Brexit is a Mess, how do we Fix it.

I presume then we should still have Walpole as PM and the Whigs in charge then? He might smell a bit by now.

Of course things weren't very democratic back then so maybe Lloyd George as the first PM under universal suffrage? Of course liberal conservative coalitions aren't very popular any more...

I am happy with how I voted and would vote same way again. The immature view point seems to be that democracy means never voting on the same thing twice.

originally posted by: biggilo

I know a heck of a lot more about Irish politics then you, so 69% of Northern Irish are 'red neck billy boy klan members', that sounds awfully like something that well known intellect George Galloway once said... but perhaps someone could explain to me since when sectarian bigotry like what you just droned off was acceptable on ATS? racism ok too?

Seemingly racism is only black or white.

Paddy Ashdown, night before referendum results
'I will forgive no one who does not respect the sovereign voice of the British people once it has spoken whether it is a majority of one per cent or 20 per cent.

When the British people have spoken you do what they command. Either you believe in democracy or you don’t'

a reply to: ScepticScot

Even if going our becomes more and obviously the wrong decision.

But in my opinion it isn't the wrong decision.

I think you might have the cart before the horse. The time to reform our incredibly undemocratic system is before leaving one of the few institutions that acts as a check on our government.

You see, a fundamental difference - I believe that the British Parliament should be the supreme law making body in the UK and any transferal of sovereignty is an act of treason.
Bit by bit successive British Prime Ministers - with the complicit agreement of the Monarch - have transferred sovereignty to the EU.

EU law and dictates take increasing precedence over Westminster - that's not a check, the EU supersedes our nationally elected assembly. They have more and more powers over us and have openly stated that a long term goal is the abolition of nationally elected assemblies - including Holyrood - and the EU will be the sole and supreme authority.

The British people do not want political union with the EU - it really is as simple as that.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

Even if going our becomes more and obviously the wrong decision.

That is a matter of opinion ....... and it appears the majority of opinion is the

opposite of yours!!

I think you might have the cart before the horse. The time to reform our incredibly undemocratic system is before leaving one of the few institutions that acts as a check on our government.

"Acts as a check on our government"
Too busy tying 27 countries into a mold and bullying them into submission.

a reply to: ScepticScot

The immature view point.....

Why is it immature?
Because you don't agree with it - pot / kettle springs to mind!

Come on, I know you are far better than that!

..... seems to be that democracy means never voting on the same thing twice.

Yes, when its a straight forward yes / no referendum and the outcome hasn't been acted upon.
I fail to see the moral obligation for a second referendum when the result of the first one hasn't been implemented.

Absolutely NOTHING has changed since the first referendum took place so what warrants a second vote?

The only thing that has changed is that the known Remainers who were inexplicably handed the responsibility of handling negotiations to implement the result of the democratic referendum have deliberately stalled those negotiations in order to spread panic amongst the electorate - seems to be working.

For pity's sake - I really can't understand all the fear and scaremongering.

We've faced bigger challenges and always proved successful.

I really could say more but I have no intention of possibly insulting some people who I have a lot of respect for.

My final thoughts; let's stop bloody moaning and move forward instead of maintaining the status quo that has held the great British people back for far too long!

originally posted by: biggilo
Paddy Ashdown, night before referendum results
'I will forgive no one who does not respect the sovereign voice of the British people once it has spoken whether it is a majority of one per cent or 20 per cent.

When the British people have spoken you do what they command. Either you believe in democracy or you don’t'

And Nigel Farage said "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

Changed days or what....

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: ScepticScot

Even if going our becomes more and obviously the wrong decision.

That is a matter of opinion ....... and it appears the majority of opinion is the

opposite of yours!!

I think you might have the cart before the horse. The time to reform our incredibly undemocratic system is before leaving one of the few institutions that acts as a check on our government.

"Acts as a check on our government"

Too busy tying 27 countries into a mold and bullying them into submission.

If it's the majority opion then there should be no problem with a second referendum.

originally posted by: ScepticScotHow has the EU tried to stop the leaving?

The delays in negotiations and the time frame have been set by the UK government.

Exactly The EU has its enormous single market to protect, something far more important than some peripheral tit bit that never really joined the EU political game in the first place. We have to see it from their perspective.

a reply to: ScepticScot


You know? I just cannot square how on one hand, you are all for Scottish independence yet on the other, you want your laws made by unelected commissioners who meet in secret in Brussels or Strasburg.
It's baffling, honestly.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Well the UK has "referendums not Neverendums".

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

The immature view point.....

Why is it immature?
Because you don't agree with it - pot / kettle springs to mind!

Come on, I know you are far better than that!

..... seems to be that democracy means never voting on the same thing twice.

Yes, when its a straight forward yes / no referendum and the outcome hasn't been acted upon.
I fail to see the moral obligation for a second referendum when the result of the first one hasn't been implemented.

Absolutely NOTHING has changed since the first referendum took place so what warrants a second vote?

The only thing that has changed is that the known Remainers who were inexplicably handed the responsibility of handling negotiations to implement the result of the democratic referendum have deliberately stalled those negotiations in order to spread panic amongst the electorate - seems to be working.

For pity's sake - I really can't understand all the fear and scaremongering.

We've faced bigger challenges and always proved successful.

I really could say more but I have no intention of possibly insulting some people who I have a lot of respect for.

My final thoughts; let's stop bloody moaning and move forward instead of maintaining the status quo that has held the great British people back for far too long!

A huge amount has changed since referendum not least the government which has shown itself to be dangerously incompetent and divided.

It's becoming ever clearer that leaving the EU us going to be to the detriment of the UK and it's people.

It isn't a case of UK is going to sink into the sea or be towed off to a land of milk and honey. Extreme view points in both sides are misinformed. However the evidence us we are going to be considerably worse off as a result of leaving, particularly in the case of a no deal exit.

Status Quo holding us back is our own system of government. Leaving the EU gives more power to and less checks against Westminster.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Exactly
The EU has its enormous single market to protect,.....

Yes, the EU seeks to protect its interests by ignoring democratic process and the right to self-determination.

But its all about the money!

.... something far more important than some peripheral tit bit that never really joined the EU political game in the first place.

The UK is a damn sight more than a 'peripheral tit bit', it is a cash cow to the EU....in 2016 the UK made a net contribution of £8.6billion to the EU.

Its about the money and trying deter other countries from leaving.

We have to see it from their perspective.

Why?
The priority is to see it from OUR perspective....nothing else really matters.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: ScepticScot


You know? I just cannot square how on one hand, you are all for Scottish independence yet on the other, you want your laws made by unelected commissioners who meet in secret in Brussels or Strasburg.
It's baffling, honestly.

I know imagine wanting to be run by the EU with it's antiquated non proportional system, an unelected second chamber, a hereditary head of state and no real constitution.

Hold on might have got mixed up there...

a reply to: SprocketUK

I've made that point to them time and time again.

Scotland will have far less influence in the EU than it does in the UK.
And when the EU get's rid of national assemblies they'll be a complete irrelevance to them.

originally posted by: biggilo
a reply to: ScepticScot

Well the UK has "referendums not Neverendums".

Can you point me to the rules for referendums in the UK constitution?

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: SprocketUK

I've made that point to them time and time again.

Scotland will have far less influence in the EU than it does in the UK.
And when the EU get's rid of national assemblies they'll be a complete irrelevance to them.

And your accusing remain scaremongering!!!

originally posted by: FreebornBut its all about the money!

You can't do anything without money in this world it really does matter. Better in the club than out and in relation to the massive EU single market we are a tit bit. Nothing will get in the way of the EU protecting that market.

a reply to: ScepticScot

A huge amount has changed since referendum not least the government which has shown itself to be dangerously incompetent and divided.

This is basically the crux of why I think a second referendum is justifiable.

I think the biggest problem with vote remain, and there were a lot of problems, was just how bad they were at communicating the impact of leaving the EU would actually have. I don't think the British public went into that referendum with enough knowledge of the consequences of leaving the EU would be. Now those consequences are quite clear, that is why I think a second referendum is justifiable.

I don't by this stuff about it being non-democratic, its happened before, there is talk heating up of a second referendum of Scottish independence and other European nations have had several referendums of a verity of issues over the years sometimes they have had to go back to their electorate.

a reply to: ScepticScot

A huge amount has changed since referendum not least the government which has shown itself to be dangerously incompetent and divided.

What?
You didn't know that before the referendum?

It's becoming ever clearer that leaving the EU us going to be to the detriment of the UK and it's people.

That's an opinion, and one that I don't agree with.

You believed that before the referendum....so nothings changed.

... Leaving the EU gives more power to and less checks against Westminster.

So you believe that stripping power from democratically elected national assemblies and giving them to unelected Commissioners in Brussels and Strasbourg is in the UK's best interests?