Brexit is a Mess, how do we Fix it.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Fellow Brit here and a leave voter.


Firstly I will agree that our current government has royally screwed Brexit up. I wanted a real Brexit and yes I knew what that meant as did most people who took five minutes to have a quick scan of any newspaper, internet page or watch five minutes of any one news channel, they fluffed up some things on both sides with the leave campaigns talking about the golden road and the remain talking about how we'd fall off a cliff the second the results came in and haven't let up with the fearmongering since.

As to the multiple referendums, you know they were forced right? Well not actually forced but basically the results came in and the EU pretty much said Nope vote again and they did and both times (from what I've read and remember) came in favour of what the EU wanted by the skin of their teeth so they weren't democratic votes they were forced second votes (again not at gun point but I'm sure you understand).

I do fear we're getting a second vote but why I fear it has nothing to do with what I think the real result will be. See if you have a second vote and the results lets say go in favour of the remain do we leavers have the right to demand a third? or if leave wins again you know the remainers will come up with a new reason as to a third vote and it will never stop. Let us leavers have our slice of democracy. Remainers need to understand that any second vote will send a signal to Leavers that at the end of the day our vote, our voice means nothing. Also, if we have a second vote how d'you think the EU will see it if we do and remain wins? Do you think they will celebrate and welcome us with open arms or will they see as weak and fearful not able to go through with our own votes? We would be under their foot. We would be seen as far weaker.

The only way to fix Breixt is for the EU to actually be open to real trade, to real treaties and real laws that benefit BOTH sides. They have said one thing in the public but then behind closed doors and or in interviews (after the fact) that they will not accept this proposal or this offer from us, hell we've come up with ideas for the Irish border and yet they have batted all of them down and the only thing they've come up with (that wasn't claiming one of ours - tech border) is that the EU basically gets to annex Northern Ireland (it would be under their control) could you imagine that?

Here is my ideal reaction to the apparent NO to the recent meeting (reports came out today) it is this: Sit the EU down and say "Look we've given you options. We've given you a white paper with what we want and what we believe is a fair balance between what was voted for and what would be in both our interests. We are open to real and proper negotiations where both sides give things up but if that isn't on the cards then we are prepared to walk. BUT remember tariffs work both ways" I would then get up and walk out of the room and go back to the UK and leave them dealing with their local businesses who are already going after their leaders about potential trading falls and financial drops.

Also, one last thing (I could put up more) - We need to have a Brexiteer in number 10. We need someone who can see that Brexit is an actual option. She doesn't. She is a remainer and so we need someone who is not. I don't know who but we do. I hear there is this guy in the States called Trump who is having a little trouble, if he wants to take a break I'm happy for him to come over and lend a hand leading the charge because at this point no one can screw it up as much as May is. If she fails this deal she will kiss her career bye bye.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

No, friend we didn't course this. We want our country back. We want control over our country, our laws, our trade. We want to be able to vote people in and see them actually do something without having to ask the EU if they can. Without worrying if one of our next laws go against some EU fascist law. I'm tired of remainers and their ilk pretending that they were honest and completely fair about their predictions because they were just as bad as some of the Leavers, they made it out that the world would end and they pretended that if this happened we would see the UK turn into a third world country in the West and it was bull. Brexit hasn't even happened yet and the reason it's been so difficult is we are dealing with a block of countries, well lets be honest it's basically the EU figureheads refusing to budge on anything at all unless it's what they want because we used a democratic vote to take back power to remove their fingers from our jars and that, my friend, they do not like. They will fight tooth and nail to stop this from happening and if it goes through well that should read WHEN it goes through they will make sure they give us a bad deal so that any other country will not want to the do same.

The EU isn't a free and fair place. Smaller countries are treated like weak children in a school playground being tossed about by the bully. The EU is slowly going to change, transform into something much much different than what it set out to be and you mark my words that it will become a United States of Europe, with a single army, a President of its own and all other countries barring maybe Germany and France will have to follow that President and have that army protect them. This is almost like a play book out of a certain A.H from Germany, we fought to stop this and god willing we will walk away.

a reply to: andy06shake

Wrong. There are many people that still want Brexit the only difference now is that from the polls and information from the news people just want it over with. A growing number of people are just saying either make a deal or walk but do it now. The only reason more voices for anti-Brexit is being seen and heard is because it is being spread on the news now due to a mandate from new editors of some news papers and government backing companies (cough cough BBC) who are anti-Brexit. If you think more people want to remain after seeing how the EU is treating us, one of their biggest contributors to the block, then you are mistaken.

Ok, I am very curious as to the what and why BREXIT was initiated. I know there are several threads here on ATS, and I can use the search function. If I do that I'll get every garbage thread that contains the word brexit, and some more that have nothing to do with it.

Can anyone point me in the direction of a thread that explains brexit, the whats, who's, why's, when's, where's, and even the how's.

a reply to: Vector99

Basically it comes down to David Cameron. Not many will admit it but it does. See people in our country have only grown in our hatred toward the EU and like an endless series of knife cuts, every new law they (the EU) created people only grew to hate it so the calls were growing and then during David Camerons time Nigel Farage began to become popular, he was looked as one of the more down to Earth politicians and the polls were starting to move in his favour and away from Cameron and his government and the main reason was that Farage promised to do a referendum on the EU and our membership so David decided he would make the same offer with the line "You know that voting for me you will get that referendum on the EU" and he continued to do it and then when they won, he continued with the promise but tried to kick it down the road until finally had no choice.

They didn't do proper debates apparently, they being Cameron and his government and their ilk just went with fearmongering instead of talking up both sides of in or out while Farage and other leave voters talked up our future, some say that both sides were telling untruths and that's about it. That's HOW we got the vote. People might not remember it that way but honest that's how we got it but like I said, we the people have been growing into an euroskeptic country for decades.

a reply to: Dwoodward85

Tories want Brexit.

And even then quite a few there can see it for the chocolate teapot it will inevitably turn out to be.

The way the EU is treating us is simply setting an example really.

Brexit will sink this nation into even greater socioeconomic stagnation for the next two decades, and that's being optimistic at best.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

It doesn't matter what you want, it only matters what government wants.

Haven't you been keeping up with US politics?

a reply to: andy06shake

No some SOME (that's an important word) some Tories want Brexit not all.

Disagree. I'm tired of this excuse. We are one of the wealthiest country in the world. We have a huge tourist industry, the Royal family brings in hundreds of millions. Trade will continue, people maybe yourself included (respectfully) need to get out of the mindset that the EU is the hot pot of global trade when it isn't. China, India, Australia, Middle east, smaller nations are all open and willing to make trade deals, American is open to trade deals and even free trade deals in some speeches (have to say some lol). I'm not saying Brexit is going to go swimmingly, I do think there will be bumps in the road in the short term but in the long, when we can make all these trade deals, when we can set up all these laws, change our laws to suit OUR need rather than what the EU thinks we need, get control of our waters and have our great fishing industry (one of the best for certain fish) back under our control we will find that that bumpy road will lead to a better future than most see.

I do agree on one thing that most Remainers say, we should have an open mind when it comes to the EU BUT and here is my caveat, we should not be so open minded that our brains fall out. The EU has only one goal in the negotiations and that's what is best for the EU not both sides. But I do think a deal will be made because they fear May will be booted and a Brexiteer will get in and they DO NO WANT THAT.

What's more important, money or freedom?

Has Great Britain become so weak that it can't survive without deals with a foreign trade bloc that wants to dictate the laws that Britain should follow? What happened to the country that sacrificed so much to retain its sovereignty almost 80 years ago? Were those sacrifices meaningless?

This could be Britain's finest hour. Britain doesn't owe the EU a thing. Walk away. If that doesn't sit well with the EU or some European nations, then so be it. Spain, France, Germany, etc., at one time or another Britain has been an enemy and an ally, and Britain still stands. Britain survived the Spanish Armada, Napoleon, and Hitler. Are you really going to raise the white flag to a trade bloc?

originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

The E.U. sell £288 billion of goods to the U.K.

Are you seriously saying the The E.U. are prepared just to ditch that ?

from the way the EU are acting yes I do believe they are willing to ditch us as s market. German exporters work very closely with their government and they did the same with the Russian market when agreeing to sanctions. Very similar sized market. We have to get this perfectly understood when dealing with the Germans, the single market means everything to them and will always come first.

Isn't it odd that its the Irish border being used as a sticking point?

The very country that was made to have a second vote for the EU to

achieve the result they (the EU) wanted!!

originally posted by: eletheia


Isn't it odd that its the Irish border being used as a sticking point?

The very country that was made to have a second vote for the EU to

achieve the result they (the EU) wanted!!

Varadkar is the useful idiot for the EU. He is leading a minority government that is under pressure from IRA/Sinn Fein and so for him to be seen to be 'sticking it to the Britsh' helps play to his voters who are swayed to IRA/Sinn Fein.
It should tell us all we need to know about the EU that they will risk peace in Northern Ireland to try and punish the British. Varadkar also has a very short memory, it was the UK who bailed out Ireland in the financial crisis and we told them to pay it back when they could and now he is trying to punish us for his own political gain.
Our treasonous media need to stop peddling the view of others and start looking at it from our perspective , Ireland chose to break up the Britsh Isles, Ireland chose to join the EU; the border isn't our problem it is Varadkars Ireland.

originally posted by: eletheia


Isn't it odd that its the Irish border being used as a sticking point?

The very country that was made to have a second vote for the EU to

achieve the result they (the EU) wanted!!

Actually its kind of on the other side that its more of a problem the issue is more with Northern Ireland that it is with RoI.

The biggest fear (for UK.gov at least) is that this could eventually lead the way for Irish unification.

a reply to: andy06shake

The way the EU is treating us is simply setting an example really.

Agreed 100%, rightly or wrongly the EU's agenda is to send a message to other euro-skeptics "look what happens to a country when they leave our union".

I think you'll find if there has to be a hard border it'll be a British border on Irish soil. The IRB/IRA had every right to pop the evil empires bubble and kick the bastards out by force. My guess is you know nothing about Irish politics or the about formation of Northern Ireland.

Ireland will be United again once this plays out.

The only ones who wish to remain part of the UK in the north are the redneck Billy boys aka The Klan. The moderates only want what's best for their children these days. The Days of Britannia's divisive politics in Ireland are well and truly over.

If You want your independence so much why does your country feel the need to have a stranglehold on Scotland, Wales, and NI? Not allowing someone to leave the household because you can't afford to go it alone?. Yeah, True independence eh?

You see, Britain has never been an independent country, It's always relied on the blood and sweat of foreign slaves around the world to keep it afloat.

I wish the English would have a referendum on going it alone. as in, England, on its own, making its own way in the world, without the need to use it's colonial slaves as it's iron fist. Then again, The thought of true independence scares the #e out of Westminster. They know they would just be a small fish in a large pond and the thought of it terrifies them.

Well, thanks to the tories, The people of the UK are about to find out just how terrifying. Even yer man Reece Mogg says everything will get back to normal...In about 50 Years.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

No way will the MP's ever let the English have a referendum on going it alone.

I like the idea to an extent

You also need to be careful in separating the rulers from the people when it comes to Northern Ireland and Scotland/Wales. I don't know a single person who opposed the Scots having an indy ref (not in the real world, anyway). Lots of politicians don't want Scottish independence though, they are scared of another gravy train leaving without them.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Voted remain (and would again) but completely disagree with you on this topic. It is simple Democracy and we as a nation either accept that or we try a different political system.

What makes me laugh (and cry in equal measure) is how people are surprised by how negotiations are going. What did people really expect to happen? Did they really think that the EU would go against its own interests and simply let us cherry pick what we want for a good deal? If so it demonstrates why the public should never have had a referendum on this in the first place - most people these days are too dumb to understand the consequences (for all sides). I know i will get flamed saying that but it is true and as evidence all you need is the majority of all interviews (tv and media) and internet chats from the general public about what it entails. Essentially, if you don't understand something there is no way on Earth that you should be allowed to make a decision on it.

a reply to: andy06shake

i agree. i say let it hit rock bottom.

You know what grinds my gears, Democratic vote? Murdoch has backed the winner of every "Democratic vote" for thirty years. Democracy is dead, The media decides who wins an election, just as the media, especially Murdoch's media, pushed for Brexit.

Wake up. There is no such thing as Democracy ffs.


This is what Democracy in the UK looks like.

The trouble with Rock Bottom is, Millions of families are already there. Your next step is checking out.