CNN's Cuomo accidentally explains exactly why the dems are responsible for the shut down

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Extorris

Right so you admit trump has listened to advice and is now recomending a barrier or wall or fence or whatever you want to call it that is exactly like the current one.

Even you seem unsure?

Again, if he hasn't even been clear about what he is going to build, let alone where and how and by whom, it is reckless, idiotic, or even immoral to write a check for 5 Billion dollars of taxpayer money.

He should propose specifics like every other spending request ever.

As it stands he appears to be struggling with even understanding the difference between wall and fence.

Dems and GOP proposed a bi-partisan 1.6 Billion spend on border security based on itemized requests and specifics by officials in December.

After Hannity and crew screamed that President Trump didn't get his "wall" money, President Trump decided to tell McConnell he would veto it.

If President Trump want's 5 Billion, then he should propose an actual plan, not just shout "wall" or is it "see-through wall" now?

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Extorris

So your point is what? Trump old proposal of what the wall should be was bad? Does that justify keeping the gov shutdown over the current proposal?

And by the way, he never had an old proposal.

Can you direct me to the specifics? Studies and explanations by border officials where and what would be built? Vendors? Materials? Costs?

He just barked "Wall" and asked for 5 Billion Dollars.

That is of course after yelling for over a year that Mexico was going to pay for it.

It would be the first time in history Congress wrote a 5 Billion Dollar check of taxpayer money based on someone saying the word "wall", or is it "see through wall" now?

Such insanity.

Nope. Never. The President can make a legitimate, detailed plan on what, where, why and how the 5 Billion Dollars will be spent, just like every other spending request in congress.

The notion that in his private business he would ever write someone a check for 5 Billion without even being sure of what is going to be built is ludicrous.

a reply to: Extorris

Right.

SO you have no explanation for how the barrier that trump is proposing now would be called immoral by dem leadership, but they voted for a very similar barrier in the past.

originally posted by: Extorris

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Extorris

So your point is what? Trump old proposal of what the wall should be was bad? Does that justify keeping the gov shutdown over the current proposal?

And by the way, he never had an old proposal.

Can you direct me to the specifics? Studies and explanations by border officials where and what would be built? Vendors? Materials? Costs?

He just barked "Wall" and asked for 5 Billion Dollars.

That is of course after yelling for over a year that Mexico was going to pay for it.

It would be the first time in history Congress wrote a 5 Billion Dollar check of taxpayer money based on someone saying the word "wall", or is it "see through wall" now?

Such insanity.

Nope. Never. The President can make a legitimate, detailed plan on what, where, why and how the 5 Billion Dollars will be spent, just like every other spending request in congress.

The notion that in his private business he would ever write someone a check for 5 Billion without even being sure of what is going to be built is ludicrous.

This is my biggest gripe about this wall. I’m more for it than against it, but in my line of work (property management) I don’t cut a check to anyone until I have a proposal with every material listed that will be used and a timeline of when things are going to happen and even then, I’ll scrutinize the hell out of them until I’m satisfied that it’s A) going to get the job done and B) cost efficient.

I’ve NEVER known the government to handle money well, even when they have a specific plan for it. Just because Trump is sticking to his word that he’s going to build a wall doesn’t mean I trust him enough to hand over $5B and say “Do as thou will” without specifics in place. I’ve heard it’s drones and other technology, concrete, steel, fencing, steel slats....this should have been figured out. Contractors should have been submitting proposals and prototypes the day he was elected, 2 years later there should be no reason ther is no definitive idea of what this structure will be.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Extorris

Right.

SO you have no explanation for how the barrier that trump is proposing now would be called immoral by dem leadership,

Can you link me to his proposal? Not his twitter feed.

but they voted for a very similar barrier in the past.

"very similar barrier"?

You mean steel slat fencing?

Yes Dems and GOP singed off on it. 650+ Miles of fencing, a third of the border with Mexico. At the request of experts and border officials when a full detailed proposal of what, where, why, when, and how and how much was presented in a PLAN.

That is how spending is approved.

Trump can't even wrap his head around wall or fence, let alone any PLAN.

"Wall" vacillating to "See Through Wall",
"Mexico will pay for it!" to "Give me 5 Billion dollars!!"
Mexicans are scary! Give me 5 Billion Dollars!

THAT is his plan thus far.

It is outrageous and idiotic to expect taxpayers to sign off on it.

Get back to me when you can actually explain in detail how 5 Billion dollars of our money will be spent and why.

a reply to: Extorris

What is the dem proposal exactly again?

Like kit or not, this is how budget proposals work.

The dems just said more money for drones, officers, etc. What are the specifics of their plan?

So they find trumps plan "immoral" when the voted for the exact same type of barrier before, because his plan isnt specific enough?

Perhaps the dems should say we dont know the specifics, and until then we wont vote for it.

Nope, instead they said its immoral and they wont give one dollar for it.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Extorris

What is the dem proposal exactly again?

Here was the "summary" that BOTH Dems and GOP agreed to based on what experts recommended and DHS and Customs and Border Patrol requested.

This is what President Trump originally said he would sign and then changed his mind in December after Hannity and other talking heads chided him for not getting his 5 Billion for a wall.

Customs and Border Protection. The bill provides $14.256 billion for Customs and Border Protection, $239 million more than fiscal year 2018 and $31 million more than the fiscal year 2019 request.

The bill includes funds to support the hiring of 375 new CBP officers for deployment to our air and land ports of entry and 375 new Border Patrol agents (instead of the 750 requested by the President).

In addition, $35 million is provided to relocate and retain existing agents, especially in remote locations.

A greater emphasis has also been placed on reliable and proven border solutions and funds critical investments in technologies and assets, including:

$98.6 million for countering opioids.
$174 million for non-intrusive inspection equipment at our ports.
$86 million for 3 additional multi-role enforcement aircraft to continue addressing aviation needs.
$14.5 million for integrated coastal interceptor vessels for patrolling our maritime borders.
$43.7 million for remote video surveillance systems.
$4 million for mobile surveillance capability.
$60 million for replacement vehicles.
$8.2 million to continue deploying new border technology including funds to address the cross-border tunnel threat.

This bill includes $1.6 billion for approximately 65 miles of pedestrian fencing in the Rio Grande Valley. The bill limits funds in the bill to currently deployed fencing design along the southern border, such as bollard fencing. The bill includes a prohibition on building any barrier in the Santa Ana National Wildlife Refuge and requires a comprehensive risk-based border security plan no later than 180 days after enactment.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement. $7.210 billion for Immigration and Customs Enforcement, $135 million more than fiscal year 2018, and $1.081 billion less than the fiscal year 2019 request. Funds in the bill ensure compliance with U.S. immigration laws while streamlining and facilitating the legal immigration process. Funds are continued to strongly support investigations into stopping human trafficking and smuggling, as well as efforts to prevent child sex tourism through funding of International Meagan’s Law.

www.appropriations.senate.gov...

You can read the full summary at the link.
The background material supporting the requests (if not Sensitive) is usually publicly posted before officially voting on the bill, but since President Trump flipped on McConnel and said he wouldn't support it, that background material for the requests is not publicly posted in one place, but some of the reports and studies have been published or cited by various news organizations.

a reply to: Extorris

Trump asks for money for the wall.

He doesnt write the legislation, thats the legislators job.

How many presidents say thinsg like "I want increased funding for the militray, or housing, or inster whatever project"

The congress then writes the legislation detailing exactly how that money is to be used.

Again, you avoid the point pelosi says no money will be given because trumps proposal is immoral. She is not saying she doesnt know the details, she is saying its immoral.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Extorris

Again, you avoid the point pelosi says no money will be given because trumps proposal is immoral. She is not saying she doesnt know the details, she is saying its immoral.

You would like me to explain or defend Nancy Pelosi's choice of adjectives when she speaks?

Maybe you are too entrenched in team politics to understand how odd a request that is.

I speak for myself, not my responsibility to own, explain or defend a strangers words.

a reply to: Grambler

The only person to blame for the shutdown is McConnell. The House passed a spending bill. A spending bill the Senate supported. Instead of doing what he was supposed to do, and bring the passed bill to deliberations or a vote in the Senate, he went to Daddy Trump and Trump said no. So the Senate did nothing.

That's the exact moment the process died, in the hands of Mitch McConnell.

If the bill was brought to a vote in the Senate and did not pass, so be it. now the shutdown is on Congress as a whole. However, if it passed, then it's on Trump to make the decision to veto. McConnell covered Daddy's ass by not letting it get to that point because he's scared there are enough votes to override the veto. Well, that's how the process is supposed to go.

The President, regardless of party, should NOT be involved in (or even a factor in) these negotiations beyond either signing a bill passed by Congress, or vetoing it.

It's McConnell's shutdown.

a reply to: Extorris

If 2/3 of the House and Senate can pass this bill...they can override a President's veto. So why did they not do this? Trump veto is meaningless when congress truly agrees upon legislation. So what is the hold up except for Dem drama and theatrics?

Edit add: same time it is Congress not doing their job. Both repubs and dems. Legislate already!

originally posted by: Extorris

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Extorris

Again, you avoid the point pelosi says no money will be given because trumps proposal is immoral. She is not saying she doesnt know the details, she is saying its immoral.

You would like me to explain or defend Nancy Pelosi's choice of adjectives when she speaks?

Maybe you are too entrenched in team politics to understand how odd a request that is.

I speak for myself, not my responsibility to own, explain or defend a strangers words.

The thread is about Cuomo showing why dem leadership like pelosi are in the wrong for their stance the wall is immoral, and how this proves they are the ones responsible for the bshutdown.

If we are talking about our personal opinions on what policy we would like to see and our complaints with how budget proposals are made, I have plenty to complaain about as wlel.

But thats not what this thread was about.

a reply to: CynConcepts

Because the Senate refuses to take it up, even though they originally said they had the votes to pass it.

a reply to: usernameconspiracy
The dems in the senate could have been in favor of the bill that passed the republican house and funded the wall, but they chose not to.

Its both sides fault; the question is which side is more to blame.

The dems refusing to negotiate because the wall is immoral, the same wall they voted for before, shows they are more at fault.

originally posted by: CynConcepts
a reply to: Extorris

If 2/3 of the House and Senate can pass this bill...they can override a President's veto. So why did they not do this?

The House just passed another bill to re-open gov with 8 GOP signing on to the Dem Majority.

The issue in the Senate is that Mitch McConnell determines what bills get a vote or not.
Whether two thirds would vote for it or not is a moot point if the bill is never brought up for a vote.

My feeling is that Mitch should allow the bill to be voted on. everyone can go on record and congress can do what they are supposed to. If it passes and the President wants to veto, he can do that.

If congress wants to over-ride (2/3rds) then they can do that. If congress doesn't have the votes to do that then they will fail to over-ride the veto.

Either way everyone goes on record where they stand and government operates as designed as independent branches of government in the public light. We can assign blame once everyone has voted or vetoed.

Much better than never even allowing a bill to be voted on and just declaring a national emergency to circumvent congress.

If you want my objective opinion, the one most responsible for the Shut-Down is Mitch McConnell for obstructing the normal system of independent branches of government and refusing to bring any bill up for a vote before the Senate without the President approving first. Put the bills up for vote. Let congress do what they are supposed to do, go on record and VOTE, pass or fail.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Extorris

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Extorris

Again, you avoid the point pelosi says no money will be given because trumps proposal is immoral. She is not saying she doesnt know the details, she is saying its immoral.

You would like me to explain or defend Nancy Pelosi's choice of adjectives when she speaks?

Maybe you are too entrenched in team politics to understand how odd a request that is.

I speak for myself, not my responsibility to own, explain or defend a strangers words.

The thread is about Cuomo showing why dem leadership like pelosi are in the wrong for their stance the wall is immoral, and how this proves they are the ones responsible for the bshutdown.

A) Trump proudly owns the Shut-Down.
B) I like you inadvertent mash-up of BS and Shutdown I think that is how it should be referred to from now on.

originally posted by: Extorris

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Extorris

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Extorris

Again, you avoid the point pelosi says no money will be given because trumps proposal is immoral. She is not saying she doesnt know the details, she is saying its immoral.

You would like me to explain or defend Nancy Pelosi's choice of adjectives when she speaks?

Maybe you are too entrenched in team politics to understand how odd a request that is.

I speak for myself, not my responsibility to own, explain or defend a strangers words.

The thread is about Cuomo showing why dem leadership like pelosi are in the wrong for their stance the wall is immoral, and how this proves they are the ones responsible for the bshutdown.

A) Trump proudly owns the Shut-Down.
B) I like you inadvertent mash-up of BS and Shutdown

I think that is how it should be referred to from now on.

A) regardless of what trumps says, we see dems calling the same type of wall they voted for in the past immoral and refusing to negotiate based on that, meaning they are more responsible.

B) Yes that type was a happy accident, BShutdown sounds about right.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Extorris

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Extorris

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Extorris

Again, you avoid the point pelosi says no money will be given because trumps proposal is immoral. She is not saying she doesnt know the details, she is saying its immoral.

You would like me to explain or defend Nancy Pelosi's choice of adjectives when she speaks?

Maybe you are too entrenched in team politics to understand how odd a request that is.

I speak for myself, not my responsibility to own, explain or defend a strangers words.

The thread is about Cuomo showing why dem leadership like pelosi are in the wrong for their stance the wall is immoral, and how this proves they are the ones responsible for the bshutdown.

A) Trump proudly owns the Shut-Down.
B) I like you inadvertent mash-up of BS and Shutdown

I think that is how it should be referred to from now on.

A) regardless of what trumps says, we see dems calling the same type of wall they voted for in the past

Steel Slat Fencing.

they never voted to build a "wall"

originally posted by: Extorris

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Extorris

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Extorris

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Extorris

Again, you avoid the point pelosi says no money will be given because trumps proposal is immoral. She is not saying she doesnt know the details, she is saying its immoral.

You would like me to explain or defend Nancy Pelosi's choice of adjectives when she speaks?

Maybe you are too entrenched in team politics to understand how odd a request that is.

I speak for myself, not my responsibility to own, explain or defend a strangers words.

The thread is about Cuomo showing why dem leadership like pelosi are in the wrong for their stance the wall is immoral, and how this proves they are the ones responsible for the bshutdown.

A) Trump proudly owns the Shut-Down.
B) I like you inadvertent mash-up of BS and Shutdown

I think that is how it should be referred to from now on.

A) regardless of what trumps says, we see dems calling the same type of wall they voted for in the past

Steel Slat Fencing.

they never voted to build a "wall"

That is exactly what trump is now proposing that they say is immoral, no matter what term you wish to call it.

a reply to: Grambler

Do some math for me

1900 Miles - Border with Mexico
650-700 Miles - Already has fencing.

Leaves 1200-1300 miles without "barrier"

Where’s wall, though?
The border wall has been a consistent Trump theme since he kicked off his presidential bid in June 2015, but Trump has not been consistent on key details, like how long the wall would be, what it would look like and what it would cost.

After suggesting the whole, 2,000-mile border might be walled, Trump said he’d build a 1,000-mile wall along the southern border. Since, he has scaled the length of the barrier down to “700 or 900” miles.

Beyond that, he has said the wall would cost $4 billion; he’s also said it could cost $20 billion, a figure reportedly in line with internal estimates from the Department of Homeland Security.

Trump has said the wall could be 35 feet tall, or 45 feet tall, or higher, and he’s given several different ways Mexico could pay for it, all of which have been soundly rejected by Mexico.

What is known: the wall would cover some stretch of border between the U.S. and Mexico, and it could include constructing new barriers and also improving existing barriers. Fixing existing walls is something the administration has found money to do, fueling Trump claims that the wall is being built already.

About 650 miles of the border — particularly around what once were high-volume crossing areas in California — already have some wall or fence, but only 300 miles of fencing is designed to stop the movement of people, according to a USA Today investigation.

Many of the roughly 1,350 miles of unfenced border are in remote areas with unforgiving geographical features, which even Trump has said makes a wall unnecessary in those areas.

www.minnpost.com... down-the-government-though/

So roughly only 650 miles (1900 of the border - 1350 even Trump says is unnecessary) need fencing.
And 650 miles are fenced already. 450 of those miles, the fencing is insufficient to stop people from crossing.

What does that leave?

Upgrading fencing.

That is what the GOP and Dems agreed on in the December proposal.
1.6 Billion for upgrading existing fencing.

The problem is that it does not comport with Trump's campaign rhetoric.

We should not be on the hook for campaign stunts.