Lockheed to Offer new Fighter to Japan Using Hybrid of F-22 & F-35 Tech

It's no secret that Japan wants to build another fighter. They had been looking at developing a 5th gen fighter derived from the X-2 demonstrator. Most sources state the Japanese have decided for whatever reason, to discontinue the effort and seek a foreign partner in the development of a new fighter. There are a few Japanese sources that contradict this narrative, fwiw. The Japanese MoD is releasing an RFI to find out what companies would be out there and interested in and capable of collaborating with Japan.

Lockheed is responding to the RFI. Lockheed is reportedly offering a new fighter with tech derived from both the F-22 and the F-35. The F-22 was banned by Congress for export back in the 90s. The F-35 had more advanced avionics (by a long shot), but was designed with export in mind (varying levels of stealth, frex).

Now my I'd guess with twin engines and a planform closer to the F-22, but with F-35 avionics and export quality stealth. It might have better engines or may use the F135s. I'd speculate a larger payload capacity and multirole aspect rather than be a dedicated A2A asset.

Given the export restrictions on the F-22, this ought to be an interesting threading of the needle for Lockheed.

www.reuters.com... urces-idUSKBN1HR0MM

a reply to: anzha

It won't be that hard. They can't use F-22 tech, but they can build an air superiority fighter, that uses similar sensor fusion to the F-35.

a reply to: anzha

Does this mean that the Mitsubishi 5th gen prototype will be thrown out? I really thought that was a capable airframe with much potential.

a reply to: Allaroundyou

Yes. It was only meant to be a demonstrator to determine if they were capable of building their own fifth gen, or if it would be better to go with assistance to build it.

F-22 planform and engines, with integral RAM structure and sensors from F-35. Let them pay for most of the development costs. Relatively cheap and quick development as the design is frozen and the subsystems are all off the shelf.
We can piggy back orders and drop the price after they are up and running. Well, a guy can dream, right?

a reply to: RadioRobert

Heh. Actually, I was dreaming Mitsubishi would team up with an American company to offer the x-2 for the T-X, but that was a pipe dream...

Zach is right that the 22 tech is banned and I think you've got in it for what they have in mind: 22 bauplan with 35 ram and avionics.

It wouldn't be as cheap as the F-35, but it'd be more capable than anything flying but the F-22 and cheaper than the F-22 on operations costs.

I just looked for the figure on the line restart and the Drive article about the Japanese project opportunity came up. One of the few things I've read there that didn't make me close it midway through.

a reply to: Zaphod58

they should just use a version of the widow, the F-23 needs to come into the light.

a reply to: penroc3

Far too late to build it, even if they'd allow it to be exported.

a reply to: Zaphod58

its crazy that there is such a great aircraft and its not being utilized like it should/could be.

if i were japan and we let them have the widow in some iteration, i would jump on it.

a reply to: penroc3

At this point it's in the same boat as restarting the F-22 line. It would cost them at least as much as a clean sheet design to rebuild the tooling, modernize it, redesign it to their specifications, etc.

a reply to: Zaphod58

true enough but it's so beautiful.

i still am wondering about this from a while ago, japan seemed to be doing just fine on their own. why do you think they just dropped their own homegrown aircraft.

a reply to: penroc3

Because going from 4th to 5th gen is really damn hard. It's one thing to do it with a demonstrator, another to do it with a large scale program.

a reply to: Zaphod58

As the Russians are finding out...

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: penroc3

At this point it's in the same boat as restarting the F-22 line. It would cost them at least as much as a clean sheet design to rebuild the tooling, modernize it, redesign it to their specifications, etc.

Likely far worse. The F-22 has already been through the grinder. The YF-23? Square one.

Could change the law on the tech of both, though.....

Afaik Japan Defense Ministry stance has been to either fully develop the next-generation fighter jet domestically, develop it jointly with other nations, or extend the life of the F-2.

But there seems to be some "politics" going on, with the Finance Ministry opposing domestic development.

Regarding the Lockheed offer, I don't think it would be that simple to replace F-22 avionics. There is also the question of engines. Would they use F135 or a derivative? Would that require changes to the airframe? How would it affect performance?

It will be interesting to see how this develops. The result might be a joint Mitsubishi Lockheed project, that is not an upgraded F-22.

You'd go with the F119, I'm sure. The F135 is a derivative of the F119 already, but the F135 is longer, and you'd have to figure out if the nozzle could take the heat, how much strength/weight you need to add structurally.
I imagine it'd be tempting to try to shoehorn in the extra thrust and take advantage of the existing supply line(s) for the F135, but I don't know that you could do it without a major redesign aft. Seems cheaper/faster, etc to minimize planform, structural, aero changes.

Smaller is better for Japanese

a reply to: RadioRobert

I think F119 production has been shut down around 2013. So it would have to be restarted too.

originally posted by: RadioRobert
You'd go with the F119, I'm sure. The F135 is a derivative of the F119 already, but the F135 is longer, and you'd have to figure out if the nozzle could take the heat, how much strength/weight you need to add structurally.
I imagine it'd be tempting to try to shoehorn in the extra thrust and take advantage of the existing supply line(s) for the F135, but I don't know that you could do it without a major redesign aft. Seems cheaper/faster, etc to minimize planform, structural, aero changes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is the F-119 is a very low by-pass engine. It's designed for the high speed, air superiority role. The F-135 is about 20% bigger in diameter and a high by-pass, turbo fan styled engine who's performance stands out in the sub-sonic role.

Mix the two concepts and you'd end up with something not as good as either.