French—Italian tensions escalate over Libya, migrants

How France and Italy’s Rivalry Is Hurting Libya

And How the Palermo Conference Can Help
By Federica Saini Fasanotti and Ben Fishman

Since the 2011 revolution against Muammar al-Qaddafi, Libyans have often blamed outside actors for their continuing woes. Too frequently, this grievance has been overstated and used as an excuse to minimize the hard compromises that Libyans themselves need to undertake to achieve a durable peace. Over the last year, however, both France and Italy have played a more intrusive role in Libyan politics, undermining rather than supporting the UN-led peace initiative. Italy’s new populist government has introduced anti-immigration measures that threaten to keep hundreds of thousands of migrants stranded in Libya, with potentially disastrous results. At the same time, the French-Italian rivalry over migration, the future of Europe, and the question of whether Paris or Rome should be the leading international voice on Libyan affairs is compounding Libya’s already serious problems.

Italy is now organizing an international conference on Libya set for November 12–13. Rome has an opportunity to help the UN advance several crucial elements of its peace efforts, including organizing Libyan national elections and reaching a lasting security arrangement. Conversely, if the Italian government uses its conference to sideline UN Libya envoy Ghassan Salamé, fight publicly with the French, and trumpet its policies on migration, it will further confuse Libya’s chaotic politics.

However, French-Italian differences are motivated more by politics than by divergent interests in Libya. Macron considers himself—and France—to be the standard bearer for the EU, defending liberal values and international cooperation in a time of rising populist nationalism. Naturally, he sees the new Italian government as a threat to his political vision. In a June 21 speech, Macron compared the spread of populism to “leprosy” and warned Europeans against those who “hate Europe”—a thinly veiled reference to the Italian government. Italy’s Deputy Prime Minister Luigi Di Maio, the leader of the M5S, fired back, “The real leprosy is the hypocrisy” of Macron, who in June had criticized Italy’s stance on migration but refused to allow a rescue ship with 600 migrants to dock in France. Macron doubled down on his views in his September speech to the UN General Assembly, proclaiming, “France will be there to ensure the world does not forget that the din of nationalism always leads to the abyss.” With France’s Libya policy run out of the Élysée and Salvini serving as the most powerful figure in Italy’s coalition, this rivalry is sure to persist—at the expense of Libyans

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Related:

Italy brand France a 'disgrace' after police dump migrants across border

Tensions between the neighbors have risen as Rome has accused Paris of hypocrisy by refusing to take in a fair share of the hundreds of thousands of migrants who have reached Italy by boat since 2014.

This is more hilariously stupid than it is concerning in my opinion. Napoleon and Germanicus must be rolling in their graves. I guess my only question is, do the French surrender before Italy can retreat?

France played a leading role in destroying Libya, I say they bear the burden of trying to set things right. Not sure how that could happen but I don't think Italy took part in the bombing campaign that enabled ISIS to overthrow Khadaffi. That was one of the stupidest, most arrogant interventions ever taken and it was mainly done out of greed I believe.

If Europe were to close their borders they could stop the influx of immigrant coming to Libya. Start there.

a reply to: IndyFront

And yet France has the gall to talk about Trump?

a reply to: IndyFront

Have I missed how this is an indicator of WWIII?

Libya is really the gateway between Africa and Europe. Because the country is nearly all desert which used to be sea bed, all that sand is impossible to drive on. The only exception is the desert road which was constructed decades ago. When Muammar al-Qaddafi was in power, the secret police kept a tight grip on any people smuggling let alone anything else.

Once he was removed from power, all the local tribes saw there was money to be made from trafficking people to Europe and onto Italy, Malta and Greece. Turkey is way off to the West so that's a different issue. Malta just passes the refugees onto Italy, and other countries have blocked their borders. So the pressure is going to Italy. France will just assist them to move to England. So Italy holds the cards here. If they block up their borders, one of Italy's former colonies explodes.

en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: stormcell
Turkey is way off to the West so that's a different issue.

East...

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: IndyFront

Have I missed how this is an indicator of WWIII?

Even NATO members are going after each other now.

originally posted by: IndyFront

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: IndyFront

Have I missed how this is an indicator of WWIII?

Even NATO members are going after each other now.

We've had disputes before.

Did I miss threats of violence?

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
France America played a leading role in destroying Libya

Fixed

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

...France has the gall...

I see what you did there gall...Gaul...

originally posted by: odzeandennz

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
France America played a leading role in destroying Libya

Fixed

Fix a little deeper

23 February 2011: French President Nicolas Sarkozy pushed for the European Union (EU) to pass sanctions against Gaddafi (freezing Gaddafi family funds abroad) and demand he stop attacks against civilians.
25 February 2011: Sarkozy said Gaddafi "must go.

19 March 2011: French[76] forces began the military intervention in Libya, later joined by coalition forces with strikes against armoured units south of Benghazi and attacks on Libyan air-defence systems, as UN Security Council Resolution 1973 called for using "all necessary means" to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas from attack, imposed a no-fly zone, and called for an immediate and with-standing cease-fire, while also strengthening travel bans on members of the regime, arms embargoes, and asset freezes

Sarkozy was pushing it and France drew first blood.
en.wikipedia.org...

Pussy whipped Sarkozy really did push for this. Did his Italian wife bemoan how former Italian colony Libya should be brought back into the Italian colonial fold?

originally posted by: IndyFront

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: IndyFront

Have I missed how this is an indicator of WWIII?

Even NATO members are going after each other now.

This immigrant/economic migrant/asylum seeker situation has been going on for ages. UK tries to put up border barriers in order to stop London continue to become a migrant magnet. France tries to roll them through to the UK. Italy tried to funnel them to the neighbouring countries. Spain put up barriers. Eastern block countries like Poland, Hungary and Austria have put up barriers. Greece, Spain and Italy are at the frontline and are being overloaded. When they put up barriers, that blows back the problem to Libya and countries beyond:

time.com...
www.theatlantic.com...

Italy now cozying up to Iran militarily:

Iran Says It Will Send Its Military to Italy, Where U.S. Command Is Based
Iran to send naval vessels to Italy
Libya, the US, and the Palermo Conference

Libya could also help the United States with its newly-reimposed Iranian sanctions. The drive to eliminate Iranian oil from the market will lead to an increase in oil prices that would hurt industrialized economies. Increased oil production in Libya following stabilization of the country could help the United States keep the price of oil low, while squeezing Iran out of the market.

France is starting to look increasingly isolated, save for its allies in Germany.

originally posted by: stormcell

originally posted by: IndyFront

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: IndyFront

Have I missed how this is an indicator of WWIII?

Even NATO members are going after each other now.

This immigrant/economic migrant/asylum seeker situation has been going on for ages. UK tries to put up border barriers in order to stop London continue to become a migrant magnet. France tries to roll them through to the UK. Italy tried to funnel them to the neighbouring countries. Spain put up barriers. Eastern block countries like Poland, Hungary and Austria have put up barriers. Greece, Spain and Italy are at the frontline and are being overloaded. When they put up barriers, that blows back the problem to Libya and countries beyond:

time.com...
www.theatlantic.com...

This is true, but my interest is in the realignment and how everything we think we know of what a WWIII-type situation would look like is off the table. Its no longer far-off and disparate perpendicular peoples who are different from us Americans, the Red Dawn-style Asiatic and Middle-Eastern hordes of up until recently perpetually seen as the prime villain of the West, depicted - erroneously - as the 'hero', but now countries of people who look like us, as well as those that were once our closest allies. There are no rules. Nobody knows for sure what's going to happen in the near future since Trump bucked the trend and fooled everyone. The world is upside down. Anybody who says: A and B will happen because C, as oppose to: Well, A is possible because B, but then again there's that C - is probably full of #. I'm not asserting anything as a reality but merely calling it like I see it.

a reply to: CriticalStinker
Turkey and Greece. Plus their guys keep shooting at our Americans on the Syrian/Rojava border.

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: IndyFront

Have I missed how this is an indicator of WWIII?

It won't be as the french have already surrendered.

a reply to: IndyFront
Iran making port of call in Italy?? I will believe it when I see it. Last year, or maybe earlier this year they claimed they would be patrolling in the West Atlantic. That never manifested from what I can remember.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
And yet France has the gaul to talk about Trump?

That's better....

originally posted by: worldstarcountry
a reply to: CriticalStinker
Turkey and Greece. Plus their guys keep shooting at our Americans on the Syrian/Rojava border.

I haven't heard anything about that.

Even so, we're in a proxy, we know things get dicey.

I'd see Iran and Isreal sparking a major conflict before Turkey, Greece, France, or Italy.

That being said, I still fail to see how this thread is at all related to WWIII.