List of early writers who could have mentioned Jesus

Greetings Ryan,

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
By the by, i have no idea why people continue to post silly topics such as these. If you dont believe in Christianity then you may bite on this, but that is all that would bite on this. Do you actually believe that you are going to get a christian to believe, especially since the facts do back them, that Jesus didn't exist. Ridiculous. Oh yeah, why would Jesus' brother, James, write about him if he was non-existant. Didn't James get stoned to death for believing his word. Are you really gonna tell me that James decided that it was okay to die for a fake brother?

No,
it is clear that most Christians such as you will never be convinced by any amount of evidence - you have made you mind up based on faith, no amount of facts will change your mind.

I am writing for those people who are actually interested in finding out for themselves.


James?

The letter of James is NOT by the brother of Jesus.

You have NEVER READ the epistle of James, have you Ryan?

James says NOTHING about Jesus, what-so-ever !
It only mentions the name "Jesus Christ" twice, without giving any details about him at all (just the typical CHristian refrence to faith in Christ etc.)

How could the alleged brother of Jesus -
* NOT mention ANYTHING about Jesus
* NOT mention he is the brother of Jesus

James mentions forbearance under suffering - but uses the example of Job - NOT JESUS !
This is clear evidence that the writer of the epistle of James knew NOTHING about Jesus.


Ryan -
YOU claim James wrote about Jesus,
but you don't even seem to know that the epistle of James does NOT say ANYTHING about Jesus - nothing, nada, zip, zero !

Clear and present evidence that you never bother to check any facts, you just preach what your priest told you.


Come on Ryan -
put up or shut up !

What did James "write about Jesus" ?

Produce your evidence,
or admit you are wrong.


Those who wish to check the facts might like to start here :
www.earlychristianwritings.com...


Is there anyone here prepared to actually READ the epistle of James to see if he says anything about Jesus?


Iasion


[edit on 2-3-2005 by Iasion]

Originally posted by Iasion


Clear and present evidence that you never bother to check any facts, you just preach what your priest told you.

Dang it Iasion...stop confusing them with the truth!

Greetings LadyV

Thanks for your reply :-)

Originally posted by LadyV
Dang it Iasion...stop confusing them with the truth!

Perhaps YOU would be prepared to have a quick read through James to see if Ryan's claim is correct?

It would be great to have a rational discussion based on facts which we can all check - I thought that's what this site was all about.


Iasion

Christianity arose out of Isreal by fellow Jews. These Jews were persecuted at the beginning, If Jesus didn't exhist why this sudden change, why risk death for someone who never exhisted. The fact that Christianity exhists is proof of Jesus.

Jesus was a preacher in a small nation. Ceaser was King almost throughout that hemisphere. he was a dominant and feared man. Of course he will be documented. But so was Jesus. Why put stock in a writing of other importance. For every evidence you can find against Jesus there is evidence for him. Its that you look for evidence against him. You should ask yourself why you have such passion in debunking a great being. And to say Jesus's brother never speaks of Jesus is proof he doesn't exhist is a joke. You just finished saying JESUS'S BROTHER. Hello!!!!!!!!

Greetings cjm,

why risk death for someone who never exhisted.

Yawn,
more preaching :-(

No-one risked death for belief in Jesus.

No-one was ever killed for refusing to recant about Jesus.

The stories of martyrdom are legends from long afterwards, there is no evidence for them.

Anyway,
people die for false beliefs all the time - so what?
(Suicide bombers, Heaven's Gate etc.)

The fact that Christianity exhists is proof of Jesus.

The fact that Hinduism exists is proof of Krishna ?

The fact that Greek mystery religions existed is proof of Demeter ?

The fact that Mormonism exists is proof of the magic plates ?

The fact that Zoroastrianism exists is proof of Zoroaster ?

The fact that Daoism exists is proof of Lao Tzu ?

The fact that Asatru exists is proof of Odin and Thor ?

The fact that Budhism exists is proof of Buddha and Kuanyin?

The fact that North American shamanism exists is proof of Coyote and Raven?

The fact that Australian aborigine's religion exists is proof of the Rainbow Serpent?


Is that what you believe?


Iasion

Iasion, i would like to continue this conversation with you about James, but first i must know are you saying that in the Letter of James in the Bible it doesn't mention Jesus' name once? If you honestly are contesting that i am going to tell you to go back and re-read that 5 page, which includes front and backs of a page, book then reevaluate what you just said. However, if you mean something entirely different just tell me.


On a side note, why are you trying to convince people who already DONT believe in Jesus? What is the point, do you think they will disagree with you? Oh and Btw... you may "believe" that it is only christians, and muslims that believe that Jesus existed, but i assure you, most others do, regardless of faith. They just don't believe he preformed miracles and such, which if you personally ask me, is the better road to take.

Originally posted by Iasion
Greetings cjm,

why risk death for someone who never exhisted.

Yawn,
more preaching :-(

No-one risked death for belief in Jesus.

No-one was ever killed for refusing to recant about Jesus.

The stories of martyrdom are legends from long afterwards, there is no evidence for them.

Anyway,
people die for false beliefs all the time - so what?
(Suicide bombers, Heaven's Gate etc.)

The fact that Christianity exhists is proof of Jesus.

The fact that Hinduism exists is proof of Krishna ?

The fact that Greek mystery religions existed is proof of Demeter ?

The fact that Mormonism exists is proof of the magic plates ?

The fact that Zoroastrianism exists is proof of Zoroaster ?

The fact that Daoism exists is proof of Lao Tzu ?

The fact that Asatru exists is proof of Odin and Thor ?

The fact that Budhism exists is proof of Buddha and Kuanyin?

The fact that North American shamanism exists is proof of Coyote and Raven?

The fact that Australian aborigine's religion exists is proof of the Rainbow Serpent?


Is that what you believe?


Iasion

wow... sounds like you are really stuck on what you want to believe as opposed to the truth. I'm not talking about Jesus here, just the fact that you are denying that people were killed as a result of believing in Jesus. By killed i mean exactly as the other guy said it. The best part is you compare the people who were stoned for their beliefs in The Christ to people who came up with a religion thousands of years ago and faced absolutely no persecution, and imminent death for their beliefs. These people risked their lives to spread the word of Jesus, AND THEY KNEW IT! Dying for a belief is different then dying for a man that you made up yourself! I am not saying a made up God in the context that you think he is made up, i am saying that the apostles wouldn't choose to die for someone they personally made up.

Seriously though, if you believe Jesus didn't exist, pardon my language, but why do you have such a Hard on for it? Fine believe it, but don't go, how did you so kindly tell us, oh right, Preaching it! I will respect the fact that you don't believe in Jesus but what i won't respect is you coming in here and telling me i am wrong and arrogant for believing in something that, frankly, i know i am right about! But beyond whose right and wrong, if you dont want to hear me preach then you don't preach yourself, and better yet, dont go insulting an entire religion because you think you can prove something that no one else in the world has been able to prove, oh and guess what, THEY WONT BE ABLE TO PROVE IT, EVER!

www.answers.com...

Contemporary non-Christian sources
Of the secular commentators living within memory of Jesus, from the evidence of their surviving works (which still survive in significantly high number to fill hundreds of volumes of text) only 6 are claimed to have written anything relating to Jesus - Pliny the Younger, Josephus, Suetonius, Philo, Lucian, and Tacitus. Lucian wrote a satire demonstrating the existence of Christians but condemning them as easily led fools, whereas Pliny the Younger wrote the same opinion in prose. Scholars draw on Josephus' mention of Jesus, and mention of early Christians in Suetonius and Tacitus. Both John the Baptist and James the Just are also documented in Josephus. The Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus also makes a mention (in a passage in the Annals written in 115 CE), but merely echoes popular opinion about Jesus, having no independent source of information.

I was suprised to read that Herod wrote about Jesus.

I have seen Pontius Pilates letters to Rome discussing Jesus.


When Philo wrote about the 'the Logos', he was referring to Jesus.

[edit on 3-3-2005 by BobDylan]

Originally posted by BobDylan
'Seriously though, if you believe Jesus didn't exist, pardon my language, but why do you have such a Hard on for it? Fine believe it, but don't go, how did you so kindly tell us, oh right, Preaching it! I will respect the fact that you don't believe in Jesus but what i won't respect is you coming in here and telling me i am wrong and arrogant for believing in something that, frankly, i know i am right about! But beyond whose right and wrong, if you dont want to hear me preach then you don't preach yourself, and better yet, dont go insulting an entire religion because you think you can prove something that no one else in the world has been able to prove, oh and guess what, THEY WONT BE ABLE TO PROVE IT, EVER!'

The above quote is just one snippet of many that proves your blind ignorance Ryanp55 but I have to thankyou for inspiring me to make my first post after a year of lurking, if it hadn't have been for your rude tone and obvious arrogance I may never have taken the time.

Iasion kindly asked you on many occasions to disprove her theory and you have failed on every level and not only that but you have resorted to petty insults and idiocy.

I can only assume you a Christian ( but I could be wrong) and if that is the case then let's be honest, you are already blinded by faith and ANY arguement that anyone puts forward for the non existence of Jesus Christ is going to go in one ear and out of the other.

There are very few solid facts in and information about what occured in a Jewish backwater 2000 years ago is bound to be sketchy.

I myself am unsure about the existence of Jesus and I don't think it really matters if he did or he didn't because any idea of who the man Truely was has been lost and all that is left is a blown up exaguration of "alleged" events that the Western world likes to call the "Bible".

Using the Bible to prove Jesus existed is without a doubt a ridiculous, even laughable pastime. Scriptures written by christians carry no weight what so ever as they where written and designed to convert, preach and inform the wider world about the glory and righteousness of Jesus, the Virgin child, Son of God, performer of Miracles and Selfless Martyr.

It's a brilliant idea for poor and deprived people to take on board, Theri lives may be horrible and they may be starving but if they all be good little christians and not rock the social boat they will be rewarded with a place in heaven...a place were nobody is sick or hungry..a place were nobody dies.

It's like a scientific formula for social control and I do respect it for it's sheer Audacity and the fact that such a simple idea spread like Black Death in a Brothel.

We could argue these points all day of course but just to throw a few at you Ryanp555:

Let's say Jesus did exist, do you really think he was the son of God?

Did a God up in Heaven ( It seems so silly writing that) impreganate a Jewish Virgin fully aware that his "Son" would grow up to be the "Saviour" of mankind?

You may say " Well it doesn't really matter if he was the Son of God or not nor does it matter he performed the miracles and deeds that have been attributted to him....at the end of the day....it''s the message that counts" (groan)

Well to all Christians out there, I'm sorry but it does matter...Your whole relgion is based on a book, a written document that was scribed by followers of your faith and yet increasingly ( and to cover there own backs) Christians say " Well that part of the bible is meant to be symbolic" and they pick and choose which parts of the bible they believe and which parts they discount.

HOW IN THE NAME OF ODINS BEARD CAN YOU DO THAT??

You can't pick and choose which words or verses apply, ALL OF IT APPLIES OR NONE OF IT DOES!!

Hell, somepeople beleive that the Bible was actually the word of god himself and the writers were merely mediums for his holy hand writing!!

I know I may not have put across a very balanced arguement but I've debated this so many times that it gets on my nerves, but I don't see how a person who calls himself intelligent and knowlegable cannot see through the whole concept of chritianity.

I agree with it's better principles, Love one an other and try to be good whenever possible but if we're honest most relgions preach that becuase thats essentially what the people at large want from their faith.

I grew up attending methodist church, did bible readings and went to Sunday school...No one in the Church has never done me any harm, I wasn't abused by a Vicar and I've never tripped over a Copy of the King James and broke my leg. My opinion comes from a basis of research but most of all common sense and anyone out there who comes forward and says "Well at the end of the day It's a question of faith...." I will lose respect for imediately..

Faith was designed so you couldn't argue with it and it could also be said that people who claim to have Faith are choosing to be ignorant becuase they feel comfortable in their own delusions and won't tolerate them being exposed.

It's 2005 for Christs sake....and we have people in this world who still believe it was created 7 thousand years ago, That Gods put Dinosaur bones in the ground to test out faith and an ex polish goalkeeper is Gods representative on earth and the spokesman for over a billion.

Time for people to wake up I think

[edit on 3-3-2005 by BobDylan]

[edit on 3-3-2005 by BobDylan]

[edit on 3-3-2005 by BobDylan]

``

nice post BobDylan
~~~~~~~~~~~~

i was involved with this meme, and i'll post it anyways

RazorDragon3000: Jesus was just another man. Who was
turned into a symbol that probably does not even resemble the man.

Iasion:
Thats the whole point-
Paul created Iesous Christos,
Then the G.Mark literature was based on him,
Then the two wars and a century of troubles,
some people started beleiving Jesus was historical.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I also read where the early Christian cult was viewed as being just
'Magical superstition' by the pagan Romans and was tolerated at first.

Then persecutions came...commenced by Nero..(equivelent of PatriotAct?)
the 'christians' spiritual faith with its high minded, moralistic aspirations,
believed it must endure the beastal attacks by the darker, baser human
drives...practiced under Roman authority as the societal 'norm'

to wit:

'God made mans psychology so that the more difficult an accomplishment,
the more satisfaction there is in doing it.
God then created the world so that it would present man with
the greatest possible challenge'

also this: 'Reward is according to suffering'

source: www.aish.com/The_Essence_of_Mankind.asp

**These early church 'cultists', holding to what was called 'Magical superstitions'->
did not martyr because of a Jesus or Iesous or et al,
They, 'individually' became also 'Annointed Ones' (Christians)
...following an 'Ideal'-a 'concept of spirit'...
not a physical man
(IMHO)
_-_

personally, i would find it fitting, that after the anticipated catastrophe
or Armageddon or Gog-Magog, etc
That a DVD or merely fragments of "The Life of Brian" might
survive to become the 'new' epistemology.......
whoa dude, dude-ettes

I was on-track for it. I did the research, I did the labs, I did the work.

I could have discovered a cure for cancer! This was my goal since cancer is a form of DNA gone wild.

I could have been rich and run for office! Thereby representing a large group of people and filling those blasted potholes on all the back roads. And from there...

I could have been president! Then we'd have perscription medicine reform, a retirement plan that makes sense for those 'in the middle' of social security and 401k investment plans. I could have eliminated the national deficit and promoted exporting trade and importing jobs.

I'd love to stay and talk about all the things I could have done but despite that, one fact will remain...

I DIDN'T!

[edit on 3-3-2005 by saint4God]

Greetings again Ryan,

A quick thanks to RANT for unlocking this, a series of oversights anfd misunderstandings have been sorted out :-)

A special thank you to Bob Dylan for coming out of "retirement" and saying his piece. I appreciate your comments and am encouraged to continue debating - I always liked Bob Dylan, he was a gadfly who said it like it was :-)

Iasion, i would like to continue this conversation with you about James, but first i must know are you saying that in the Letter of James in the Bible it doesn't mention Jesus' name once? If you honestly are contesting that i am going to tell you to go back and re-read that 5 page, which includes front and backs of a page, book then reevaluate what you just said. However, if you mean something entirely different just tell me.

Pardon ?!
that's exactly the opposite of what I said !
I made it quite clear, let me quote my earlier post to remind you :

James says NOTHING about Jesus, what-so-ever !
It only mentions the name "Jesus Christ" twice, without giving any details about him at all (just the typical CHristian refrence to faith in Christ etc.)

I clearly stated that James mentions the name "Jesus Christ" twice,
but
never mentioned anything ABOUT Jesus.
Yet you charge me with saying the opposite?
May I suggest you read more carefully?

This all came about because you claimed that Jesus' brother James "wrote about Jesus".

But as I have pointed out numerous times -
James did NOT write ANYTHING "about Jesus".

Perhaps the reason you again fail to cite anything "about Jesus" from the epistle of James is because you actually HAVE read the epistle and were shocked to find nothing about Jesus in it at all, and now try to brush the issue away, hoping few readers will check the document for themselves.

I HAVE read the epistle of James - here are the 2 mentions of the word "Jesus" :

1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes
which are in the Dispersion: Greetings.

The introduction of the letter, mentions he is a "servant" of God and of Lord Jesus Christ (ie. a typical faithful phrase invoking their highest names) - totally FAILS to mention he is brother to Jesus.

2:1 My brothers, don't hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory with
partiality.

Another faithful phrase telling us nothing about Jesus. No mention James is his brother.


What DON'T we see in James

NO mention of Jesus' family at all - NO Mary or Joseph or siblings.
NO mention of the birth stories - NO Bethlehem, Nazareth, Magi, Herod, the flight...
NO mention of teachings Jesus - NO sermon, Lord's prayer, food regulations
NO mention of miracles - NO Lazarus, feeding the multitude, healing the sick...
NO mention of any Gospel event - NO Teaching at the Temple, Temple Cleansing, Triumphal Entry, Temptation, Baptism in Jordan etc, etc...
NO mention of the trial of Jesus - NO Pilate, Sanhedrin, Judas etc...
NO mention of the empty tomb, the crucifixion, the resurrection !!! hello?

I can not find a SINGLE PIECE of information "about Jesus" in the whole epistle of James.

From a person who was supposedly in Jesus' very family and probably would have experienced many of these events if they had really happened.


Even when expected

Even worse, if you do read James, there are many places where you would expect him to mention Jesus or his teaching -

Chapter 1 talks about resisting temptation - NO mention of the temptation of Jesus !

Chapter 2 starts like this in some versions - "do you .. really believe in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ?" (a different translation of the phrase which in the Greek goes something like this: "do not with partiality believe in Jesus Christ the glorious").

Here is James trying to convince them to believe in Jesus Christ, and he totally fails to even mention he knew Jesus, let alone was his brother - instead all he gives to try and prove Jesus is some preaching about the poor and the rich WITHOUT mentioning anything Jesus said about the poor.

James quotes "Love Thy Neighbour as Thyself" - but NOT from Jesus, just "scripture".

James preaches about adultery - NO mention of Jesus' teachings.

James argues that faith without works is useless - when he provides examples, it's from the OT - Abraham, Rahab - NO mention of Jesus.

James reminds people not to curse or speak evil - NO mention of Jesus' teachings on that.

James preaches about suffering and patience - NO mention of Jesus as example, just Job and the prophets.

James talks about the church elders bringing healing and forgiving sins - NO mention of Jesus doing that.

James even invokes Elijah who was a "human being like us" - NO mention of Jesus !


James never knew any Jesus

In dozens of places, James preaches something that CRIES out for a mention of Jesus or his teachings - but it looks like James has never even HEARD of Jesus of Nazareth - just the risen Christ, a spiritual being.


Note that James uses the phrase "my brothers (and sisters)" DOZENS of times - NOT the slightest hint that HE is the brother of Jesus anywhere in the letter.


Apologists like Ryan seem unable to read the letter for comprehension, no matter how many times I ask Ryan to provide actual evidence, all he does is preach his beliefs. His failure to produce any evidence should make it clear.


There simply is NOTHING "about Jesus" in the letter of James.


Which supports the theory that there was no historical Jesus - along with the silence of all the other 1st century writers (no Christian writer shows ANY knowledge of Jesus of Nazareth until early-mid 2nd century, a century and two wars after the alleged events.)

Of course, its not even sure if James existed himself, the evidence is a bit shaky for him too (like Peter and the 12 who may not have been real figures either.)

Iasion

So,

Still can't find anything about Jesus in the epistle of James, Ryan ?

Iasion

Iasion, may I ask you a couple of sincere questions about this epistle:

did you read an English translation?

do you know who did the translation(s) and when?

The reason I'm asking is that the quotes you posted where "Jesus Christ" was mentioned seem like "drop-ins" - they don't seem to fit in with the text very well. I'm wondering if it's possible that even those scant references were really part of the original.

Anyway, excellent posts! If I had any more votes to give this month, you'd get one.

Yes! Wonderful reading, very interesting.

Voted Iasion

Really enjoyable.

lol at Ryan...what you said on the first page isn't called ignorance, its the definition of it

Originally posted by Iasion

Lets not forget a few others from that time who certainly wrote about Him

Many people wrote about Sherlock Holmes too - so?

This rather gives the game away, doesn't it? -- all these people who 'must' have mentioned this obscure figure but didn't: they are evidence; but those who do mention him are not. Isn't this the stuff of bias?

(Various unhistorical assertions about the NT)

These are the conclusions of modern NT scholars (e.g. Brown, Metzger etc.)

I have some doubts about this. But in any case I prefer arguments from evidence, myself, rather than appeals to supposed authority. On any subject of political or religious controversy, the opinions of scholars are only those of the establishment of the day. It's not so long ago that the 'consensus of modern scholars' was that John was written in the second century.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Originally posted by Iasion
Greetings Ryan,

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
By the by, i have no idea why people continue to post silly topics such as these. If you dont believe in Christianity then you may bite on this, but that is all that would bite on this. Do you actually believe that you are going to get a christian to believe, especially since the facts do back them, that Jesus didn't exist. Ridiculous. Oh yeah, why would Jesus' brother, James, write about him if he was non-existant. Didn't James get stoned to death for believing his word. Are you really gonna tell me that James decided that it was okay to die for a fake brother?

No,
it is clear that most Christians such as you will never be convinced by any amount of evidence - you have made you mind up based on faith, no amount of facts will change your mind.

Since you posted that only writers who say nothing about Jesus are evidence, I'm afraid this is your position, not Ryan's.

James? The letter of James is NOT by the brother of Jesus.

The evidence is otherwise. Your argument to the contrary? :--

.... James says NOTHING about Jesus, what-so-ever !
It only mentions the name "Jesus Christ" twice, without giving any details about him at all (just the typical CHristian refrence to faith in Christ etc.)

How could the alleged brother of Jesus -
* NOT mention ANYTHING about Jesus
* NOT mention he is the brother of Jesus

James mentions forbearance under suffering - but uses the example of Job - NOT JESUS !
This is clear evidence that the writer of the epistle of James knew NOTHING about Jesus.

So, your argument is purely based on you inventing some expectations, and since you make sure they aren't fulfilled, then arguing that this proves your case?

Pardon me, but I can't take that seriously. That method would fail on anything.

Clear and present evidence that you never bother to check any facts, you just preach what your priest told you.

Projection noted.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Today we have the internet and the printing press...

How manywriters mention susan anthony?
Now many writers mention the starter of anything new?
It seems that hardly anyone writes bout anything until its past tense.

I think this whole thing is a straw man. He sets up and then knocks down his OWN creation.

How many writers are there in the bible? Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, John of Revelation, James, Jude, The guys who wrote for paul (tim? barny?) , ...

How many indeed.
They did not get together and write those.
Who wrote acts?
These were put into one book later.

To those who accept him, Jesus is life. To those who reject, the gospel tells of your death.

YOU are in denial. People always go into denial when they are sick and dying.
What a shame