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No actually... John of Patmos authored revelation... the idea that Jesus was the author is just Christian Dogma...
originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Akragon
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Actually the Father gave the revelations to Jesus who in turn gave the Revelation to His angel who in turn gave the Revelation to John who then penned the Revelation. So neither John or the angel were the authors but God and Jesus were the authors of Revelation. Being that God and Son are both one in image and likeness it can be understood as Jesus representing His Father.
ANGEL
Both the Hebrew mal·ʼakhʹ and the Greek agʹge·los literally mean “messenger.”
The Hebrew word ʼelo·himʹ (gods) appears to be from a root meaning “be strong.” ʼElo·himʹ is the plural of ʼelohʹah (god). Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Ge 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ʼElo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men.
When applying to Jehovah, ʼElo·himʹ is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. (Ge 1:1)
...
At Psalm 8:5, the angels are also referred to as ʼelo·himʹ, as is confirmed by Paul’s quotation of the passage at Hebrews 2:6-8. They are called benehʹ ha·ʼElo·himʹ, “sons of God” (KJ); “sons of the true God” (NW), at Genesis 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1. Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by Koehler and Baumgartner (1958), page 134, says: “(individual) divine beings, gods.” [whereislogic: not "false gods"] And page 51 says: “the (single) gods,” and it cites Genesis 6:2; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Hence, at Psalm 8:5 ʼelo·himʹ is rendered “angels” (LXX); “godlike ones” (NW).
[whereislogic: For those willing to take Pauls''s word for it regarding the "him" and the "you" I asked a question about. Hebrews 2:9 (between brackets is mine):
But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels [real gods, individual divine beings, not false gods, as per Ps.8:5 which Paul just quoted in verse 7], now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, so that by God’s undeserved kindness he might taste death for everyone. [so...who made Jesus a little lower than angels or gods/godlike ones again?]]
The word ʼelo·himʹ is also used when referring to idol gods. Sometimes this plural form means simply “gods.” (Ex 12:12; 20:23) At other times it is the plural of excellence and only one god (or goddess) is referred to. However, these gods were clearly not trinities.—1Sa 5:7b (Dagon); 1Ki 11:5 (“goddess” Ashtoreth); Da 1:2b (Marduk).
At Psalm 82:1, 6, ʼelo·himʹ is used of men, human judges in Israel. Jesus quoted from this Psalm at John 10:34, 35. They were gods in their capacity as representatives of and spokesmen for Jehovah. Similarly Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Ex 4:16, ftn; 7:1.
[whereislogic: John 17:7,8 (Jesus praying to his God Jehovah)
Now they have come to know that all the things you gave me are from you; 8 because I have given them the sayings that you gave me, and they have accepted them and have certainly come to know that I came as your representative, and they have believed that you sent me.]
...[switching source]
Certain teachings were greatly modified. For example, in the Bible, Jesus is called “the Logos,” meaning God’s “Word,” or Spokesman. (John 1:1-3, 14-18; Revelation 19:11-13) Very early on, this teaching was distorted by Justin, who like a philosopher played on the two possible meanings of the Greek word logos: “word” and “reason.” ...
Moreover, by forcing the tie between Jesus and the logos of Greek philosophy, which was closely linked with the person of God, the apologists, including Tertullian, embarked on a course that eventually led Christianity to the Trinity dogma.*
...[switching]
In many places in the Scriptures ʼElo·himʹ is also found preceded by the definite article ha. (Ge 5:22) Concerning the use of ha·ʼElo·himʹ, F. Zorell says: “In the Holy Scriptures especially the one true God, Jahve, is designated by this word; . . . ‘Jahve is the [one true] God’ De 4:35; 4:39; Jos 22:34; 2Sa 7:28; 1Ki 8:60 etc.”—Lexicon Hebraicum Veteris Testamenti, Rome, 1984, p. 54; brackets his.
The Greek Term. The usual Greek equivalent of ʼEl and ʼElo·himʹ in the Septuagint translation and the word for “God” or “god” in the Christian Greek Scriptures is the·osʹ.
The True God Jehovah. The true God is not a nameless God. His name is Jehovah. (De 6:4; Ps 83:18)
Text How does that work again? If Jesus is just passing on the revelations just like you described what the angel is doing, what is the difference that makes Jesus an author whereas the angel is not?
Ps.82:6 6 “I have said, ‘You are gods,* [Or “godlike ones.”] All of you are sons of the Most High.
yeah, I don't get why they are not getting the point. He is God and can manifest himself in any way he wants, as a pillar of fire and cloud, as an angel, as the Lord of Hosts, as a babe in a manger or as God on the throne.
Text Though i find it interesting that most trinitarians also use that same excuse as to why people don't agree that Jesus is God... they don't have the holy spirit the majority of the Christian world are trinitarian, and if you recall Jesus said... "the path is narrow and few find it"
Paul is credited with over half the NT and yet every bit of his information comes from revelation.
But the fact remains... The trinity isn't a biblical concept no matter how you try to work it out... Jesus didn't recognize a trinity... And neither did anyone else in the bible
originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Seede
Pretty much everything points to a trinity being non existant... But purely false doctrine
Text Why are Trinitarians misrepresenting the history around their favored dogma? Why is this person who is criticial regarding this issue still calling it a "Christian" Trinity in the title of his video (I think he's an atheist) when the Pagan (Babylonian and Egyptian > Greek) roots of this doctrine are so well-evidenced in historical research and documentation including highly respected Encyclopedias such as the Encyclopaedia Britannica?
originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: whereislogic
Text How does that work again? If Jesus is just passing on the revelations just like you described what the angel is doing, what is the difference that makes Jesus an author whereas the angel is not?
My understanding is that Jesus is resurrected [restored] to His formal celestial authority as the “Word of God” and that we use the name Jesus as to referencing His terrestrial appearance. He is not of angelic substance such as the celestial creation is but is the substance of His Spirit Father.
What is the origin of the myth?
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“The Council of Nicaea met on May 20, 325 [C.E.]. Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father.’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1970), Volume 6, page 386.
...
“The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Volume 14, page 299.
...
FACT:
The Trinitarian dogma is a late fourth-century invention
...
What does the Bible say?
“Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God’s right hand. ‘Look! I can see heaven thrown open,’ he said, ‘and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God.’”—Acts 7:55, 56, The New Jerusalem Bible.
What did this vision reveal? Filled with God’s active force, Stephen saw Jesus “standing at God’s right hand.” Clearly, then, Jesus did not become God again after his resurrection to heaven but, rather, a distinct spiritual being [whereislogic: a god/heavenly being/spirit (being)].
...
The dogma that Constantine championed was intended to put an end to dissensions within the fourth-century Church. However, it actually raised another issue: Was Mary, the woman who bore Jesus, “the Mother of God”?
Much of the debate hinged on the difference between being "born" or "created" and being "begotten". Arians saw these as essentially the same; followers of Alexander did not. The exact meaning of many of the words used in the debates at Nicaea were still unclear to speakers of other languages. Greek words like "essence" (ousia), "substance" (hypostasis), "nature" (physis), "person" (prosopon) bore a variety of meanings drawn from pre-Christian philosophers,...
John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.
Ancient Babylonian religious concepts and practices are found in religions worldwide
“The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato’s] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.
“Egypt, Persia, and Greece felt the influence of the Babylonian religion . . . The strong admixture of Semitic elements both in early Greek mythology and in Grecian cults is now so generally admitted by scholars as to require no further comment. These Semitic elements are to a large extent more specifically Babylonian.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., pp. 699, 700.
Their gods: There were triads of gods, and among their divinities were those representing various forces of nature and ones that exercised special influence in certain activities of mankind. (Babylonian and Assyrian Religion, Norman, Okla.; 1963, S. H. Hooke, pp. 14-40
At Psalm 82:1, 6, ʼelo·himʹ is used of men, human judges in Israel. Jesus quoted from this Psalm at John 10:34, 35. They were gods in their capacity as representatives of and spokesmen for Jehovah. Similarly Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Ex 4:16, ftn; 7:1.
[whereislogic: John 17:7,8 (Jesus praying to his God Jehovah)
Now they have come to know that all the things you gave me are from you; 8 because I have given them the sayings that you gave me, and they have accepted them and have certainly come to know that I came as your representative, and they have believed that you sent me.]
...[switching source]
Certain teachings were greatly modified. For example, in the Bible, Jesus is called “the Logos,” meaning God’s “Word,” or Spokesman. (John 1:1-3, 14-18; Revelation 19:11-13) Very early on, this teaching was distorted by Justin, who like a philosopher played on the two possible meanings of the Greek word logos: “word” and “reason.” ...
Moreover, by forcing the tie between Jesus and the logos of Greek philosophy, which was closely linked with the person of God, the apologists, including Tertullian, embarked on a course that eventually led Christianity to the Trinity dogma.*
...
The True God Jehovah. The true God is not a nameless God. His name is Jehovah. (De 6:4; Ps 83:18)
John 10:26-36
26 But you do not believe, because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against* [Or “to.”] whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me* [Or “of him.”] whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
Who's the "I" in the quotation Jesus uses above after "written in your Law"? Who is "he" in the next sentence of Jesus? Is anyone here familiar with the concept of distinguishing between different individuals by the usages of "he", "you", "me", "him", "I", "your", etc.? The concepts of giving and receiving stuff, or a sender and someone who was sent? Why does Jesus not say at the end there that he is God but instead "I am God's Son"?
Ps.82:6
6 “I have said, ‘You are gods,* [Or “godlike ones.”]
All of you are sons of the Most High.
...
1 God takes his place in the divine assembly;* [Or “in the assembly of the Divine One.”]
In the middle of the gods* [Or “godlike ones.”] he judges:
So having covered all that (both comments)...
The Bible’s Viewpoint
Does God Change?
ANTHROPOLOGIST George Dorsey described the God of the “Old Testament” as “a savage God.” He added: “Yahweh is . . . utterly unlovely. He is the God of plunderers, of torturers, of warriors, of conquest.” Others have reached similar conclusions regarding the God of the “Old Testament”—Yahweh, or Jehovah. Thus, some today wonder whether Jehovah was in fact a cruel God who eventually changed his character to become the loving and merciful God of the “New Testament.”
Such an idea about the God of the Bible is not new. It was first propounded by Marcion, a semi-Gnostic of the second century C.E. Marcion repudiated the God of the “Old Testament.” He considered that God to be violent and vindictive, a tyrant who offered material rewards to those worshiping him. On the other hand, Marcion described the “New Testament” God—as revealed through Jesus Christ—as a perfect God, a God of pure love and mercy, of graciousness and forgiveness.
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