The Bible Is All About Jesus Christ Being Exalted.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Actually I can show that the likelyhood is low. Due to the fact that it has been translated through several languages, and edited for political reasons.

You actually don't understand my faith do you? I've told you before, I am a polytheist. I believe in Gods (note the plural). My faith is coming from a place significantly older than yours. Does it make it better? NO, however it means I'm not just making it up as I go either.

SO your heaven, is for you. My Otherworld, and return to this, via the Halls of Donn (in both directions) is mine.

You assume I'm young Your Yoda sucks.

Oh and I've witnesses to your threats of violence. You must have been Jonesing when you did that

Our story picks up with King Saul about to do battle and lost in total confusion. Samuel the prophet and advisor to King Saul has now died. Samuel was born in 931 B.C. and became a leader from God in 890 B.C. He died in 877 B.C. at the age of 54. This left King Saul with no mediator between God and him.

King Saul had two adjutants named Abner and Amasa who were just as confused as was Saul. Abner was the most influential man in this kingdom besides the king himself because he was Saul’s cousin as well as his adjutant. None of these three men were faithful to the teachings of Samuel nor were they believers of God’s power. King Saul sought communication in military matters but did not now have Samuel as the mediator between himself and God such as in the past. His understanding of God was virtually destroyed and he did not understand that as a king he should have the ability to seek God in these matters. In all reality Saul was anointed by God Himself and yet he knew not his very own God who anointed him. This teaches that all men should seek God with one accord and that no man should rely upon another man for his salvation.

Saul then did what so many people do and sought another method of redemption, but still he did not choose the direct and correct method which was to have sought God in these matters. Instead he concocted an evil way to communicate with Samuel, not realizing that this was more difficult than to simply pray, repent, and seek the Lord God himself. Saul had become so dependent upon Samuel that he was blinded in all of these matters and here we see that sharp contrast between Saul and David. David being such a man of God that he talked with his God and repented at each slip of the pathway. He was a man who cried and bowed his back into the dust of the earth because of shame and yet he was a man who knew God better than most all men who have ever lived.

Now it was that in all of the land of Israel that witches were to be swept from this land so that the evils of witchcraft would not be taught to others and by this edict there should have not been a witch in the land of Israel. But Saul’s adjutant, Abner, had a mother, named Zephaniah, who was a witch and while it has not been recorded as such, it brings to light that Abner’s mother may have been allowed to exist because of her son’s great military status. This was that avenue which Saul had chosen and it bears out the belief in which there was not honesty in Saul’s government. In fact he had no difficulty in knowing that his adjutant, Abner, could produce his mother at ease. If Saul had been a righteous king he would have had no witch to seek out in the first place.

Abner’s mother was known as the witch of Endor because she lived in a small village about 6 miles S.E. of Nazareth on the feet of Little Hermon. This was in the land of Issachar but among the tribes of Manasseh and here lays the town of Endor where Abner’s mother practiced her necromancy. In necromancy the peculiar rule holds good that, unless it is summoned by a king, a spirit raised from the dead appears head downward and feet in the air. Accordingly, when the figure of Samuel stood upright before them, the witch knew that the king was with her. Though the witch saw Samuel, she could not hear what he said, while Saul heard his words, but could not see his person -- another peculiar phenomenon in necromancy: the conjuror sees the spirit, and he for whom the spirit has been raised only hears it. Any other person present neither sees nor hears it.

And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. 54

Samuel was buried in the garment which his mother had made for him and it is the belief that all of the dead will be resurrected in the garment which they have been interred in. This garment he had worn all throughout his life and it is believed that this also bare the evidence that this was indeed Samuel. This is also believed to this very day by the Jews.

The results of this were devastating for Saul as he heard the witch proclaim her findings. Samuel was indeed raised from beneath the earth and appeared before the witch of Endor and then Samuel told Saul that the kingship would be taken from his head and given to David and that he and his sons would be killed in this great battle. As was told before, no one could hear this conversation except Saul and Samuel and no one could see Samuel except the witch herself. Both Abner and Amasa asked Saul what Samuel said and Saul lied to them as he told them that all would be well. The following day Saul and his sons were dead as a result of this battle with the Philistines.

One could wonder at all of this as to ask why would God allow this to happen in the first place because the Levitical laws of Exodus 22:18 and Deuteronomy 18: 10 told the people very clearly that no one is allowed to consort with the dead. But regardless of God’s permissive will compared to His perfect will, He allowed this type of magic to exist. The Hebrews had learned this magic while they were in bondage to Egypt and in so doing it was another of those abominations which God would prefer to have erased from their lives.

A necromancer was a person who could conjure up a corpse from his grave and from his armpit [joint] that one would speak in a very deep voice. Also there were those who divine with a jawbone of an animal known as a Jidoa. The Jidoa had a form and face such as a human and was tied to the ground by a cord attached to its navel. The necromancer would then place this jawbone in his or her mouth and it would speak untold secrets. Regardless of the truth in this matter, it came about that God wanted all of this type of heathen practice and belief purged from His Hebrews and it was for this reason that the witches were to be purged out of the land of Israel.

Continued -------

Continued ---

Our Rabbis taught: A Ba'al ob is one who speaks from between the joints of his body and his elbow joints. A yidde'oni is one who places the bone of a yidoa’ in his mouth and it speaks of itself. An objection is raised: And thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground: surely that means that it speaks naturally? — No. It ascends and seats itself between his joints and speaks. Come and hear: And the woman said unto Saul, I saw a god-like form ascending out of the earth: [And Samuel said to Saul . . .] surely that means that it spoke naturally? — No. It settled itself between her joints and spoke.

R. Hanania b. Gamaliel said: Also not to partake of the blood drawn from a living animal. R. Hidka added emasculation. R. Simeon added sorcery. R. Jose said: The heathens were prohibited everything that is mentioned in the section on sorcery. viz., There shall not be found among you any one, that maketh his son or daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them [sc. the heathens in Canaan] out from before thee. Now, [the Almighty] does not punish without first prohibiting.

A SORCERER, IF HE ACTUALLY PERFORMS MAGIC etc. Our Rabbis taught: [Thou shalt not suffer] a witch [to live]: this applies to both man and woman. If so, why is a [female] witch stated? — Because mostly women engage in witchcraft. How are they executed? — R. Jose the Galilean said: Here it is written, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere is written, Thou shalt not suffer anything that breatheth to live. Just as there, the sword is meant, so here is the sword meant too. R. Akiba said: It is here stated, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; whilst elsewhere it is said, [There shall not a hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through;] whether it be beast or man, it shall not live. Just as there, death by stoning is meant, so here too. R. Jose said to him, I have drawn an analogy between ‘Thou shalt not suffer to live’ written in two verses, whilst you have made a comparison between ‘Thou shalt not suffer to live’, and ‘It shall not live’. R. Akiba replied: I have drawn an analogy between two verses referring to Israelites, for whom the Writ hath decreed many modes of execution, whilst you have compared Israelites to heathens

R. Abaye b. Nagri said in the name of R. Hiyya b. Abba: Belatehem refers to magic through the agency of demons, belahatehem to sorcery [without outside help]. And thus it is also said, And the flame [Heb. lahat] of the sword that turns of itself. Abaye said: The sorcerer who insists on exact paraphernalia works through demons; he who does not works by pure enchantment. Abaye said: The laws of sorcerers are like those of the Sabbath: certain actions are punished by stoning, some are exempt from punishment, yet forbidden, whilst others are entirely permitted. Thus: if one actually performs magic, he is stoned; if he merely creates an illusion, he is exempt, yet it is forbidden; whilst what is entirely permitted? — Such as was performed by R. Hanina and R. Oshaia, who spent every Sabbath eve in studying the Laws of Creation, by means of which they created a third-grown calf and ate it

This has been clearly shown to us, by the ancients, that God has forbidden this type of action for a very good and personal reason. The Hebrew people were rescued from Egypt in order to school them such as they should have remained in the days of Shem. If man was allowed to practice this abomination, then God would remain nothing more than what they saw Him as in Egypt. There simply would not be any re education involved. This is actually consorting with Lucifer and his leagues of demons. Being an abomination, it is not of God because God can not bless anything He curses nor can He curse anything which He blesses.

Out of all of this concerning the practice of necromancy, we can now ask the question as to whether this magic did really happen or whether it was simply folklore. Can we bring our twentieth century minds to believe that this could happen today? There are some who insist that black magic really does exist and that when people delve into these matters, such as wedge boards and incantations, that it very well can bring about the demonology of the underworld.

I tried to paste a portion of my book as it would read from the book but it was will not paste as i would have liked. Nevertheless, as you can understand, according to Hebrew tradition, there is much more to witchcraft than simply a poisoner.

a reply to: Seede

Neighbour the problem here is "Witchcraft" is something different in different cultures. The word Witchcraft has been substituted for the Hebrew term. The Indo-European idea of Witchcraft (which is what the Europeans would have been thinking they were dealing with) is very different. Its low magic, its wisecraft (herbalism, folk remedy etc), peasant magic. Not Sorcery. Not Satan (no thats Christian and thus Abrahamic insertions).

a reply to: Noinden

a reply to: Seede

Neighbour the problem here is "Witchcraft" is something different in different cultures. The word Witchcraft has been substituted for the Hebrew term. The Indo-European idea of Witchcraft (which is what the Europeans would have been thinking they were dealing with) is very different. Its low magic, its wisecraft (herbalism, folk remedy etc), peasant magic. Not Sorcery. Not Satan (no thats Christian and thus Abrahamic insertions).

Quite right and I appreciate your making the distinction. This is exactly why I wrote the way that I wrote this article. Showing the Sumerian (Hebrew) monotheistic teaching will not satisfy your polytheistic understanding and that is precisely why this thread cannot and will never exchange any sort of an agreement with your understanding. That would be a total impossibility. Actually we are on two entirely different pages and that is why Chester was openly offering Christian thought of which the AV bible is centered. Chester's entire thread was openly centered upon Jesus the Christ of The Most High El of Abram and nothing else. You simply cannot interject polytheism into this thread and have a fair debate or sensible discussion.
Enjoyed your take on the thread.

a reply to: Seede

Yet Monotheists seem to think they can inject themselves into polytheistic debates just fine. Just pointing this out.

The point returns to Chester insisting that one of the most edited documents in existence (the protestant bible) is the presresrved word of a God. My family of paths, embraces a spiritual evolution, his (I'm not going to lump you in there) abhors the idea

Oh and for the record, I've studied monotheistic faiths, at University (I took theology and Religious Studies papers during my PhD (in CHemistry) for interest, as that was encouraged. I also took Business papers).

EDIT

Oh and the point about witches is not a Monotheistic vs Polytheistic thing it quite literally IS a language thing. The Hebrew words are not the various indo-european ones. A witch is an Indo-European designation (it was not very positive either, as the Germanic peoples found Magic to be unmanly, and odd, but other IE cultures were less biased). But to say "Witch" you need to know what it means, and no, the Bibles meaning is not that meaning.

a reply to: Noinden

Many Christians tend to believe they have a monopoly on God(s)... regardless of what one may believe their god is the one who decides everything... Thus all are destined for "heaven or hell" regardless of your diety

I even had a lengthy discussion with a pastor once, who said specifically "all other beliefs should convert to ours"... this included other sects of trinitarianism and Christianity in general.

this actually caused me to almost laugh, and i had to stifle myself... which pissed him off royally!

Fundamentalism in religion is a disease... a plague on this planet

a reply to: Akragon

Yeah they do, though how many Christians think they are the only true Christians (tm)?

I still have an issue with people thinking unrealated words in different languages can be substituted.

Mana in polynesian cultures, looks like Manna from the bible. HOWEVER the meaning is not even similar. A congnate would be Irish enech (face in the tribe) and clu (reputation beyond the tribe), yet its still not the same. But Chester would have us just substitute a word, and asasume it preserves the meaning.

Of course (and this will have Chester threaten me again), he thinks he understands language better than I. You know despite my faith requiring me to translate (for personal use) passages from Old Irish and Gaulish Or my day job requiring me to translate foreign language Scientific papers to find out how something was done. SO I can actually try and repeat it, and perhaps scale it for an industrial process

Dogma is a hell of a drug Akragon.

a reply to: Noinden

Dogma is a hell of a drug Akragon.

Good movie too!! lol

a reply to: Akragon

Eh I'm not a Kevin Smith Fan, his comics blew as well

a reply to: Noinden

Faith is universal. The difference between mine and yours is yours is misplaced. I understand faith just fine and I know your faith will lead you down the wide path that leadeth to destruction because your faith is of your flesh, mine is the faith of Jesus Christ.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Have fun with your faith while you can.

And by the way the Europeans, Especially the English translators of the AV were a lot more educated than you think. Witchcraft is Witchcraft no matter where it is practiced. It is hated by God Almighty, the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they who practice such will be on the outside where there is gnashing of teeth, everlasting fire and a worm that eats them but their bodies are never consumed not to mention all the remembrances of all the chance they had to put their FAITH in Jesus Christ, as well as every wicked thing they did with their witchcraft and that they did without it.

Gal 5:19-20 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Ahh and here comes the judgmental threatening Chester. Can you prove my faith is misplaced? I hold a high paid job (as does my wife), we have a healthy happy son after trying for a number of years. I have no major health concerns. I don't appear to being punished for my faith in my gods. Rather it could be said, that the fealty I share with my gods, is being paid back, as one would expect in the known cultural norms of that culture.

No where did I say Europeans were uneduated. You are misunderstanding greatly. I siad INDO-Eurpeans. In that the language group which includes a great many of the languages spoken today. From many of the Indian languages, to Persian, to the Romance languages, and yes he Germanic family, which includes English. No where did I say uneducated. What I said, was a witch, was low magic. Higher magic would be the Magi, the Druids, the Flammen, etc.

I have said it before and I will say it again. You don't know what you are talking about when you enter my spiritual areas. You have dogma, filtered through the propoganda and paranoia

a reply to: Noinden

a reply to: Noinden

Yet Monotheists seem to think they can inject themselves into polytheistic debates just fine. Just pointing this out. The point returns to Chester insisting that one of the most edited documents in existence (the protestant bible) is the presresrved word of a God. My family of paths, embraces a spiritual evolution, his (I'm not going to lump you in there) abhors the idea

Quote --
“Yet Monotheists seem to think they can inject themselves into polytheistic debates just fine. Just pointing this out.”

I believe you lost me in that quote. The thread was centered on monotheistic theological premise and not on polytheistic debates. I don’t quite see what you are driving at with that statement. You are the one who has interjected polytheistic beliefs and used Hebrew to English language translations.

Was it not you who said that – Quote “"Thou Shalt Not Suffer a Witch to Live"in reality was in hebrew “Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live.” m’khashepah does not mean witch. Witch in herbrew is chasapah.

Thus your "preserved word of god" is flawed. --------------

Now to be fair in this, and I am somewhat overtaken by your rejecting the Hebrew use of the word “witch,” the only source we have today that is closest to the autographs of Torah are the dead sea scrolls. In the dead sea scrolls of Exodus 22:18, we have the translation of the Hebrew word “Kashaph” as to English translated "Sorceress."

Also the Masoretic text of Exodus 22:18, in the AV bible, we also have the same Hebrew word “Kashaph” translated as “witch.” How the word “Kashaph” originated in the Hebrew usage, no one truly knows other than assuming that it came to the Hebrews through the Sumerian languages since that is where Hebrew originated.

In rabbinical studies it is taught that the words witch and sorceress are used interchangeably but not necessarily correctly. Why? Because a witch can be associate as either good or evil whereas a sorceress, in Hebrew/Aramaic is almost entirely used as meaning evil.

Now this is not the solution as in other Indo-European languages but the thread here is not of that nature. The thread here is of the AV bible and its usage and it was clearly OP’d in that respect.

I do respect other opinions but in all fairness I do not see where the Christian translators had any part in this translation of Exodus 22:18. This translation came from 9th and 10th century rabbinic understanding of the Aleppo codex and not from either Greek or English translators. We verified this with the DSS which in most cases is word for word translation as far back as 200-300 B.C.E..

The reason this is important is that the Hebrew MSS of 200 or 300 B.C.E. which were used to translate Torah to Greek are forever lost. The Aleppo MSS that was used in the Masoretic Torah was almost totally destroyed by the Muslims so that leaves us with the DSS.

Actually we cannot say that the AV bible translators are in error when the AV translators did not contribute to either Torah or Tanack translation to English. The blame, if warranted, must go to the Hebrews or orthodox Jews.
Good read I must say -------------------lol

a reply to: Noinden

The judgement is from the word of God (try reading it again, if you really had ever before), and I made no threatenings what so ever. If I had a dollar for every time you and some others here at ATS said I threatened, maligned and attacked them when I had not, I would be a few thousand dollars richer today.


the Translators as well knew well the languages they were translating from, you point does point to saying they didn't know the languages as those today know them. But nothing could be further from the truth, since 1880's almost all of the 300 plus versions of the Bibles translators focused on ONLY two main documents when they translate the Vaticanicus(SP?) and the Siticanius(SP?). So in reality they know less today, than those in 1611 England who translated the AV.

The true judgement of God... Is different for everyone. We each fall short of his glory.
So... We each suffer according to our works, or lack thereof.

God bless... Is all we inherit at that time of judgement. God bless.. is easy to say.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

If I had a dollar for every time you and some others here at ATS said I threatened, maligned and attacked them when I had not, I would be a few thousand dollars richer today.

This... would be a threat... regardless of where it is written

and I know your faith will lead you down the wide path that leadeth to destruction because your faith is of your flesh

especially since the poster you're replying to does not believe your god is in fact God, but just another deity...IF that

Basically IF he doesn't believe what you believe he will be punished...

SO ya...

You do threaten people with your bible, which you claim is the word of God, but none the less...

the threat was issued regardless of where it came from.... YOU typed it, and it was directed at another

a reply to: ChesterJohn

You keep missing the point.

Witch, is an Ind-European word (Germanic branch) most probably from the Proto Indo-European *weg-yo- from PIE root *weg- "to be strong, be lively."

chasapah is a Hebrew word. It does not mean the same thing as witch.

As such the translators (I believe a Scot, I could be wrong) substituted a word.

Thus it is imperfect. Thus the word of your God was not preserved. QED

a reply to: Noinden

Witch is a generic term for anyone who practices any type of sorceries using animistic or shamanistic rituals and chemicals.

Remember it is just like Allah is a Arabic generic term for God. NOT!

I can careless what Hebrew word means what. We have no way of knowing seeing today's Hebrew is not the same as the Palestinian Hebrew was 2000 years ago and how it differed from that 2000 years before that.

The same with Koine Greek. Only fragments of a Greek NT Not a whole one in the bunch even if you put them altogether. And instead of using spiritual words in Koine Greek to give the meaning to Spiritual Koine Greek, So called scholars use parts of secular Koine Greek and classical Greek to give the meaning to the spiritual Koine words of God. If God wanted us to have a preserved Koine Greek he would have preserved one whole and complete but he did not because he knew it was dying out as a trade language.

No, God is far more powerful than the minds of men could ever be and there in only one mind among men that is smart enough to the mind of Christ and that is those who are truly Saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. No, he used men to inspire his words preserved for the trade language of our day English in a form of English that is pure, respectful and edifying, the English of the AKJV.

When Ezekiel likened Israel in allegory as a daughter who played the harlot with the Assyrians and that they would come a Crush their paps and bruise their teats. It was the false soft pornographic version of the Living bible that say, they will come and message caress their breast. Which meant absolutely nothing and changed the word of God from a prophecy of destruction of Israel to that of sensuality and debauchery.

So don't get all hypocritical on me and tell me the Hebrew means this or that when you don't even know what you are saying.

IN English Witchcraft is a generic term for all that is practiced in the use incantations, spells, potions, animistic or Shamanistic. Every True Christian knows this. I have personally seen it and experienced it first hand in the jungles of Palawan.

I have practiced it as a youth in Southern California, and when I had renounced all that and was saved by Grace through Faith on Christ in 1993, I returned home to So Cal and warned people to be prepared that within two weeks an earthquake would take place. And right on time the Northridge earthquake took place in California, and a 6 inch by 20ft by 20ft slab that we had a pentagram on for almost 20 years was shattered. Exactly two weeks to the day that I told friends and family it would happen. Some laughed and other mocked but yet some were prepared. You should have been there as my phone rang off the hook from these folks wanting me to tell their future, I rebuked them and told them that all that is in God's hands an no man can know them unless God wants to reveal it.

So lay off your so called worldly wisdom, as it doesn't work on me nor those who are of the true branch, grafted in and nourished by the very council of God, via Jesus Christ.

The AV is the preserved word of God and you would do well to read it 20 times in the next 5 years then come back and speak to me about what the entomology of the English word witchcraft or witch means or doesn't mean. The Bible is clear and you are clouded in your light and you should search and see how dark that light truly is.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

God is far more powerful than the minds of men

Apart from yours. I mean, YOU just KNOW!

All praise Chester, the all knowing one!

a reply to: ChesterJohn

No, Witch had a very specific meaning. It was co-opted to mean something else. If you understood the etymology, and the cultures (Germanic Indo-Europeans) you would understand. But you don't. You don't understand the power of language. I almost wonder what mutation to your FOXP2 you carry

You confuse the animistic practices of various aboriginal peoples, with the Germanic meaning.

So you claim to have practiced (as a youth) witchcraft. You will of course be able to recount your lineage to me. You mention English witchcraft, which clearly means you are talking about the British Traditional Witchcraft family of paganism. Or you are pulling from an orifice other than that which evolution has given you to communicate with. You are pretty much lying at this point. Because I can confirm any lineage you claim to have been initiated in. Oh and if you were not initiated, it does not count


But look, you just reverted claiming your gnoses are facts. Sorry but your AV bible is in your belief, the preserved word of your Deity.

Again I've read it. I've read several other versions, and other faiths books. I belong to a mystery tradtion, not a revealed one. QED I'm not impressed with your illogical dogma.

Oh and it still remains you threaten people here quite regularly.