies are back on their feet?
The US had plenty of opportunity to figure out their system of capitalism wasnt sustainable. And it's all coming crashing down now, and they want to drag everyone down with them until its back to what they want. Does that sound fair to you? Because Germany, and China have been on a steady rise while the US struggles? If you want jobs and industry to return, put more power into the workers hands, and voices and stop letting the overly greedy CEOs and board members dictate the decisions for their interests only.

I posted this on another thread. It seems to contradict what you say about the USA struggling while China and Germany are rising:

If the three states with the largest GDPs were independent nations, the remaining United States would still have the largest GDP in the world. California would have the fifth largest, ranked below Germany and just above India. Texas would have the 11th largest GDP, ranked below Brazil and just above Canada. New York would be 13th, below Canada and above South Korea.

a reply to: Scapegrace

When I say struggling. I mean within their own performance. The US is by far the biggest economic powerhouse, no doubt. Which still proves a point, why are they picking on smaller economies and putting the blame on them?

So funny to me. Americans are like political fanboys. Their choice politician makes garbage up in a narrative and they all just buy into it whole heartedly, and create these fabricated narratives of history to go with it.

China has been doing what? What technology did they steal exactly? What did they get that was not freely offered? China had something us businesses wanted. Us businesses had something China wanted. They exchanged it.

It has nothing to do with the American public, it’s two parties, the us public not among them, that made a deal amongst themselves.

It’s no different than how Japan, Taiwan, and other places developed, or dealt with us corporations.

The people who screwed the us are the corporations, they’re the ones who left to save money, who exchanged advanced tech for cheap labor and markets. Who took their jobs and taxes with them. Strangely they’re the very same ones who always screw the us public, and also strangely they’re the ones the us public never goes after.

The American public cannot tell the difference between charisma and integrity, between narcissism and genius, between dementia and strength, between history and fantasy, between news and intertainment, generosity and greed, vice and virtue. Hopefully our kids will do better.

In fact, I just thought of something funny. Many of the people on here, specifically, ridicule the gun discussions claiming “guns don’t kill people. It’s the people doing it! Why blame the tool?”. Which is fine. I’m pro guns, the right to bear arms, etc. But that same argument applies to China, outsourcing, immigrants, trade deals, etc. Y’all blame these things, when they are the but the tools. The tools of the people who lie to you, who force your wages down, who promise cheaper goods if you give up your middle class jobs, who promise higher pay and more jobs if you cut their taxes, and then don’t deliver. And yet we give them a free pass, while focusing on their tools. Hm.

originally posted by: carewemust

But it's perplexing why every President since, has allowed the United States to continue being taken advantage of by China. After all, they took an oath to protect and defend the United States of America and its citizens, to the best of their ability.

-CareWeMust

It is because we are a consumer society. As long as we get things cheaper than made here at home the masses are happy and politicians get reelected. What we don't know is how cheaper is it, is it 20% 10% 5% 1%...we don't really know, but it is cheaper dammit!

We see this with illegal aliens too, no politician in the past would touch this with a ten foot pole until Trump came along. The argument is the same...get our crops etc cheaper. Saving 10c on my veggies per pound is well worth the human trafficking and taking huge advantage of a very vulnerable class of people.

originally posted by: Scapegrace
China buys a whopping 5 percent of America’s exports, while we buy 19 percent of theirs. We hold the cards.

Buying more expensive goods from elsewhere knocks the price on to the customer, the company bosses have to recoup somewhere.
Hurt the general public in the pocket, winning!?!

originally posted by: pexx421

China has been doing what? What technology did they steal exactly? What did they get that was not freely offered? China had something us businesses wanted. Us businesses had something China wanted. They exchanged it.

I think you need to read up on just what China has been doing around the world and how they want global dominance in 50 years. As to the technology, they steal it many ways, as example we can not use flash drives at my work due to what the Chinese do with them as being a huge global hacker. They also force companies to give up intellectual property by saying they can not do business there, or allow them in and once the company is firmly in place tell the to give up their intellectual property or leave, so basically hold companies for ransom.

originally posted by: contextual

Buying more expensive goods from elsewhere knocks the price on to the customer, the company bosses have to recoup somewhere.
Hurt the general public in the pocket, winning!?!

Bless your little consumer heart. Its like a druggie gets pissed at the police because his cheapest drug dealer gets arrested.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: pexx421

China has been doing what? What technology did they steal exactly? What did they get that was not freely offered? China had something us businesses wanted. Us businesses had something China wanted. They exchanged it.

I think you need to read up on just what China has been doing around the world and how they want global dominance in 50 years. As to the technology, they steal it many ways, as example we can not use flash drives at my work due to what the Chinese do with them as being a huge global hacker. They also force companies to give up intellectual property by saying they can not do business there, or allow them in and once the company is firmly in place tell the to give up their intellectual property or leave, so basically hold companies for ransom.

Hahaha. I’ve read. And I’ve listened. I’ve listened to officials from other countries like varoufakis of Greece, describe how China treated Greece when buying the ports there, and how they bent over backwards to give concessions to the Greek when varoufakis said the trade agreement wasn’t good enough. They made no arguments, but offered Greece everything it asked for in exchange for the port, which he said would never have been done by western banks or investors. The same in Africa, where in some nations China offered to build massive infrastructure projects, schools, hospitals, for free with no obligation, in the hopes they would be open to Chinese investment in the future.

So you really want to compare China’s far fairer and mutually beneficial treatment of African and South American nations with the us practice of predatory capitalism, wars and coups? The Chinese version of trade and foreign policy look like angels compared to the us neoliberal model.

You live in a nation that records almost everything we say and do, who has been caught tapping phones of our allies heads of state, that has the largest surveillance system in the world. This has nothing to do with China misbehaving and everything to do with us need to maintain global hegemony. You don’t know your own country, or are in denial.

And you guys are in a fairy land; living a fantasy, if you think the belt road initiative is slowing or losing international support. It’s support from Africa, South America, the Middle East, and even Europe and our erstwhile allies is continuing to grow about as fast as support for American trade and treaties is collapsing. The US dollar is rapidly collapsing, not in value yet but it’s foundation of reserve currency, reputation, legitimacy, and backing are collapsing from the inside. Once that’s done it will tank, and guess who is already there to take up the slack?

Lastly, how do you think tanking trade with China will help the us economy?? Think those jobs moving from China to India or Vietnam are going to help bring back our middle class, freedom, or standing? We need to reindustrialize and I see nothing trump is doing to remedy that. But dream on. Refusal in the face of reality does help make life bearable.

originally posted by: pexx421
The same in Africa, where in some nations China offered to build massive infrastructure projects, schools, hospitals, for free with no obligation, in the hopes they would be open to Chinese investment in the future.

So they go in a bribe a few leaders in an African country to control it all....no obligations ...OK.. They are not doing any of that out of the goodness of their heart...remember global dominance in 50 years and owning Africa is all part of the plan.

Lastly, how do you think tanking trade with China will help the us economy?? Think those jobs moving from China to India or Vietnam are going to help bring back our middle class, freedom, or standing? We need to reindustrialize and I see nothing trump is doing to remedy that. But dream on. Refusal in the face of reality does help make life bearable.

Actually we need to move them out of China period. Move them to South America... The bottom line is companies follow the rive of least cost and if doing all that on the other side of the planet is the least cost then that is where they will go. Have move incentive here at home and they come home. Make South America the cheapest place and they go there.

China is no longer the cheapest. Their 800 million that were poor are now middle class by world standards, so cheap labor is done there as it was in the past ended in Korea and Japan when they were our cheap labor. Time to move on...

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: pexx421
The same in Africa, where in some nations China offered to build massive infrastructure projects, schools, hospitals, for free with no obligation, in the hopes they would be open to Chinese investment in the future.

So they go in a bribe a few leaders in an African country to control it all....no obligations ...OK.. They are not doing any of that out of the goodness of their heart...remember global dominance in 50 years and owning Africa is all part of the plan.

Lastly, how do you think tanking trade with China will help the us economy?? Think those jobs moving from China to India or Vietnam are going to help bring back our middle class, freedom, or standing? We need to reindustrialize and I see nothing trump is doing to remedy that. But dream on. Refusal in the face of reality does help make life bearable.

Actually we need to move them out of China period. Move them to South America... The bottom line is companies follow the rive of least cost and if doing all that on the other side of the planet is the least cost then that is where they will go. Have move incentive here at home and they come home. Make South America the cheapest place and they go there.

China is no longer the cheapest. Their 800 million that were poor are now middle class by world standards, so cheap labor is done there as it was in the past ended in Korea and Japan when they were our cheap labor. Time to move on...

Your imaginary scenarios concerning China’s future behaviors is not equal to our historical record of America’s behaviors ala Iraq, Syria, all the Mideast really, and South America, indochina etc.

Lastly, our businesses moving to other nations as you accurately describe, do the same thing as our past relations with China. Erode the middle class, industrialize other nations, and make more profit for corporations that are not passed on to customers. The original deal that allowed us to outsource and relocate business to other nations was promised to provide better products to us consumers at lower prices. Instead it destroyed our middle class, and made us pay slightly cheaper prices for mass disposable junk. This only solves a problem for the corporations for those who actually are screwing us, and solves no problems for the American people.

a reply to: pexx421

Lastly, our businesses moving to other nations as you accurately describe, do the same thing as our past relations with China. Erode the middle class, industrialize other nations, and make more profit for corporations that are not passed on to customers

My opinion, you've made case for bringing back well paying jobs to the U.S. with the above statement.

Congress could easily go long way to fixing the problem with tax legislation and other measures that punishes off-shoring by companies doing business here in the U.S.

Also along with that makes case to outlaw corporate political donation, lobbying and person-hood which has usurped the voters wishes.

Tariffs are what power a President has to use and thanks to one who is using them quite effectively unlike hot air expelled by many previous office holders.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: carewemust

But it's perplexing why every President since, has allowed the United States to continue being taken advantage of by China. After all, they took an oath to protect and defend the United States of America and its citizens, to the best of their ability.

-CareWeMust

It is because we are a consumer society. As long as we get things cheaper than made here at home the masses are happy and politicians get reelected. What we don't know is how cheaper is it, is it 20% 10% 5% 1%...we don't really know, but it is cheaper dammit!

We see this with illegal aliens too, no politician in the past would touch this with a ten foot pole until Trump came along. The argument is the same...get our crops etc cheaper. Saving 10c on my veggies per pound is well worth the human trafficking and taking huge advantage of a very vulnerable class of people.

Many of those cheap imports come at the cost of American jobs, outsourced by the millions. If you’ve lost a good-paying job because your employer moved his factory overseas, those cheap imports may not seem like such a great bargain on your reduced income. All too often, laid-off Americans can’t find anything that pays nearly as well as their old jobs and become drug addicts. I’m not saying cheap imports are entirely or even mostly responsible for layoffs and drug addiction, but they’re a significant factor.

originally posted by: pexx421

Your imaginary scenarios concerning China’s future behaviors is not equal to our historical record of America’s behaviors ala Iraq, Syria, all the Mideast really, and South America, indochina etc.

Lastly, our businesses moving to other nations as you accurately describe, do the same thing as our past relations with China. Erode the middle class, industrialize other nations, and make more profit for corporations that are not passed on to customers. The original deal that allowed us to outsource and relocate business to other nations was promised to provide better products to us consumers at lower prices. Instead it destroyed our middle class, and made us pay slightly cheaper prices for mass disposable junk. This only solves a problem for the corporations for those who actually are screwing us, and solves no problems for the American people.

One last thing you need to understand though I don't think you will ever agree with me is that China is doing what we did in the 1950s by using economic hit men tactics. What Corps did back then was not good in any sense of the word. They bought up governments by making a few in power rich and then they built dams, infrastructures, provided electricity etc and then they CHARGED 10 millions of people fees for all the God's work they did by enslaving the population to their self appointed debts. They also raped and pillaged the natural resources with no repercussions and no thought on destroying the local environment.

This is China today but on a grand worldwide scale that dwarfs what we did in the 50s. We did it and we learned, and other countries have paid a mean price for our failures, but this comes down to US or THEM. You can get on one side or the other and what China is working on is 10 times worst as the crap we pulled in the 50s. You can hate your own country (if you are an American), BUT China is not someone you should try to defend as the good guys. There is no goods guys in any of this, so you either accept America's rule or you accept Chin's rule...that is what it will come down to in the end.

Your choice bucko. For me, the Communist ruling we see in China is not what I want, nor do I want to see another round of economic hit men.

originally posted by: Scapegrace
Many of those cheap imports come at the cost of American jobs, outsourced by the millions. If you’ve lost a good-paying job because your employer moved his factory overseas, those cheap imports may not seem like such a great bargain on your reduced income. All too often, laid-off Americans can’t find anything that pays nearly as well as their old jobs and become drug addicts. I’m not saying cheap imports are entirely or even mostly responsible for layoffs and drug addiction, but they’re a significant factor.

It is actually a slow process of erosion over time so it is somewhat invisible until you open your eyes to see whole towns disappear as once thriving industries move away out of the country. The cost to the tax payers is about 600 BILLION per year in the loss of viable living wages we once had. I for one would have no problems with increase prices as they are artificially reduced anyway.

Maybe if we stop being the worlds consumer the increase price would not matter much as we would then buy only what we truly needed and not have a garage full of crap in boxes we spent 10,000s of dollars on...lol

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: pexx421

Your imaginary scenarios concerning China’s future behaviors is not equal to our historical record of America’s behaviors ala Iraq, Syria, all the Mideast really, and South America, indochina etc.

Lastly, our businesses moving to other nations as you accurately describe, do the same thing as our past relations with China. Erode the middle class, industrialize other nations, and make more profit for corporations that are not passed on to customers. The original deal that allowed us to outsource and relocate business to other nations was promised to provide better products to us consumers at lower prices. Instead it destroyed our middle class, and made us pay slightly cheaper prices for mass disposable junk. This only solves a problem for the corporations for those who actually are screwing us, and solves no problems for the American people.

One last thing you need to understand though I don't think you will ever agree with me is that China is doing what we did in the 1950s by using economic hit men tactics. What Corps did back then was not good in any sense of the word. They bought up governments by making a few in power rich and then they built dams, infrastructures, provided electricity etc and then they CHARGED 10 millions of people fees for all the God's work they did by enslaving the population to their self appointed debts. They also raped and pillaged the natural resources with no repercussions and no thought on destroying the local environment.

This is China today but on a grand worldwide scale that dwarfs what we did in the 50s. We did it and we learned, and other countries have paid a mean price for our failures, but this comes down to US or THEM. You can get on one side or the other and what China is working on is 10 times worst as the crap we pulled in the 50s. You can hate your own country (if you are an American), BUT China is not someone you should try to defend as the good guys. There is no goods guys in any of this, so you either accept America's rule or you accept Chin's rule...that is what it will come down to in the end.

Your choice bucko. For me, the Communist ruling we see in China is not what I want, nor do I want to see another round of economic hit men.

No xtro. I largely agree actually, excepting a few details. First off, China is far from communist. It’s more a state capitalist, and authoritarian much as we are.

Secondly, I certainly don’t hate the us. I think we’ve done far more destruction to the world and to people than China has. But as to having learned from our mistakes? Hardly. Our corporate sector has nearly learned the best ways to exploit more efficiently, and they are doing this to other nations by gunboat diplomacy whereas China is using a much more carrot approach.

And lastly I think you’re wrong in the “either us or them” choice. I think the best thing would be what we’re moving to which is multi polar. I think it will force governments to serve the people more, the same way competition forces companies to serve the people better.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Scapegrace
Many of those cheap imports come at the cost of American jobs, outsourced by the millions. If you’ve lost a good-paying job because your employer moved his factory overseas, those cheap imports may not seem like such a great bargain on your reduced income. All too often, laid-off Americans can’t find anything that pays nearly as well as their old jobs and become drug addicts. I’m not saying cheap imports are entirely or even mostly responsible for layoffs and drug addiction, but they’re a significant factor.

It is actually a slow process of erosion over time so it is somewhat invisible until you open your eyes to see whole towns disappear as once thriving industries move away out of the country. The cost to the tax payers is about 600 BILLION per year in the loss of viable living wages we once had. I for one would have no problems with increase prices as they are artificially reduced anyway.

Maybe if we stop being the worlds consumer the increase price would not matter much as we would then buy only what we truly needed and not have a garage full of crap in boxes we spent 10,000s of dollars on...lol

Agreed. I’d rather pay higher prices for American-made goods that support American workers.

a reply to: carewemust

The deep state is a bunch of commies that want to apologize for being america. That's why they allowed china (and everyone else, for that matter) to take advantage of us.