Lockheed to Offer new Fighter to Japan Using Hybrid of F-22 & F-35 Tech

a reply to: RadioRobert

That article is also a year and a half old.

a reply to: RadioRobert

It appears Japan is moving ahead in a RR approved fashion for the F-3. That is to say they are going to mature the technologies they want first (slow burn) and then launch the program. However, the timing is still mid 2030s, so if the 15 year rule is true, that burn can't be too slow. Mid 2030s with the 15 year rule means 2020+/- is when they'd have to start the program.

They are still weighing what to do though: purely domestically, take a foreign fighter and do an F-2 or participate in someone else's development project, still hasn't been decided.

www.defensenews.com... ghter-jet/

a reply to: anzha

It's all about the Benjamins... Or Fukuzawas, I guess.

It makes sense for the JASDF to dump the F-2 and upgrade their Eagles while they wait for basically the same reasons it makes sense for the USAF to dump their Eagles.
The F-2 is a ~60 plane fleet without enough commonality with standard LM F-16 blocks to drive down the cost. The 155 Eagles have higher commonality, are the bigger fleet, better capability. I doubt the Eagles are much more expensive by the hour in comparison to the F-2. They just spent ~$60M each to refurb some of tsunami-wrecked F-2's. It costs that much because there is little commonality to the worldwide blocks. The Eagles have another thousand airframes in service across the globe in comparison.
Once the Phantoms finally disappear, the F-2 is next on the chopping block. With the expanded F-35 buy, it may be sooner than later. Turn the high-hour airframes into donors while they wait on even more F-35's or the next program.

For the USAF, the opposite is mostly true. F-15 is still more capable, but it is (comparatively) the boutique force Economies of scale works for the F-16 fleet, not against it. LM is still pumping out parts because there are several thousand in service world-wide. The price per hour for F-16 is way lower than the F-15 for the USAF.

a reply to: RadioRobert

A next-generation air superiority jet for the U.S. Air Force, known by the service as Penetrating Counter Air, could cost about $300 million in 2018 dollars per plane, the Congressional Budget Office states in a new study.

...

The CBO estimates the Air Force will need 414 PCA aircraft to replace existing F-15C/Ds and F-22s, the Air Force’s current fighters geared toward air-to-air combat. It also surmises that the first aircraft will enter service in 2030, based on the service’s stated desire to begin fielding PCA around that time frame.

The reason for the whopping price tag?

Part of it comes down to the cost of new technology.

“The PCA aircraft would probably have a greater range and payload, as well as improved stealth and sensor capabilities, than today’s F-22; those characteristics would help it operate in the presence of the high-end air defenses that DoD believes China, Russia, and other potential adversaries may have in the future,” the CBO states.

www.defensenews.com...

$125B program, at least.

Is that Program Acquisition Unit Cost, Average Procurement Unit Cost, is it in then-year dollars or FY2018 dollars?

EDIT: 2018 dollars.

EDIT2: This is APUC, which does not include for example, development.

EDIT3: This is around 50% more expensive than the F-22.

EDIT4: The Report is here: www.cbo.gov...

Note the peak procurement cost exceeds the peak procurement cost of the F-35.

a reply to: C0bzz

The report says 2018 dollars.

This is pretty much how the B-2, F-22, and F-35 programs ran. The F-35 survived just barely. The other two died early deaths leaving everyone holding the bag for development costs and supporting a boutique fleet of a very small production run.

Japan economy is contracting. They can't afford expensive planes.

a reply to: CaptainJJ

Japan's GNP in absolute terms is the 3rd largest in the world and among the top in the per capita terms. They can definitely afford to fund their own plane, but the end result may be a very expensive aircraft that won't be as capable as somethign created in collaboration with other countries.

I would be very supportive of Japan, South Korea and some other Western leaning Asian nations collaborating on at least some aspects of 6th generation technology. Even when Trump is long dead and buried, there is no guarantee that the US will share its prized 6th generation technology, nor is it certain that what the US deems ideal for 6th generation will meet the needs of these countries.

a reply to: Borys

They really can't afford to run a development program for a couple hundred bleeding edge aircraft. That's how you get $130M fancy Japanese F-16's. And the high price discourages follow-on orders that would let you amoritize the development costs over a large production run.
Same thing happened with the F-22 for the US. Instead of taking advantage of the already spent, sunk development costs to buy more and lower the unit/program costs, bean-counters actually cut the order "saving money*

It's not a critique of Japan, their economy, or their industry. It's just how the accounting gets reported to the decision-makers. And how politicians everywhere react.

a reply to: mightmight

what makes you think the AF didn't get their PEA in the F35?


eta:if your talking about a new platform i can understand that, but the F35 is highly underrated

originally posted by: penroc3
a reply to: mightmight

what makes you think the AF didn't get their PEA in the F35?

Well, because they still want it?

I'm sure they could build a *EF-35D* to do everything PEA is supposed to do.
But PEA is part of the LRSB family systems and therefore supposed to complement the B-21. An F-35 based platform would lack the range and loitering capability to do that. Stealth too in my mind, put thats another topic.
So basically the Air Force has three realistic options for a PEA platform.
a) UAV Companion to the Raider which very likley already exists as the *RQ-180*, *MQ-L* or whatever
b) put it on the B-21 itself or a variant thereof - adding to its development is probably not a good idea
c) use PCA as a platform - who knows whats going to happen with it with the F-15X purchase

A entirely new platform is not realistic IMO. There is simply no money to design another 5thGen Long Range Stealth platform and build a couple of dozen (at most) aircraft.
There may or may not be a platform existing in the black they could utilize, but that is pure speculation.
I personally think the UAV companion will get the PEA capability at this point. And be ready when the B-21 reaches IOC.

a reply to: mightmight

of course i was talking about something that is operational.


From what i understand the F35 has pretty amazing EW capabilities already in its normal role and if i understood correctly that extends into a truly formattable cyber warrior by being able to get into systems and maybe implanting stuff or using its radar to just out right fry stuff.

there are clearly other things in development for the B21 family, i would love to see a clear pic of the 180 where we can see all of it.

do you think the new system will be a HALE system or something that flies over fast and targets and disrupts/destroys its targets. i can see ups and downs to both options.


like how you got the companion in there, makes me wonder if all stealth aircraft have different escorts or use the same companion. it would be nice once the new system is up and running IOC they release the 117's shadow.

I heard Japan was still talking to Northrop about an updated YF-23.

They still showed interest not to long ago.

originally posted by: penroc3
a reply to: mightmight

do you think the new system will be a HALE system or something that flies over fast and targets and disrupts/destroys its targets. i can see ups and downs to both options.

Well its stand in jamming, less about blowing things up, so you would want a platform that can go in along side or even before the B-21.
And you'd probably want to be able to loiter to support multiple attack runs.
I don't think a high speed platform is suited for that mission profile.

like how you got the companion in there, makes me wonder if all stealth aircraft have different escorts or use the same companion. it would be nice once the new system is up and running IOC they release the 117's shadow.

I don't think they want to draw any attention to Stealths neeeding support... If it gets out it will be a leak IMO. Which is very, very unlikley.

a reply to: mightmight

i could see a high speed/dash stealth SEAD platform but at that point might as well just fill in the gaps with said platform and give it the ability to loiter and do ECM/cyber/targeting, seems these days all three of those fall into the same family.

im not going to say ive seen the shadow but i have a good idea and it will definitely open up pandora's box as far as questioning stealths true capabilities

i also assume if we know that at the very least the 117 had an escort/door opener(kicker)v then Russia and China do too. China s playing a good game of catch up but from what ive seen of their production abilities they arent anywhere near the US.


on a side note i think its funny Russia all of a sudden is pushing the hypersonic area.....seems like they might have gotten wind of what we(US) are really up to.

originally posted by: penroc3
a reply to: mightmight

i could see a high speed/dash stealth SEAD platform but at that point might as well just fill in the gaps with said platform and give it the ability to loiter and do ECM/cyber/targeting, seems these days all three of those fall into the same family.

VVLO to loiter and high speed dont mix.
There is no point to go to your mission area as fast as possible if you plan to be there for at least hours to detect, sabotage and destroy.

As for high speed platforms and LRSB family in general- definite maybe.
I believe Lockheed started out with a supersonic platform for the NGB/LRSB process. Leftovers from an effort that didnt go anywhere, originating from a sister project to something they allegedly did in the 90s. When Boeing got on board and the USAF finalized what they wanted (subsonic) that changed to my understanding.
The platform in question may or may not have morphed into something that went into Conventional Prompt Global Strike though. Or just aspects of it, who knows. CPGS may or may not have resulted in somthing operationally usable and i may or may not be associated with the LRSB family. Indeed, platform associated with CPGS may have gone forward as compensation for decision on the B-21.

Pure unsourced conjecture of course.
And it has definitely nothing to do with Penetrating Stand-in Airborne Electronic Attack, Penetrating Intelligence, Surveillance & Reconnaissance or Enduring Command, Control and Communication. Thats the VVLO department of the tribe.

a reply to: mightmight




funny how far things go.

PGS in missile form was canned i thought? as it looked to much like a nuclear launch.

i could see something else in the form of an aircraft/spacecraft that would take that role and would be a great boobie prize for the losers of the B21 contract. lots of money to be had there, i have seen a yellow/orangish light moving at what i assume to be in LEO due to its speed and movement not being conducive for something flying in the air so i know there is something out there that is flying at least one platform that could easily fit into a PGS role or at the very least have some of its tech into a new platform.

a reply to: penroc3

Funny how they had this entire program just to find out they couldn’t very well launch intercontinental ballistic missiles at random targets, isn’t it?
The *yellow light* is a recon asset IMO. You’d either have the strike payload or the orbiter, not both. But you’d run into the same problems as with missiles when you start dropping stuff from orbit.
IF there CPGS birthed a high speed strike option associated with LRS, it has a considerable less impressive flight envelope.