Transgender Man....gives birth to baby

a reply to: interupt42

LOL ... stating well-known facts are word games? Nope. I'm just correcting your logic.

All of science is based on what we know to a given point, based on studies, experiments, observations, etc. For you to try to make hay out of one word that makes perfect sense in context is ... paltry.

You still conflate sex and gender. Do you understand the difference?

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Gryphon66

So do you believe that it was a real man with man parts that had that baby?

I look forward to you dodging the question or telling me how complex its to answer

I believe that his gender identity is male and his anatomy, outside of treatment, reverts to biological sex. When he resumes hormonal treatment, his body will start to move closer to his gender identity.

That's what we call facts.

a reply to: Gryphon66

All of science is based on what we know to a given point, based on studies, experiments, observations, etc.

Talking about science

Can a male human get pregnant?

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Gryphon66

All of science is based on what we know to a given point, based on studies, experiments, observations, etc.

Talking about science

Can a male human get pregnant?

Has anyone claimed that a human male has gotten pregnant? If you're loosely referring to the topic of the thread, a trans man had a baby. Male is his gender identity.

Is this really difficult? Gender identity and biological sex are not the same thing.

Can you say whether or not you understand that? Because this discussion with you seems to be going nowhere.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Gryphon66

So do you believe that it was a real man with man parts that had that baby?

I look forward to you dodging the question or telling me how complex its to answer

I believe that his gender identity is male and his anatomy, outside of treatment, reverts to biological sex. When he resumes hormonal treatment, his body will start to move closer to his gender identity.

That's what we call facts.

Well atleast you didn't completely dodge it, so props for that but man that was one hell of a BS politician answer, lol

So you agree He identified as a male, but in reality and physically she is a STILL a female.

no hormonal treatment will change her chromosomes or female internal anatomy and other things.

a reply to: interupt42

No, I didn't say anything like what you're saying, and I'm beginning to see that you're not dealing honestly.

The subject of the thread's gender identity is male.

You're still talking about sex and anatomy. That's not gender identity.

Also, note: unless you come up with an argument that addresses the facts ... I'll be ignoring your post.

Best.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Well detecting the neurological disorder whilst the child is still in the womb would seem to circumvent having to ask the child anything. Possibly this could be achieved via an MRI scan.

That's if it is a neurological disorder as opposed to psychological.

If there is a problem then nipping it in the bud before birth would seem to be the most prudent course of action, if possible, thus alleviate a lot of pain distress and misunderstanding later in life.

That's if there is a problem.

originally posted by: interupt42

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Gryphon66

So do you believe that it was a real man with man parts that had that baby?

I look forward to you dodging the question or telling me how complex its to answer

I believe that his gender identity is male and his anatomy, outside of treatment, reverts to biological sex. When he resumes hormonal treatment, his body will start to move closer to his gender identity.

That's what we call facts.

no hormonal treatment will change her chromosomes or female internal anatomy and other things.

No one is disputing that. We know there is consciousness and self awareness that comes from the brain, correct? Science is beginning to tell us how gender identity is connected somehow to this self awareness. The gender identity will be female or male (or possibly some combination). Using a cat analogy is poor form, as cat is not a possible human identity like male/female is.

Our awareness of self including our identity of what gender we are is a very important part of us as humans. Most of the time, the brain develops exactly in tandem with the other physical parts of the body, thus, our DNA and anatomy is male, and we identify and are self aware as a male.

Occasionally, the self awareness part of the brain does not develop with the same gender identity as the other physical parts of the body. Though we are still learning about it, it is believed that this is what may cause gender dysphoria.

It is not believed that this is a mental illness or delusion. Someday we'll find the specific part of the brain that contains gender identity, and this condition will become much less of a mystery.

a reply to: andy06shake

What "neurological disorder"? There's no evidence of a one-to-one relationship between something that happens in utero and gender identity.

It's possible that there is a pre-natal component ... but not a given.

My point is that we're talking about human identity which is an incredibly complex matter.

a reply to: kaylaluv

I don't think the facts could be presented any more succinctly or eloquently than that.

Well done.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I did say "if" it was a neurological disorder. Think there are different studies that somewhat conflict one another regarding exactly what Transgenderism is, amounts to and/or originates.

Identity is an important component of the problem, neurological or phycological it is indeed a complex matter.

The main point i imagine is that further study is required to discern the nature of the beast.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: interupt42
The subject of the thread's gender identity is male.

1. I didn't see any mention of gender identity being the specific topic of the thread and everything else of limits. That is you and a couple of other people playing jiu jitsu word play when trying to avoid answering question or moving the target. What is "is"

I said "So you agree He identified as a male, but in reality and physically she is a STILL a female."

No, I didn't say anything like what you're saying, and I'm beginning to see that you're not dealing honestly.

So you think physically it was a male that got pregnant?

3. Identity:
Why is a person that identifies as a dog classified as mentally ill but not a transgender person until recent years? Not saying that transgender should be classified as a mental disorder , but I do think its a fair question to ask if we are going to be honest about the subject.

They both truly believe they are what they identify with, but physically they are not.

Also how should doctors treat patients by their identify or physical original gender? I do see this being a lawsuit and liability in the making. Their are medical procedures and diagnostics that are dependent on your true anatomy.

a reply to: interupt42

Well, ostesibly, the topic is about OP's disgust with a transman giving birth.

The fact is that gender identity is recognized legally, medically and scientifically.

Another fact is that gender identity is not sex nor is it anatomy.

This is the fact your posts are desperately trying to ignore.

The only one playing word games is you. Have fun.

a reply to: kaylaluv

First Thank you for the well thought out post and not being defensive, angry or attacking.
This is something I have noticed from both sides of the fence on the subject.

Though we are still learning about it, it is believed that this is what may cause gender dysphoria.

It is not believed that this is a mental illness or delusion. Someday we'll find the specific part of the brain that contains gender identity, and this condition will become much less of a mystery.

Absolutely agree.

I completely agree, still much to learn and we don't know all that is going on in the brain. My issue is with the people that automatically label someone as phobic or intolerant because they don't completely agree that transgerdism might be a valid mental illness.

There is also valid concerns if its really a mental illness , is the best course of action to play along?

a reply to: Gryphon66

The fact is that gender identity is recognized legally, medically and scientifically.

I can assure you that medically when a person that identifies as a man comes to the ER with symptoms of pregnancy they are not going to treat him like a man.

The question of differing gender identities all being "mental illness" is specious as has been pointed out.

Not all people with different gender identities have gender dysphoria.

APA has made it clear (a fact linked dozens of times) that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness in the sense that paranoid schizophrenia is, for example, or even personality disorders like borderline, narcissistic, etc.

The treatment for gender dysphoria is a constellation of practices which include medical and psychiatric evaluations, hormone therapies and surgery.

The legal acknowledgement of gender identity is simply the matter of allowing people to be treated by the law in line with their identity.

None of this is particulary complex.

a reply to: interupt42

Strawman Argument

a reply to: interupt42

All I can say is that the more studies that are done, the more the evidence is pointing away from it being mental illness, not towards it.

The fact is, when it was treated as a mental illness, the symptoms of dysphoria were not relieved at all, so there was a lot of suffering. When the treatment changed to helping the person transition, the symptoms of the dysphoria were greatly relieved.
When the transgender person has the support of their family/friends, and are not discriminated against by the community, they usually go on to lead happy, normal lives once they've transitioned. Isn't that a good thing?

a reply to: kaylaluv

Again, well said.

I wonder what will happen when medical science advances to the point that via Process X, someone can completely alter their sex and anatomy to match their gender identity.

Perfectly.

What will the hue and cry be raised about then? LOL

a reply to: Gryphon66

Oh, I'm sure the religious folk will still have a big problem with "changing the body God gave you", because we all know God never makes mistakes.