It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

How Did the Universe Begin? The Math

page: 1
2
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 22 2005 @ 11:54 PM
link   
I ahve mentioned math many times to my belief in God and the Bible code has also been mentioned but many dissmiss it outright because it has the word Bible in it....so I though I would share this....


How Did the Universe Begin?

There are only three possible answers to this question.

1. It was created by something larger than itself since the first law of thermodynamics says that energy cannot be created, only changed.


The universe had to be created by something outside itself, because of the same law. We also know that man could not have created it.


2. It was begun by chance (or accident); or

3. The answer is not sure.





Let us now examine the number of times that ten consecutively numbered cards can come up in a random fashion (meaning by chance), one being drawn out of the ten at a time. There are 3,628,000 different ways that those cards can be drawn out; In other words, 4,7,5,9,1,8,3,2,10, and 6 would be one such example. The chances of this sequence coming out of such a single random drawing would be one in 3,628,000.

If we increase the number of cards to 100, there would be 10^158 ways that the numbered cards could come out in any random drawing.




Let me explain what the number, 10^158, represents for those not familiar with such things. The result of multiplication of 10 times 10 is 100. When written as a square, it is written as 10^2. When written as a number, it is a 1 followed by the number of zeroes shown after the number, in this case, one followed by two zeroes, or 100.

10 times 10 times 10 is 1,000, written as 10^3, or 1 followed by three zeroes (1,000).

10(158) would be the number 1 followed by 158 zeroes or:



100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000


What are the chances of any particular sequence of, say all odd numbers occurring, in increasing numbers, and then all even numbers, in decreasing numbers, coming out of a randomly drawn series of just 100 numbers? The answer to that question can be determined by the laws of mathematics. The answer is, once again, one chance in one followed by 158 zeroes.

The age of the universe has been estimated by some scientists at 30 billion (30,000,000,000) years. There would be 10^18 seconds in those 30 billion years (1 followed by 18 zeroes, or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 seconds). Notice how much smaller that figure is compared to 10^158.


Astrophysicists estimate that there are no more than 10^80 infinitesimal particles in the universe. Assuming that each particle could participate in a thousand billion 10^12 different events every second (an impossibly high figure, by the way), then the greatest number of events that could ever happen (or trials that could be made) in all of the universe throughout its entire history is only 10^110. Most mathematicians believe that this figure is much lower, about 10^50.

Any event with a probability of less than one chance in 10^110, therefore, cannot occur by chance. Its probability becomes zero, at least in our known universe. Thus, the sequence of the ascending and then descending numbers of 100 components has a ZERO probability of happening by chance.

Some scientists have measured the chance of a replicating (defined as a repetition of an experiment under controlled conditions so that a specific result may be observed) molecule occurring by chance at 10^450.

Frank Salisbury has calculated the probability of a typical DNA chain arising by chance to be 10^600. (DNA is the basic building block of life, and it has a zero probability of occurring by chance).


Mike Stubbs has calculated the chance of insulin, an important protein hormone secreted by the pancreas, developing by chance at 3x10^158. He states that even if there was a machine which could sort the amino acids that make up insulin into groups of 512 at a rate of one billion per second, it would take 10^52 years to produce 10^68 combinations, only one of which would be insulin. In other words, you could expect to get the insulin combination only once in 10^52 years. Yet there are only 10^18 seconds in a 30 billion year universe!

Other scientists have made some calculations of the probability of life originating by chance. Sir Fred Hoyle, one of the leading scientists of this age, has computed the number of chances necessary for even the simplest life imaginable to have evolved by chance to be one chance in 10^40,000. (That is roughly comparable to the probability of rolling double sixes, 12 on two dice, 50,000 times in a row!)

Dr. Harold Morowitz, professor of Molecular Chemistry at Yale University, has concluded that the odds of life creating itself by chance are one in 10 followed by one billion zeroes! Yet any chance with less than one chance in 10 followed by 110 zeroes has NO CHANCE!

Lastly, Edward Conklin, a biologist, has stated that, "The probability of life originating from accident (or chance) is comparable to the probability of an unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in a print shop." In other words, the universe originating by chance has NO CHANCE!

If the universe did not originate by chance, what then are the other alternatives? Either the universe was started by something or someone capable of creating a universe (a master designer) or no one is sure how it got started.



And last but not least, as I have said, the math gets real big real fast and even our founding fathers knew and that is why this nation has been so blessed in its 200+ years, but that is changing as we become more secular and the pope out it well....

How can a nation that believes in a Creator allow 'Legal Extermination'?


America's founding fathers said that the fact that man had human rights was a "self-evident truth." They recognized that certain things were self-evident. That meant that they were not debatable. They were true simply because they were true. They wrote the following into America's Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men were created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights.."

A "self-evident truth" is not debatable. There are no other options. It is true simply because it is true. That is the way it is. The fact that the universe was created by a Master Designer is a "self-evident truth." The human mind is compelled to conclude that there is a creator, a first cause. That thought is a "self-evident truth." Unless you think like an atheist!


There are only three possible answers to this question


[edit on 23-2-2005 by edsinger]




posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 01:41 AM
link   



There are only three possible answers to this question.

1. It was created by something larger than itself since the first law of thermodynamics says that energy cannot be created, only changed.
Funny, how you use a law as an example and then in the same breathe exclude your God from these laws. The simple answer here is energy has always existed. It's clearly the most simple answer. A blanket concept like "God" only complicates this more. Just face it, there is no evidence that a intelligence of any kind created the universe.



The universe had to be created by something outside itself, because of the same law. We also know that man could not have created it.
If your magical God doesnt apply to the same laws you stated two seconds ago, then dont bring these laws into your argument. Because, at this point, nothing your stating is scientific. It's pseudo-science/philosphy.



If the universe did not originate by chance, what then are the other alternatives? Either the universe was started by something or someone capable of creating a universe (a master designer) or no one is sure how it got started.
Or, the universe always existed. Simpler than chance, or an ill-defined designer.




And last but not least, as I have said, the math gets real big real fast and even our founding fathers knew and that is why this nation has been so blessed in its 200+ years, but that is changing as we become more secular and the pope out it well....
Blessed? What are you talking about? Weve always had war, diease, death, poverty, natural diasters and suffering. Could you show us how we arent "blessed" now, and how we were somehow "blessed" back then?


How can a nation that believes in a Creator allow 'Legal Extermination'?
Can you please clarify? Are you talking about the death penalty, or abortion? Or both? If you're talking about the death penalty, then people have rights, but when they violate others rights, they in turn, lose theirs. If you're talking about abortion, then its a non issue, because a fetus isnt a human, and it has no rights.



America's founding fathers said that the fact that man had human rights was a "self-evident truth." They recognized that certain things were self-evident. That meant that they were not debatable. They were true simply because they were true. They wrote the following into America's Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men were created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights.."

A "self-evident truth" is not debatable. There are no other options. It is true simply because it is true. That is the way it is. The fact that the universe was created by a Master Designer is a "self-evident truth." The human mind is compelled to conclude that there is a creator, a first cause. That thought is a "self-evident truth." Unless you think like an atheist!
At a far glance, it seems correct, right? Well, that isnt the case. Which has been shown time and time again by science. Things that seem logical, are shown to be false under science. Philosophically, your little rant seems pretty good. Scientifically, things have to be proven true, because logic doesnt always apply to science.



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 07:48 PM
link   

Originally posted by Alec EiffelIf your magical God doesnt apply to the same laws you stated two seconds ago, then dont bring these laws into your argument. Because, at this point, nothing your stating is scientific. It's pseudo-science/philosphy.


So these laws just appeared? You fail to even acknowledge that the math of 'chance' is all but unrealistic at best. Yet I think I understand why you and many others feel this way

2 Th 2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
2 Th 2:6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
2 Th 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
2 Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
2 Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
2 Th 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2 Th 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
2 Th 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.




[edit on 23-2-2005 by edsinger]



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 08:09 PM
link   
The chance of the Universe just appearing? 1 in 1, its here aint it? What amazes me is that you find no problem beliving that a All powerful all knowing being can come from nothing but its impossible for a rock or a one-celled creature.

I like your Bible quote that says God will decive us and then punish us for being decived, though. Would you trick your Children into doing something wrong and then Burn them for eternity for beliving your lie?



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 08:22 PM
link   

Originally posted by Amuk
The chance of the Universe just appearing? 1 in 1, its here aint it? What amazes me is that you find no problem beliving that a All powerful all knowing being can come from nothing but its impossible for a rock or a one-celled creature.

I like your Bible quote that says God will decive us and then punish us for being decived, though. Would you trick your Children into doing something wrong and then Burn them for eternity for beliving your lie?


Not trick, but cause strong delusion ..............Why should he force those who choose not to believe?

Just appearing is 1 in 1? Uh no, not at all......like I said, the statistical analysis states that it is impossible....come on man 10^158th power and that is the best you can say?



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 08:25 PM
link   
edsinger, by editing and changing small points of your post, I could use the same thing for your God - I can ask, "who created God?", then you could say, "God just is", then I could counter that by using your same post, but for God - he/she/it could not just happen by chance


Energy and matter can not be destroyed or created. Everything in the Universe is made from these, but it has no conscience, other than the what has been, is and will be - the Universe!

The bible is an historic book full of historic facts, stories and mythology, believe it at your own will, but don't deny the facts we know to be true and that have served us so well since mankinds beginning.



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 08:29 PM
link   
E = mc^2 energy = mass * the constant of light squared .

(excuse my physics, I have not graguated yet)

there might have been nothing physical, as in matter, but there was energy. If mass can be converted into energy, then energy can be converted into mass(conservation of Energy). So before the big bang, I believe everything was pure energy.



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 08:29 PM
link   
We are having the same debate here Ed

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Why do it over two threads?



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 08:32 PM
link   
Nice cut and paste job. For a minute there i thought you made your own formula.



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 08:35 PM
link   
What are the odds of drawing a royal flush?

I have seen it done several times.

What were the odds on the uncountable trillions of sperm creating EXACTLY the 6 billion people they have and no others?

The numbers mean nothing



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 08:46 PM
link   
I got this nice creation story by 16th century miller his name was Menochio, he was regarded by the church as a heretic, and was burned at the stake for his notion concerning creation.


"All was chaos.....and out of that bulk a mass formed-just as cheese is made out of milk-and worms appeared in it, and these were the angels.....and among that number of angels, there was also God, he too having been created out of that mass at the same time."



[edit on 23-2-2005 by marg6043]



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 08:46 PM
link   
sorry double post


[edit on 23-2-2005 by marg6043]



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 08:52 PM
link   
I was just thinking, the odds could be true. How do we know how many times the Universe has almost come in to existent in the past, but failed for one reason or another until it finally succeeded. There could have been billions of attempts before the Universe began. Also, without time, there is no cause and effect - the Universe could be the cause of its own effect - get your head around that one


BTW, I am only educated to GCSE standard in physics, so my knowledge is certainly very limited to some of the other guys here who are studying or have studied the subject in more detail.



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 08:56 PM
link   
Almost forgot. Marge, are you saying God was created the same way as the Universe? If so, they wouldn't it mean he/she/it is bond by the same rules as it. Maybe God is the Universe, but certainly not the one described in any religious text, as it has no conscience but what already has, is and will exist in it.

My thoughts anyway!



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 02:14 AM
link   
I think God is timeless as the deity exists outside the physical universe.

Ok let’s see if I can set your hair on fire for god. I am posting in this thread due to the topic only.

Kurt Vonnegut wrote that if you took a little bit of the universal will to become and mixed it with some bubble gum your head would become the size of the universe. Yes he’s fun to read, I try to make it fun too.

Math can be boring. I use math to help conceptualize not to prove.

If you have zero you have 1 zero.

If you have a 1 you can divide that infinitely like so 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5.

Or add it infinitely 1, 2, 3 etc.

So from nothing, infinity. (Here’s the secret, its still nothing.)

That’s the concept.

There is another key to my personal understanding of how it might have been, and that is the notion of the physical and the meta-physical universe.

The physical universe is all that surrounds us and is composed of atoms and pieces of atoms and light and vibrations and energy. All these things have physical properties and are the subject of scientific scrutiny. In Christian terms they may be referred to as “the creation.”

The underlying reality is metaphysical and science only touches on its bounds when looking at quantum mechanics or the science of high speed particles (math to us dummies), Einstein’s unified field theory. The rest of the time the study and knowledge of the nature of the metaphysical universe is the domain of spiritual inquiry.

The entire physical universe is phenomenal and the metaphysical causal.
If a scientist wants to know the nature of the explosion he studies the effects of the blast. If you wish to know the nature of god, look at his works. When I read Shakespeare I know that he had wit and a sense of humor because his work has these qualities. A particle accelerator smashes atoms together and they measure the effects to discern the nature of the atom. It’s a simple principle.

A metaphysical quality the universe has is beauty. A rose has beauty but it is not a physical quality it is a metaphysical quality.

I think of the creation of the universe as being an event where the metaphysical universe (God) looked in upon itself and created the supreme illusion that the physical universe exits at all and that if the truth be known the more abstract you get, the more concrete.

I love Moby Dick and I wrote this piece the other day just thinking about this subject. The piece below was written for my own pleasure but contains concepts that I have outlined above and may prove helpful in understanding them.

“Hark ye yet again, -- the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event-- in the living act, the undoubted deed-- there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is the wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there’s naught beyond. But ‘tis enough. He tasks me; he heaps me; I see in him outrageous strength, with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate; and be the white whale agent, or be the white whale principal, I will wreak that hate upon him.”
--Ahab, from Chapter 36, The Quarter-Deck

The, “little lower layer” of which Ahab speaks is recognition of a reality in which the sublime under laying metaphysical universe is observed, but belittled, a supreme irony.

The next line, “All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks”, again recognizes the metaphysical universe’s primacy over the physical universe. That all matter is comprised of atoms that are themselves comprised of smaller and smaller particles, I submit stands as ready proof that there is no such thing as matter at all but rather a collection of vibrations (energy). That there is phsysicality at all is an intentional illusion stands here as a pasteboard mask, the face of which dilenates the character of the actor.

The perception of time as a linear dimension is likewise illusory as mathematically proven by Einstein’s great theory. While neither of these truths were in evidence in Melville’s time they were true nonetheless and stand as stark evidence of his tremendous insight. Melville speaks truth to us from man’s whaling past as accurately as any modern day scientist might divine the secrets of the universe from his lab at the university.

The next line,” But in each event-- in the living act, the undoubted deed-- there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask”, finds Ahab simply practicing what every good scientist does; judging the nature of the source of any phenomena by the marks left by the phenomenon itself. That divinity shows its face in the cosmic design by dint of creations glory and cannot hide so far away that a reasoning mind cannot declare its existence to be glaringly apparent is held to be self evident in an observable reality defined not as glory but as pasteboard. Such a statement, while evincing disdain for the creator, goes on to insult divinity by suggesting that the very nature of the creator is one of artifice and deception. Proving that Ahab’s blasphemy knows not it’s bounds and it’s offspring; obscenity, reserve.

Yes its dark stuff but I do so enjoy it. So in short there is no physical universe, it is an intentional artifice of a deeper metaphysical reality. See Unified Field Theory but don't ask me about super fluid vaccum states because I really don't know.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 01:41 PM
link   

Originally posted by Alexodin

Yes its dark stuff but I do so enjoy it. So in short there is no physical universe, it is an intentional artifice of a deeper metaphysical reality. See Unified Field Theory but don't ask me about super fluid vaccum states because I really don't know.


Ouch that was deep.............my head hurts.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 02:43 PM
link   

Originally posted by edsinger
There are only three possible answers to this question.

1. It was created by something larger than itself since the first law of thermodynamics says that energy cannot be created, only changed.

This does not follow. The big bang model would have the energy that exists now already existing then, just in a smaller 'space'. So no new energy is created. As far as what made that thing prior to the big bang, why assume any physical laws as they are currently understood apply to them?

. It was begun by chance (or accident)

How would one establish that it did not happen by 'chance'? The thermodynamic laws are no help here.
















Any event with a probability of less than one chance in 10^110, therefore, cannot occur by chance.

Thats b/s. Probabiltity of occuring is merely probability of occuring. The above is like saying, because there is a one in two chance of a coin landing on head, a coin must be flipped twice in order to get heads.


Its probability becomes zero, at least in our known universe.

Incorrect.


Thus, the sequence of the ascending and then descending numbers of 100 components has a ZERO probability of happening by chance.

Incorrect. It has hte probability that was given above, not 0, the number given above is much greater than 0.




Frank Salisbury has calculated the probability of a typical DNA chain arising by chance to be 10^600.

Frank salisbury is wasting his and everyone elses time in doing this. No one claims that an entire 'typical'dna chain occured by being assembled directly and in one step from loose atoms.




Mike Stubbs has calculated the chance of insulin, an important protein hormone secreted by the pancreas, developing by chance at 3x10^158.

This is meaningless. How about calculating the chance of every grain of sand on the beach haveing the orientation it does indeed have? It gives a wildly improbably number. And yet, there it is. How about just calculating the 'chance' of intricate and complex and large crystals existing?


Sir Fred Hoyle,

Is an evolutionist who does not beleive that life was formed via intelligent design and does beleive that it occured 'by chance'.


has computed the number of chances necessary for even the simplest life imaginable to have evolved by chance to be one chance in 10^40,000.

Hoyle too falls for the fallacy that this number in any way actually reflects the actual 'chance' of said event happening. It does not, because the claim is not that full organisms sprung up from raw atoms in one step.

The rest of these seem to be the same thing. Anyone arguing in such a manner against evolution occuring has not understood what 'natural selection' means in the first place. These calculations are mere chicanery, they are not revelant to evolution or even abiogenesis, and bizzarely you seemed to have conflated the origin of life with the evolution of life and with the origin of the universe itself.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 03:00 PM
link   

Originally posted by Amuk
What amazes me is that you find no problem beliving that a All powerful all knowing being can come from nothing but its impossible for a rock or a one-celled creature.


haha, did you not listen to anything I said in that other thread? You boggle my mind, Amuk.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 09:09 PM
link   
It amazes me that supposedly intelligent people can look at these numbers and just dismiss them on a whim...

10^80+ is one hell of a big number but yet you still think it could happen that way,


Example of this type of logic......lottery players

a game for the mathematically challenged!



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 10:04 PM
link   

Originally posted by edsinger
It amazes me that supposedly intelligent people can look at these numbers and just dismiss them on a whim...

10^80+ is one hell of a big number but yet you still think it could happen that way,
What prevents it from happening this way?



Example of this type of logic......lottery players
Guess what? Every once in awhile, someone wins the lottery! What are the odds of winning a million dollars? Pretty big odds, yet, people still win all the time. They defied all odds, and won. What dont you understand? Big numbers mean nothing, because eventually, the odds are defied.



new topics

top topics



 
2
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join