Watergate Vs. FISA Memo

a reply to: MotherMayEye


Typical hypocrisy, no shock there.

a reply to: Grambler

Because both involve possible shady actions being taken to spy on oppoenents.

But I agree, this is of a far greater magnitude than sending a couple of guys into a hotel, this is Obamas admin using the intel community to spy.

Again, you're just painting with the BIGGEST brush you can imagine and ignoring fundamental facts that tank this assertion. There's no evidence that the Obama administration used intel for any improper purpose. The "sending a couple of guys into a hotel" thing is bogus too.

The Nixon admin used the entire intelligence apparatus to spy on its political foes. For the purpose of spying on those foes, having nothing to do with national security, having nothing to do with defending the country from a hostile foreign power, having nothing to do with anything but spying for political gain.

What actually happened in the specific event you are talking about has FAR MORE in common with the Russians hacking the DNC. Nixon's team paid 5 men to break into the DNC HQ (not a hotel room). Not even remotely comparable.

Meeting russians is not a crime. If the dossier, which was unverified and based on publicly available knowledge was used for the fisa warrant, it is a scandal bigger than watergate.

I don't know why you keep saying this to me lmao. I think we can stipulate that it's your opinion.

originally posted by: SkeptiSchism
I think the government breaks it's own laws frequently. I also think they only get caught when there are large political splits, watergate was such a time as is now.

When the government is unified to screw us the people they can get away with it, when they are not then they are subject to their own laws that's how it works.

Should that shield wrong doers from prosecution? Of course not, I say whenever we get a change to hold their feet to the fire do it because they are busy covering their own asses instead of raping ours.

/rant

When political division is at a fever pitch, that's when each side will totally overlook all kinds of corruption and criminality -- on their own side.

That's when *they* get away with it and why they manufacture fever-pitch division.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Realtruth

I'm not seeing the similarities.

Quite different situations, actually.

They're not even remotely comparable. It's just a comparison people make when they talk about scandals that could implicate a President.

The counterintelligence investigation was legitimate and in fact, if they hadn't launched it, that would have been malfeasance. Carter Page was a perfectly legitimate target for the investigation. The FBI went to the FISC to get a warrant — they went through the legal process to get a warrant for a legitimate target in a legitimate national security investigation. Add to that the fact that Carter Page wasn't part of the campaign at that point and in fact, the campaign was doing everything thing it could to distance itself from him.

on the other hand:

Nixon used the IC to spy on his opponents writ large. When it comes to the break-in, 5 men were paid by his "dirty tricks" slush fund to break in to the DNC HQ, to steal intel to give to Nixon's team.

The Watergate break-in has more in common with the Russian hacking of the DNC than anything that it could be compared to from this election:

Watergate break-in = DNC HQ broken into to steal information to benefit the Republican candidate in the upcoming election

DNC Hack = DNC HQ broken into to steal information to benefit the Republican canddiate in the upcoming election

a reply to: Realtruth

let me show you how far the narrative has been dissected & respun in just a short 12 months - I've highlighted their exact words so you can see who said what, and when.......

*At a campaign rally in Grand Junction, Colorado, Trump - “The press has created a rigged system and poisoned the minds of the voters.”

*Obama at a speech somewhere...."no serious person out there who would suggest somehow that you could even rig America's elections / "You start whining before the game's even over?" / "There is no evidence that that has happened in the past or instances where it could happen this time, so I'd advise Mr Trump to stop whining"

The Democrats say you can't rig the US election, yet they hang their collective hats on Russia interference in the 2016 election (Russia has been influencing US elections since the 80's, but anyway....)

Obama, Hillary and all their bat-monkeys are dodgy AF and now that the memo has been released by the intelligence committee, I expect to see lots of past dirt dug up and where necessary, prosecutions and jail time ensue.

a reply to: Sublimecraft

The goal post has been moved. Its not (and never was, despite our own memory) about Russia. Its about obstruction of justice.

LMAO

a reply to: theantediluvian

As usual, despite disagreeing with you, I think it's a good conversation.

In on phone so I'll be brief.

I don't care what the Dutch say, the fbi refused to look at the server, that inexcusable.

I have yet to see the fbi release proof that Russia hacked the dnc. I have seen evidence both ways.

Other than that hack, what else did they do? Facebook and Twitter posts?

That's laughable, especially considering we now know the people that run Facebook and Twitter censor conservative posts. I guess we need a special council to investigate them.

I am glad after months you have finally come clean that you are ok with the fbi using Hillary's team paid for minimally verified Kremlin sources dirt to spy on people that were in trumps team.

Funny how the narrative has shifted. First it was there is no proof the dossier was used for fisa warrants.

Then it was even if it was used it wasmt that important because there were other things used.

Them it was well perhaps it was used, but was verified.

Now it is who cares, it's perfectly legitimate to use it.

originally posted by: Grambler

I have yet to see the fbi release proof that Russia hacked the dnc. I have seen evidence both ways.

Other than that hack, what else did they do? Facebook and Twitter posts?

That's laughable, especially considering we now know the people that run Facebook and Twitter censor conservative posts.

I am interested in the response you get to this.

People forget that the Obama campaign solicited something of great value DIRECTLY from a foreign leader, during his 2008 campaign. He didn't get exactly what he solicited, but he got something nearly as valuable.

And his campaign solicited it...which is enough to violate the law that Trump is being alleged to have violated, whether he got his way or not. AND Obama accepted the 'consolation' offer.

AND! It had arguably as much impact on the 2008 election as Russia had on the 2016 election. Maybe more.

No one questioned it. No one suggested it might be criminal.

It was blatant, that solicitation. The news reported on it and the articles can still be found on the internet, today.

I think Obama's solicitation of a thing of value from a foreign head of state is just as bad, if not worse, than what Trump is being investigated for.

a reply to: Grambler

I always find our debates to be my favorites too.

A lot has evolved as the months of speculation have drug on. Remember the big right-wing narrative that the dossier was the reason for the investigation? That's completely gone now after MONTHS of it being screamed from the rooftops.

With that tanked, it was "the dodgy dossier was used to get FISA warrants to spy on the Trump campaign during the election!"

How much bull# was being slung by Trumpdom?

"I have a message tonight for the special counsel, Robert Mueller. Your witch hunt is over. Time to close the doors." --Hannity

"This is far worse than Watergate. This is an abuse of surveillance and intelligence to win an election." --Hannity

"You are describing the very elements of a palace coup. The entire Mueller investigation is a lie built on a foundation of corruption" --Rep. Matt "repeat offender" Gaetz

"This makes Watergate look like stealing a Snickers bar." --Hannity

And of course, people are here trying to make a comparison to Watergate that doesn't exist. I wonder why?

The memo pretty much tanked that too as there's 0 mention of Manafort or *any other member of Team Trump* being under a FISA warrant that had *anything* to do with the dossier. And this is with Nunes running his own secret investigations for a year. Why didn't they I wonder? I mean, if this was a huge politically motivated conspiracy to stop Trump from getting elected magically topple Trump (not sure how that works but whatever, let's run with that) and the "dodgy dossier" was the linchpin of the the whole investigation used to get a FISA warrant (in *some* way), why didn't this evil deep state cabal of Trump-hating coup conspirators use it to get FISA warrants on other people, like Trump or members of his administration or people who were still in his campaign, his friends, somebody — anybody at all — why just poor poor innocent Carter Page?

Does not make sense.

Now the overacrching narrative has contracted into, "Trump-hater Chris Steele's 'salacious and unverified' dossier was used to get a FISA warrant to spy on Carter Page, former Trump campaign staffer!"

The would be conspiracy to end all conspiracies just keeps eroding, getting smaller and less significant by the week — in substance anyway — but the screeches of alarm coming from Trump loyalists like Hannity and the Nunes-Gaetz-DeSantis-Jordan-etc bunch never decrease in volume.

Now it just seems like they're trying to keep it alive through sheer force of will and scary adjectives.

I'll wait to see the minority memo and hopefully get a fuller picture of the FISA warrant app and process. If somebody from the FBI/DOJ knowingly misled the FISC judge, that person can and should be punished.

I'm waiting to see what the OIG investigation turns up and to see what's in the minority memo.

But pretending that this is a massive scandal based on what's in that memo is more than a massive reach. They couldn't even connect the dude they've been working feverishly to smear (Strzok) with the FISA memo app or to Steele.

It's really pretty bizarre. Especially now that a Trump shill has pretty much killed off most of the narrative and took a victory lap before doing it.

I'll add one more thing that I was just thinking that I didn't get into my earlier posts:

The initial FISA warrant for Carter Page was obtained a month after he left the Trump campaign, on October 21, 2016. FISA warrants have to be reauthorized every 90-days. There were 4 extensions. Do the math on that.

90 days later is January 19, 2017. There were 3 extensions after that. All of them happened with Trump in office. If we assume that Carter Page was under surveillance for 4x90 days, that's 360 days which brings use to what? October 16, 2017?

So here's the stats on the days that Carter Page was under FISA warrant.

While on the Trump campaign staff: 0 days
While Obama was in office: 92 days
While Trump was in office: 268 days

Trump admin violated the rights of Saint Carter Page the Innocent 3x longer than the Obama administration! Oh, the scandal! And under Donald "Deep State" Trump's watch!

a reply to: MotherMayEye


Shhhh, wouldn't want to be accused of playing "whataboutism"

You know, once the Democrats merely accuse you of something, you aren't allowed to bring up their actions/crimes/hypocrisy because it is "whataboutism"

Giant nothing burger! The illegal investigation and wiretapping, however, is the biggest scandal to ever rock this government.

originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: MotherMayEye


Shhhh, wouldn't want to be accused of playing "whataboutism"

You know, once the Democrats merely accuse you of something, you aren't allowed to bring up their actions/crimes/hypocrisy because it is "whataboutism"

Giant nothing burger! The illegal investigation and wiretapping, however, is the biggest scandal to ever rock this government.

Ha...in the U.S. justice system...'whataboutism' is sanctioned by the 14th Amendment, although it's usually referred to as equal justice, not 'whataboutism.'

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: Grambler



A lot has evolved as the months of speculation have drug on. Remember the big right-wing narrative that the dossier was the reason for the investigation? That's completely gone now after MONTHS of it being screamed from the rooftops.

I have never said that.

In fact, even if the memo is totaly accurate, I still dont think that should effect the charges at least against Manfort and Gates.

Yes there are hyperbolic people on all sides, but I much prefer us more rational people discussing it.

And of course, people are here trying to make a comparison to Watergate that doesn't exist. I wonder why?

I do think that if the dossier was used for the fisa warrant, this is bigger than watergate. (I know you are probably saying I just said I was against people being hyperbolic, but I dont think I am being so)

I outlined in a thread many months ago why this is the case.

In short, it is Obamas FBI targeting political opponents based on minimally verified oppo research sourced from the very country they accused trump of getting dirt from to spy on people that were in trumps campaign.

Watergate was an issue because a few of nixons people sought to spy on his opponents hotel room.

Weaponizing the intel community against your opponent, then spreading that info far and wide including to allies is an appaling abuse of power of such a greater magnitude.

The memo pretty much tanked that too as there's 0 mention of Manafort or *any other member of Team Trump* being under a FISA warrant that had *anything* to do with the dossier. And this is with Nunes running his own secret investigations for a year. Why didn't they I wonder? I mean, if this was a huge politically motivated conspiracy to stop Trump from getting elected magically topple Trump (not sure how that works but whatever, let's run with that) and the "dodgy dossier" was the linchpin of the the whole investigation used to get a FISA warrant (in *some* way), why didn't this evil deep state cabal of Trump-hating coup conspirators use it to get FISA warrants on other people, like Trump or members of his administration or people who were still in his campaign, his friends, somebody — anybody at all — why just poor poor innocent Carter Page?

Because they got what they needed. havent you seen the 24/7 nonstop cpverage of trump stealing the election with putin?

Now the overacrching narrative has contracted into, "Trump-hater Chris Steele's 'salacious and unverified' dossier was used to get a FISA warrant to spy on Carter Page, former Trump campaign staffer!"

I have outlined exactly whyy this is such a big story.

The funny thing is you have admitted that you think the investigtaion inot hillary should probably be reopened because of shadiness by the FBI.

Yet here you have no problem with the fbi using minimally verified oppo research sourced from the very country they accused trump of getting dirt from to spy on people that were in trumps campaign.

I'll wait to see the minority memo and hopefully get a fuller picture of the FISA warrant app and process. If somebody from the FBI/DOJ knowingly misled the FISC judge, that person can and should be punished.

Except its not just one person, it is several people, who were at the top of the trump and hillary investigations.

I'm waiting to see what the OIG investigation turns up and to see what's in the minority memo.

I too am anxious to see those before I am totally convinced.

However, I flat out reject the idea that if the memo is true, and if the fbi used this dossier to get a fisa warrant, its not a big deal.

But pretending that this is a massive scandal based on what's in that memo is more than a massive reach. They couldn't even connect the dude they've been working feverishly to smear (Strzok) with the FISA memo app or to Steele.

What does that matter?

That just shows there were multiple levels of bias and wrong doing, not just one person.

Again, I understand if you dont believe the memo. But I dont understand how you can say if the allegations in it are true its not a big deal.

It's really pretty bizarre. Especially now that a Trump shill has pretty much killed off most of the narrative and took a victory lap before doing it.

What narrative has been killed? That the fbni started its investigation with the dossier?

Thats jever been my narrative.

My theory was thaat if the FBI used the dosssier to get fisa warrants, it was a horrible abuse. I stand by that.

As far as Papadopolous, I am going to do a thread on that here soon, but suffice it to say, if that is the reason the investigation got started, it is also despicable.

So here's the stats on the days that Carter Page was under FISA warrant.

While on the Trump campaign staff: 0 days
While Obama was in office: 92 days
While Trump was in office: 268 days

Trump admin violated the rights of Saint Carter Page the Innocent 3x longer than the Obama administration! Oh, the scandal! And under Donald "Deep State" Trump's watch!

Again, they attempted to get the warrant on page in the summer and failed. They could still look at pages communications from when he was on the staff, and with and about staff people when he was gone.

The dossier was also used to smear Trump in the media and to allies about how trump may be compromised, which is really what led to the year long smearing of trump, which is exactly what the financiers of the dossier wanted, as outlined in the book "shattered"

Hillary and her team decided election night when they lost to smear trump as a putin agent. Wikileaks released a internal study done in 2015 (I think) showing that Clintons own team thought the U1 connection to russia was there biggest weakness, and so they should smear trump with that allegation.

And the dossier allowed them to do just that.

And as you know, the FBI even under trump is still filled with the Obama holdovers at the top. And if Trump did anything to stop the warrant on Page, he would have again be accused of obstruction.

Don't forget this gem.... The FISA court was created to catch foreign terrorists. But this process and institution was abused to gain a wiretap on an American citizen for the sole purpose of gathering intelligence to be used against a presidential candidate to either 1) prevent him from winning an election, or 2) used to find a reason to impeach him should he win. Let that sink in.....

I think we can definitely show collusion with the Russians took place.... In the form of the dossier, the FBI, and the Clintons/DNC