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Can a vehicle get auxiliary power through a PTO mount in the transmission?

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posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 10:21 AM
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I've seen trucks with PTO's mounted on the transmission and I'm wondering if it would be possible to send power back into the transmission (and thus to the wheels) through one of these PTO connections. Let's say that the PTO isn't being used for something like a snow blower or hydraulics or whatever but instead has an auxiliary motor on it (electronic or whatever - don't assume it is electric!) that can send power back into the transmission (motor has own gears/transmission to match speed & torque). I know these PTO's are usually rated in HP and some of them are 300+ HP (truck engine rated at over 500HP usually), meaning that is what they put out when drawing power from the main engine. I understand that the power sent to the transmission through the aux motor/PTO will be limited by the size of the aux motor, so I don't need explanations of that.

What I'm wondering over-all is if an aux power source can be fed into the powertrain of the vehicle to run in combination with the main motor. So if the aux motor can put out 100HP, and the PTO can handle over 100HP (and assuming the transmission can handle the extra power above the stock engine power), can this extra power be used?

My main thought is for additional power sent to the wheels when it is needed such as hard acceleration, up-hill driving, etc.

IDK what kind of losses there would be when putting power back into the transmission in this manner or if there are other alternatives where an auxiliary motor can assist the main motor - similar to how hybrids work with an electric along with a standard motor.
edit on 12 13 2018 by DigginFoTroof because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 10:39 AM
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a reply to: DigginFoTroof

in theory - POSSIBLY

in practice - utterly unfeasible

in the real world - a 400hp engine + a booster 100hp engine are considerably heavier , more complerx , more volume than a 500 HP main powerpack

ETA : the only practical thing i can think of - was a WWII or possibly cold war era vhehicle - that IIRC - used 2 engines - and 4 axles - each wil independant hydraulic drive - one engone drove axle 1 + 4 as a " ecconomy mode " 8 * 4 configuration - with engine 2 being engaged to power axle 2 +3 for 8*8 power over terrain - it also had amphib capacity - with both engines linked to independant water drive for econmoy or hi speed ops

and i cannot remember what it was - and google fu has failed me

edit on 13-12-2018 by ignorant_ape because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 10:59 AM
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If it's am automatic transmission, the answer is an almost definite no- they're essentially hydraulic pumps, and giving a hydraulic output some input will do nothing at best, damage at worst.



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 11:11 AM
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No!

That makes as much sense as charging a battery by hooking it up to itself.

Your engine has a finite output and that output is transmitted through the transmission. Any load you put on the drive-train through the PTO will reduce the amount of power delivered to the rest of the system.

To oversimplify it, if your engine is producing x horsepower, then that amount of horsepower is going to your output (drive axles). If you connect something (anything) to your PTO and that something uses y horsepower, then your output to your drive-axles will be reduced by Y, resulting in X-Y horsepower to your drive axles.

You'd be robbing Peter to pay Paul, so to speak. There is no more energy in the system.



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 11:16 AM
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originally posted by: incoserv
No!

That makes as much sense as charging a battery by hooking it up to itself.

Your engine has a finite output and that output is transmitted through the transmission. Any load you put on the drive-train through the PTO will reduce the amount of power delivered to the rest of the system.

To oversimplify it, if your engine is producing x horsepower, then that amount of horsepower is going to your output (drive axles). If you connect something (anything) to your PTO and that something uses y horsepower, then your output to your drive-axles will be reduced by Y, resulting in X-Y horsepower to your drive axles.

You'd be robbing Peter to pay Paul, so to speak. There is no more energy in the system.


Wow, did you read the post? I went into detail to spell it out to specifically avoid posts like this.

Unbelievable people on this board. If I'm wrong and what I wrote EVER inferred what you wrote, I apologize, but it seems everyone above you has understood what I wrote and probably READ the post.

I specifically said that what is connected PRODUCES power, not draws it, as in an AUXILARY motor of some type.

Seriously it's things like this that destroy internet discussion when you don't read. I do thank you for the attempt though, that is admirable, but not reading the post is a major PITA and it happens too much in other threads as well (not specifically with you, just lots of people)..
edit on 12 13 2018 by DigginFoTroof because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 11:17 AM
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a reply to: DigginFoTroof

My question would be why can't each wheel turn a generator which would recharge its own battery pack. A computer would control which wheel is engaged....and when it gets low...switch power to another wheel. Redesign the shell to be a generator.



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 11:20 AM
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double post

dsfdsafsdf
edit on 12 13 2018 by DigginFoTroof because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 11:22 AM
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originally posted by: lakenheath24
a reply to: DigginFoTroof

My question would be why can't each wheel turn a generator which would recharge its own battery pack. A computer would control which wheel is engaged....and when it gets low...switch power to another wheel. Redesign the shell to be a generator.


IDK, why can't they? I didn't ask that did I.

I did kind of say that the motor WASN'T electrical and all, but whatever. Either way, that wasn't the question I posted.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea or anything, it's just not what I was exploring.
edit on 12 13 2018 by DigginFoTroof because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 11:49 AM
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Guys, a horsepower is a finite unit of work over a given distance at a known time interval.

No matter how you slice it...there is "no free lunch".

DFT, in your example, you could probably come up with some arrangement of auxiliary power to a transmission or drivetrain, but this auxiliary power will require a potential energy source (fuel of some kind). The net result of the system might result in a net hp increase, but it would also require proportionately more potential energy/ fuel to accomplish.



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 12:03 PM
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a reply to: DigginFoTroof

Your thread reminded me of an old article I read about a guy wanting more power he sliced the front half a FWD car and welded it to the rear half of a RWD with the engine in the rear.....



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 12:27 PM
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a reply to: DigginFoTroof

I think it possible, but the reality is you would need to do a lot of tweaking for the main engine's software...

The transmission software as well, unless you would just go old school with a carb and a single wire distributor with a manual advance for the power plant.

Regenerative braking is already being done to charge the battery (Prius, Civic Hybrid, Tesla off the top of my head...)

I think the problem to me would be that the problem has already been solved with hybrids.

With all the other good things that come with an electric motor between the engine and the transmission.

That way you need no starter (the electric motor serves as that), you need no alternator (electric motor is doing that as well) and you tie it in with regenerative braking and you just have an engineering solution that is more efficient than your PTO one.

So doable? Of course.

Practical? Not so much, in my humble opinion.




posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 12:36 PM
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You could possibly add power through that system. There could be a one way slip converter in it though somewhere along the line, like the ones for overdrive. I think in a car with an automatic that may be a problem but in a manual transmission probably not so much. I had a truck that would freewheel in fourth/overdrive and it was a stick. I would think that if your going through all that trouble you should use the four wheel drive unit to make a big lawnmower out of your car, that would be much simpler and think of the grass a double 42 inch mower would mow. Just adapt two mower carriages from junkyard mowers onto your car. Or run a logsplitter off of it, all you need is a welder, valve, and ram..



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 02:35 PM
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Yeah it would work, but it would be tough to sync it so the torque is steady all the time.
You'd have weird drivetrain issues since there is freeplay/backlash inthe the drivetrain.
I can push my parked chevy back and fourth about 3" when parked. All that play would chatter like crazy and probably destroy the drivetrain if both driven sources don't sync exactly. When you take off power from one, you don't want to have the other one lag behind and force the drivetrain to load and unload that much, if that makes sense. Especially tough with 2 gas motors, easier w a computer torque control and electric motor.



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 02:42 PM
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Here's the proper way to hook up multiple engines. You can time and sync the 2 together by bolting in same degree and feeding ignotion from same source. They build this way in crazy vehicles like funny cars, boats and tractor pull cars. You do all this before the drivetrain.




Pretty awesome.



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 04:10 PM
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a reply to: manuelram16

That sounds like an episode of the Red Green show!

"If the women don't find ya handsome, they should at least find ya handy!"

LOL!


edit on 12/13/2018 by Flyingclaydisk because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 06:33 PM
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a reply to: DigginFoTroof

I have no idea as far as an answer but im just curious, where is that aux motor mounted?



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 11:23 PM
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originally posted by: ignorant_ape
a reply to: DigginFoTroof

in theory - POSSIBLY

in practice - utterly unfeasible

in the real world - a 400hp engine + a booster 100hp engine are considerably heavier , more complerx , more volume than a 500 HP main powerpack

ETA : the only practical thing i can think of - was a WWII or possibly cold war era vhehicle - that IIRC - used 2 engines - and 4 axles - each wil independant hydraulic drive - one engone drove axle 1 + 4 as a " ecconomy mode " 8 * 4 configuration - with engine 2 being engaged to power axle 2 +3 for 8*8 power over terrain - it also had amphib capacity - with both engines linked to independant water drive for econmoy or hi speed ops

and i cannot remember what it was - and google fu has failed me


I have just the thing for you

The M561 Gamma Goat


and if that wasn't it perhaps the T18 Boarhound?

en.wikipedia.org...
or
www.militaryfactory.com...
edit on 13-12-2018 by dubiousatworst because: other possibility



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 10:00 PM
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I Think this is possible through the use of a power return turbine.

On some of the old aircraft radial engines, say the Curtis wright 3350, they had 3 turbines hooked to the exhaust that turned shafts connected to a hydrocouple that in turn powered the crank shaft, and someone one told me accounted for 30 percent more horsepower.



posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 09:49 PM
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originally posted by: DigginFoTroof

originally posted by: incoserv
No!

That makes as much sense as charging a battery by hooking it up to itself.

Your engine has a finite output and that output is transmitted through the transmission. Any load you put on the drive-train through the PTO will reduce the amount of power delivered to the rest of the system.

To oversimplify it, if your engine is producing x horsepower, then that amount of horsepower is going to your output (drive axles). If you connect something (anything) to your PTO and that something uses y horsepower, then your output to your drive-axles will be reduced by Y, resulting in X-Y horsepower to your drive axles.

You'd be robbing Peter to pay Paul, so to speak. There is no more energy in the system.


Wow, did you read the post? I went into detail to spell it out to specifically avoid posts like this.

Unbelievable people on this board. If I'm wrong and what I wrote EVER inferred what you wrote, I apologize, but it seems everyone above you has understood what I wrote and probably READ the post.

I specifically said that what is connected PRODUCES power, not draws it, as in an AUXILARY motor of some type.

Seriously it's things like this that destroy internet discussion when you don't read. I do thank you for the attempt though, that is admirable, but not reading the post is a major PITA and it happens too much in other threads as well (not specifically with you, just lots of people)..


You said it was a [b[PTO. PTO stands for POWER TAKE OFF. Typically, a PTO takes power from some source. The only source from which a PTO can take off power from a running vehicle is from the drive train (i.e., the engine and transmission). If it has an auxiliary motor, it's not really a PTO.







 
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