Transgender Man....gives birth to baby

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: interupt42

All I can say is that the more studies that are done, the more the evidence is pointing away from it being mental illness, not towards it.

The fact is, when it was treated as a mental illness, the symptoms of dysphoria were not relieved at all, so there was a lot of suffering. When the treatment changed to helping the person transition, the symptoms of the dysphoria were greatly relieved.
When the transgender person has the support of their family/friends, and are not discriminated against by the community, they usually go on to lead happy, normal lives once they've transitioned. Isn't that a good thing?

Why can't we give someone support and love for just being who they were born as?

Why are the only two options 'ridicule and denigrate them' vs 'support their desires to become someone else'?

a reply to: kaylaluv

LOL, well, based on what I see from humanity, God has a really random sense of style anyway.

... almost like, random chance, LOL.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: interupt42

All I can say is that the more studies that are done, the more the evidence is pointing away from it being mental illness, not towards it.

Again I appreciate the honesty . Like I said I'm not out to crucify anyone and I have no problem with anyone or their lifestyle as long as it doesn't hurt others.

My issues is when politics try to put labels or shame people into a specific line of thinking. Such as labeling people as transphobic or non tolerant if they question if transgederism should be treated as a mental disorder? Same thing happened with Global Warming all the sudden it was not alright to question the science. I had no issue with global warming my problem was that you were labeled a conspiracy theorist if you questioned the science.

The fact is that we don't know as you said.

a reply to: muzzleflash

Why can't we support that someone was born with a gender identity of female even though the rest of their physiology developed as male?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: interupt42

Strawman Argument

Continuing with the jiu jitsu word play and Deflection I see.

a reply to: interupt42

LOL ... nope.

Just stating facts, as I have been.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: interupt42

LOL ... nope.

Just stating facts, as I have been.

Nope the fact is that the science hasn't been settled and we don't know whether transgender is really a mental disorder or not, despite what ever word play you use to deflect or move the target. There are still valid questions that haven't been answered and research to be had.

a reply to: interupt42

The APA has said that gender dysphoria is not pathological. Do you need a link to that statement again?

Saying that we don't know if there is a cause and that we don't know what that cause might be is not saying that we don't know whether people with different gender identities are mentally ill.

There are still valid questions, but one of them isn't whether transgender folks should have equal rights.

That's been settled in 18 States and Federally (until the current Administration that is.)

a reply to: interupt42

Questioning and insisting are two different things.

We know that most transgender people do not exhibit typical signs of mental illness, other than the side effects of dysphoria (depression, anxiety, etc). They don't hear voices, they don't see things that aren't there, they aren't unreasonable people. We know that therapy does not get rid of the dysphoria. We know that anti-psychotic drugs don't get rid of the dysphoria. We have seen great improvements when physical transition happens. It is what has worked when nothing else has. Should we continue researching the condition? Absolutely! Insisting it's a mental illness when there is currently no evidence of that, is what I have a problem with.

Regarding science in general, we go by what we know now until we discover new information. That's the great thing about science - someone is always looking for new information, and we are always discovering new things.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: muzzleflash

Why can't we support that someone was born with a gender identity of female even though the rest of their physiology developed as male?

Because you're telling them they were born wrong and need to be changed in order to feel "right".

If someone makes all these changes I will still love them and give them good from my heart and treat them as my friend - but I can't agree with anyone, even them, that they were born inadequate.

An example - I won't criticize or insult a woman for getting a boob job - but I will also never agree that they "needed" it. It's just a cosmetic thing they did to feel less insecure.

If a woman is thinking of making that change, I'll tell her "do what you want but you're fine as you are".

No one supporting transgenders getting the treatment they want and need is telling them that they were "born wrong."

In fact, the reality is opposite to this ludicrous suggestion.

Many in society tell them that regardless of what they feel and know about themselves, they are still limited to their biological sex.

That is what makes many of these folks deeply depressed and suicidal, because the ignorant masses just think they should "get over it."

Telling another person that they are "fine as they are" in cases such as we are discussing is about as arrogant and clueless a comment as I've ever seen here. IMHO.

originally posted by: seagull
As long as the child is happy, why should any of us care?

A child would be happy eating sugar all day. Doesn't mean it's good for them.

originally posted by: Lucius Driftwood

originally posted by: seagull
As long as the child is happy, why should any of us care?

A child would be happy eating sugar all day. Doesn't mean it's good for them.

Being depressed, anxious and suicidal isn’t good for them either.

a reply to: Lucius Driftwood

If you can't tell the difference between that, and a healthy, happy child, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Such comparisons are, shall we say, rather weak.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: muzzleflash

Why can't we support that someone was born with a gender identity of female even though the rest of their physiology developed as male?

Because no one is born with an identity? Newborns must first differentiate between self and surroundings. "This is my arm, look I can move it. I can't move those curtains tho." (Obviously without that advanced inner dialogue.) It is through interacting with the outside world that the child begins to develop a sense of self. How the world responds, combined with the child's own temperament/sensitivities, create a sense of personal success or failure.

I'm a big proponent of Erik Erikson's Stages of Psychosocial Development: Link

So the question becomes, what experiences cause the child a sense of failure as the sex they were born into? Rejection of an absent parent? Bullying for atypical gender expression? Why has no one dared look into the psychosocial development of these suffering individuals?

a reply to: Gryphon66

That is what makes many of these folks deeply depressed and suicidal, because the ignorant masses just think they should "get over it."

Wow, that is a huge assumption. You presume to know the cause of depression in all transgender folk? You are quite sure that the dysphoria and depression developed in just that order? I wonder of all the depressed humans who do not experience dysphoria. Is it the world's fault them as well, or is there the oft mentioned chemical imbalance in the brain? If chemical imbalance for others, why are dysphoric people so pure of brain chemical balance over all other depressed people? In an effort to paint dysphoric people as otherwise so mentally sound, you make such gross generalizations that you actually hurt your argument. Just saying.

All the people who believe a third 'gender' exists in ANY species on Earth, being the most amazing feature discovered of only one species, 'scientific'......

No proof needed, as usual.

a reply to: new_here

Gay people used to be more depressed back then because society wouldn't accept them. People went as far to torture and kill them. That's be depressing, don't you think?

The gays were normal looking, with short hair, mainly...not a target for gay-bashing.

A male with long hair was targeted, all the time - not for being gay. Just for having long hair!

Girls were attracted to guys with long hair, more often than short hair guys, which was their underlying, unspoken motive, to bash all of the long-hair dudes!


Not the same as a gay-bashing, but it was the very same result.


Just putting a different take on it....that's all.

So did witches in Salem. Whats your point.


a reply to: RowanBean