The US Army says its new guns will 'penetrate any known body armour'

I'd like to see a DryWired Nanoarmor test.

www.defensereview.com... ackface-deformation-signature-video/

Up to .50 caliber protection.

a reply to: dragonridr

I agree with the prone argument and the 30 round mags. However, I'm not sure I agree with the 300m+ argument.

What's the hit ratio in a high intensity fight outside 200m in the desert? 1:100 maybe? Higher? We're not talking about squads of trained snipers here, but rather boots. Sure, a soldier is trained to hit a target at 300m...in a controlled setting...out in the open...with no one shooting back at him. Now try that same thing from behind cover, in an awkward position, under heavy fire. He's not going to take the time to set up a shot, he's going to dump a few rounds and duck.

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: roguetechie

Im going to assume you have no combat training. In Afganistan most firefights are at 300 meters or more. If they are waring body armor 5.56 doesn't even cause them to flinch. Luckily AK 47s have a longer range but accuracy is terrible. But even getting hit by a lucky shot at 400 meters will kill you. To say we don't need a rifle that can say hello at 500 meters. Desert warfare is entirely different then say jungle.

As for the new rounds telescoped ammunition has huge advantages. One the new 6.5-millimeter round has 300 percent more energy than the standard U.S. Army bullet. Its available in 5.5,6.5 and 7.5. The military is thinking use the 6.5 for all around use. Now there is a reason they use 20 round mags but has nothing to do with weight.

The reason for the 20 round magazines is too long a magazine blocks the user from shooting while prone. However 30 round mags shouldn't be a problem for most shooters. Basically same problem m16 has over 30 rounds you end up using your magazine as a tripod. One other advantage of telescoped ammo is you can start making different types of rounds for future use.

Umm actually the 5.56 is a better longer range round than the 7.62x39 and also better at penetrating body armor.

Here once again we have a solution in search of a problem, where no problem exists. And we wonder why military spending is so high. How about we equip troops better with more of what we already have, rather than developing something new to solve a problem that doesn't exist?

Inconvenient Fact: Combatants against all modern military forces in the past 100 years haven't been wearing body armor at all. Hell, they were lucky if they had shoes even! Yet here we are trying to figure out a solution to fighting a combatant outfitted in 21st century body armor.

If we wanted to spend money on something, how about figuring out how to make lighter, less restrictive, cooler, body armor for our own troops??? Now that's something I could get behind!

a reply to: CaptainBeno

I do not see the point in making an announcement like this, without actually revealing the thing to the world. Until they were ready to show the thing either in a photograph, or in operation in a video, there was really no reason for them to actually say anything about it at all. It makes very little sense to me. The effectiveness of a weapon in its initial stages, is much greater when the enemy have no idea that it exists.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Which is exactly my point; it's all hype to make people 'okay' with spending money on, and solving, a problem which doesn't exist.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: CaptainBeno

I do not see the point in making an announcement like this, without actually revealing the thing to the world. Until they were ready to show the thing either in a photograph, or in operation in a video, there was really no reason for them to actually say anything about it at all. It makes very little sense to me. The effectiveness of a weapon in its initial stages, is much greater when the enemy have no idea that it exists.

A new round/rifle is pretty low on the priority list for things you don’t want your enemies to know about, this isn’t some revolutionary advancement that will completely reshape the battlefield. The effectiveness of the system isn’t going to be effected by it being known.

I think we should appropriate a couple billion dollars for developing RFID badges that enemy combatants would be required to wear. This way we can reduce / eliminate collateral civilian damage and positively ID enemy combatants.

BTW...Did you know I'm running for the Senate!

ETA - If elected, I will also advocate for research and development of dehydrated water for our troops. This will be revolutionary in reducing weight and allowing our troops to carry more ammo!

/sarcasm

a reply to: CaptainBeno

A better way of killing poor brown people from afar with extra added lethality!

These things are going to be an automatic hit.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

They have... Flow formed inconel...

Also... New CT is not old CT and isn't really all that telescoped at all for one which between that, the separate chamber, and the nose cap functioning as a demented pseudo sabot (Especially on the VLD pills they're using)...

Well... Some genuine magic really does happen.

It's not gonna be nearly as hard on barrels as it "should be" even if they have to run it at 100ksi.

It's 100% doable in every way, and will likely function extremely well honestly.

That's not the issue.

The issue is assuming absolutely best case recoil management strategies blast and signature mitigation all come together... It's still gonna buck at LEAST as hard as an akm in full auto. In semi, it's going to buck much harder. A friend looked at some numbers and if this cartridge goes through as is, it'll be the single most powerful service rifle cartridge EVER! The energy level we're talking is far beyond 8x63 bofors 30-06 m1, or anything else issued (by several hundred joules)

There's no free lunches, so this is a problem.

originally posted by: CaptainBeno
Cool! I can't wait to see this in civilian hands (Tongue firmly placed in cheek).....cough. Sorry no picture

The U.S. Army's chief of staff said Monday that its 6.8mm next-generation weapons, slated to replace the M249 squad automatic weapon and the M4A1 carbine, will be able to penetrate any body armour on the battlefield.

"It will fire at speeds that far exceed the velocity of bullets today, and it will penetrate any existing or known ... body armour that's out there," Gen. Mark Milley told Military.com at the 2018 Association of the United States Army's Annual Meeting and Exposition. "What I have seen so far from the engineers and the folks that put these things together, this is entirely technologically possible. ... It's a very good weapon."

News Source

The Russians and Chinese get the plans for these types of things long before the news of these weapons hits the American News Media...Not good for our service men and women...

a reply to: dragonridr

I'm struggling to be nice here considering your opening and just how hilariously wrong literally almost everything you said was.

1. "Ak-47's" firing 7.62x39 m43 ammo are 300 meter guns full stop. It's The craptastic rainbow trajectory ya see. Now if you're talking ak-74's like my tantal in 5.45x39... Yeah those are 500 meter guns in the hands of someone who knows how to use them all day. (Like me for instance) Guess what aren't in Afghanistan in appreciable numbers though? Ak-74 analogs firing 5.45x39!!!

2. The US HAS a general issue 500++ meter gun and ammo combination now called the m4a1 with mk318 or m855a1! Guys routinely hit beyond 600 and occasionally to a little beyond 700 with them already in some units. (Aka the units where trained shooters tend to congregate or be born from)

3. No most firefights don't happen beyond 300 in Afghanistan, but substantially higher percentages than normal do indeed occur. Check your sources.

4. Considering you don't even know NGSAR is specced for a 6.8 round maybe you don't know as much as you think you do...

5. Yeah i know what's been done on the LSAT progran pretty extensively... P.s. the french used 7.5mm ammo in the gun before the famas, but we Americans use and develop 7.62 rounds... Details matter.

6. Where did you get the weight b.s. from again? The NGSAR will be limited to 20's because it requires dead straight mags and a 30 would be 9.5-10 inches long period! That's not in any way a some dudes can still fire it prone situation.

Hey... Uh what were you saying about what "i don't know" again?

Because every single one of your "points" is wrong/utter fantasy. And yeah, this was me being gentle... You said some other even stupider and even more laughable stuff i didn't bother to ding you on, but believe me... I CAN.

I’m just squirting with joy at this. A weapon that when fired from one man at another, goes in deeper hard and faster.
May we all fire many rounds at each other and do our best to support the selfless inventors and manufacturers of things to kill and maim each other with.

No offense to the op or anyone else.... just lost a brave and young friend to cancer and guns seems so pathetic right now...
and that little puff of steam I just blew off helped me a lot.
Anger subsiding a little p.
Thanks a.t.s

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

LOL NOPE!!

armor that can stop an m2 AP round (actually 3+ for most common armor) is laughably common and cheap.

And 7.62x39 especially in the m43 loading is depressingly easy to stop (hint: the ECH helmet stops it without even deforming enough to hurt you severely)

I don't know where you guys are getting your information from, but the early 90's gun message boards called and they want their WAG's and grievously flawed assumptions back...

originally posted by: BigDave-AR
The M855a1 and M89a1 5.56 and 7.62nato respectively are already real strong penetrators with better terminal ballistics than prior projectile designs. I’m all for moving to a 6.8 platform but I don’t think penetration is the main advantage for going with an all new caliber. I got my hands on some M855a1 and it’s expensive as sin but the stuff is damn near unstoppable.

Here's a little common sense from someone who knows little to nothing about guns. These guns will eventually get on the streets. Even if they are larger now, the technology will be made more manageable. What protection will anyone, including cops have at that point?

In a war setting, who cares if you can penetrate armor? They can just blow the crap out them with explosives or other weapons. This is just one more technology that will be used by those with bad intentions to kill the innocent.

a reply to: pointessa

And armor will just get better in turn...

The what if it gets loose on the streets argument is irrelevant and assumes as natural manifestly unnatural and very toxic to a society levels of "gun control" being in play.

Of course it's going to get loose!

Also, the average American rifle squad faces a severe paucity of good high explosive options with which to do as you suggest, and will continue to have this deficit for the foreseeable future.

So in other words, no they can't "just blow them up".

originally posted by: pointessa

originally posted by: BigDave-AR
The M855a1 and M89a1 5.56 and 7.62nato respectively are already real strong penetrators with better terminal ballistics than prior projectile designs. I’m all for moving to a 6.8 platform but I don’t think penetration is the main advantage for going with an all new caliber. I got my hands on some M855a1 and it’s expensive as sin but the stuff is damn near unstoppable.

Here's a little common sense from someone who knows little to nothing about guns. These guns will eventually get on the streets. Even if they are larger now, the technology will be made more manageable. What protection will anyone, including cops have at that point?

In a war setting, who cares if you can penetrate armor? They can just blow the crap out them with explosives or other weapons. This is just one more technology that will be used by those with bad intentions to kill the innocent.

Actually when it comes to small arms the military is usually behind the curve, a well built civilian AR15 will outshoot a GI M4/M16 any day of the week. Also there’s all of the civilian rounds and loading that are far superior to milspec loadings. The military doesn’t have a lead in all fields like some people think.

a reply to: BigDave-AR

To say the least... My good AR makes the URG look tame in every way except i use the cheaper night force nx8 LPVO not the spiffy good one socom just bought for URG. (The nx8 is "only $1800 as compared to the something like $2600 of it's big brother socom selected)

But in most other ways my AR is actually running superior parts to the URG across the board.

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof The 22/250 or 22 hornet are both about 3,800-4,000fps and the barrels are often burnt up within a few hundred rounds (under 1,000).

The .22 hornet is a lower velocity round. You are thinking of the .220 Swift

originally posted by: pteridine

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof The 22/250 or 22 hornet are both about 3,800-4,000fps and the barrels are often burnt up within a few hundred rounds (under 1,000).

The .22 hornet is a lower velocity round. You are thinking of the .220 Swift

It’s hard keeping some of the wildcat loadings straight, and if he’s anything like me the dyslexia doesn’t help things either.

Rogue- I’m pretty confident that even my cheap beater AR will out shoot the best in the arsenal. I still can’t quite bring myself to spend $1,800 on glass.