what is a gypsy?

sorry to disapoint you, but the majority of people in Eastern Europe don't have a glorious opinion of them (and they are the ones who interact with the gypsies daily)

You don't dissappint me, the situation does. I know all too well how Europeans treat Gypsies, I've heard first hand accounts, been told stories by my family, heard from other sources in Hungary and Germany..they get the sharp end of the stick every time...

I know the reality fairy..what I rail against is those who seek to cement this prejudice in the realm of acceptable fact.

Bigotry is neither acceptable, nor imutable.

It will never change if people continue to believe it can't.

You think so? Well then why did migrate there if it's so bad for them?
Europe would be happy if they went back to the place they came from.

They migrated because it was worse everywhere else. They continue to migrate because they have no interest in being a part of your 'civilization' as it's called. Just because it's clean, doesn't make it better.

They are one of the few groups of people left on the face of the earth who need make no apologies. All they ever wanted was to survive. They've never engaged in genocide, never conquered, never razed, never levelled a city because they wanted its resources...

If the world was as 'uncivilized' as the gypsies, we'd all be better off, mark my words.

[edit on 27-5-2005 by WyrdeOne]

The 'gypsies' are said to be immigrants, but, then again, only the basque are native to europe anyway, so its all pretty pointless. The germans came from outside europe, the greeks, the hungarians, the slavs, everyone really. THe gypsies have just as much claim to existence as the French or the Italians or anyone else. The term 'gypsy' is pretty meaningless anyway, since almost any 'poor minority' group could've been called gypsies at certain times in european history.

And the bigoted comments are unquestionably bigoted, immigrants are somehow more 'wrong' if they are lazy and dependant on the welfare state? Why single out any group at all if the concern is dependancy? This is the same sort of logic that applied in the US when people hate 'blacks' because they're 'lazy, shifty, poor and dirty', they'd defend it by saying 'but they are all those things, i don't hate them because they are black'. B/S.

If one wants to talk about social conditions, and how it relates to the perception of gypsies and how they can and cannot interact as a part of society, go ahead, but any comments such as 'gypsies are liars and crooks' is getting warns, just as it woudl for any ethnic group.

Quote from OOPS:

I am Gypsy so what? If I go and make a thread, What is a White person or What is a black person, it's really pointless and stupid.

i respect your replies, i would be defending my culture too, if somebody attacked it, but i wouldn't deny what is true and happened.

And anyone that comes in and shares their negative experiences like you in the way you did is racist, a bigot and not welcomed in a community that is based around education.

hmmm, you mean saying only positive stuff about something is educating someone. No. you need to get both sides of the story before you make a judgement and i believe the person who originally made the thread, wanted to learn about positive and negative too. i'm not lieing when i wrote what i wrote and i apologize if my comments sounded racist.

Maybe you cannot interpret the meaning of my sentances... odd...

I said anyone who puts out negative coments IN THE WAY you did...


You Generalized an Entire Continent and said they would like all the Gypsies to go away. This is not an educated statement.

We can talk about Negative aspects of human nature, but please, can you at all tell me one Negative aspect of human nature that applies to one race?

If you cannot, and you proceed to talk about one race and negative aspects of human nature you are singling out that race and making hence racist comments.


It's quite simple really... don't be a richard!

[edit on 27-5-2005 by 00PS]

I was told by my late grandmother that gypsys were cursed by Jesus because they made the spikes for crucifixion.
So I googled a little to see if there is some truth about her story and found this LINK

The myth, Pearson explains, is that when the Romans were preparing to crucify Jesus, they ordered a gypsy blacksmith to make four spikes out of gold. Three were used in the crucifixion and the craftsman stole the fourth. There then came a divine edict in two parts: For stealing the spike, the blacksmith’s people were cursed to wander the earth forever. For saving His Son the pain of the fourth spike, however, God said that whatever his people could take was theirs.

Quite a Solomonian decision.

Here is another link that say about cursed gypsys. Click here

Cheers



[edit on 2-6-2005 by yanchek]

Originally posted by 00PS


You Generalized an Entire Continent and said they would like all the Gypsies to go away. This is not an educated statement.

We can talk about Negative aspects of human nature, but please, can you at all tell me one Negative aspect of human nature that applies to one race?

If you cannot, and you proceed to talk about one race and negative aspects of human nature you are singling out that race and making hence racist comments.

[edit on 27-5-2005 by 00PS]

The Gypsies are not a race, they're a culture. To say you don't like Gypsies isn't being a rascist. They are disliked around the world; they have no claims to an anscestral homeland, hence making them vagabonds. Only an American, or communist, would be so PC as to say leave the 'poor' gypsies alone, when the rest of the known world knows what they are like.

To have an ardent discussion about a culture, the pros and cons, is not bigotry. Many have something bad to say about the American culture, some of which is true, some not. But the difference is that Americans (or other well established cultures), aren't travelling around in mobile home caravans, pickpocketing their way to their next meals.

The Kurds are considered the 'gypsies' of the Middle-East. They claim parts of Turkey and Iraq as their own. And we know all the problems the Turks and Iraqis have had with them in the past.

The Gypsies are not a race, they're a culture. To say you don't like Gypsies isn't being a rascist. They are disliked around the world; they have no claims to an anscestral homeland, hence making them vagabonds. Only an American, or communist, would be so PC as to say leave the 'poor' gypsies alone, when the rest of the known world knows what they are like.

Creed is more accurate than culture...

It's not technically racist, but it is closeminded, bigoted, reinforces centuries-old stereotypes, and causes further mistrust between the parties involved...

You know, the Jews are disliked around the world too..many gypsies are/were jews, so it's not okay to incite hatred against jews, but it is okay to incite hatred against gypsies?

If you were to come on this thread and say # like "all jews skim their 10% off the top and have no regard for local customs" you'd be lambasted for blatant stereotyping..but when you say all gypsies are pickpockets and thieves, you think that's okay?

Is it dark in there, where you have your head?

I'm not a thief, and I've never picked a pocket. I guess that proves your whole freakin' world view anachronistic and prejudiced..doesn't it?

The rest of the world knows what 'they' are like? Does the rest of the world know what I am like as well? Does it know my mother? My granny? Are you saying my granny was a thief, because so help me god, I will put a curse on you...

See how foolish your line of reasoning is? You're obviously prejudiced against gypsies, and you justify that by saying, 'they're all bad, stupid communist Americans just can't see the truth because they're too liberal?'

Does that make sense to you?

Cause it sounds like utter tripe to me.

Originally posted by MickeyDee
Any body seen the UK film SNATCH by Guy Richie (Maddonas hubby)???

If not find a copy, that will show you what a Gypsi is!!!

nah micky, they're different mate,
that'd be irish travelers, during the irish fammon people were evicted from their farms by landlords,took to the road and never settled again.thats most of them but their has always been traveling clans in ireland,
same lifestyle,different ethnic group.


as for all the rest of this discussion, shame an you ALL.
there's really nice gypsys and really not very nice gypsy's, get over it,
honesty is not racism,so if you have a bad experiance, talk about the experiance, if you've been mugged by somone showing you a gypsy bad guys club identity card, tell me about that, if you don't have an actual real experiance with gypsys, if all you got to go on is a vague inkling that people of a certain ethnic origen are up to no good, take yourself off to the KKK website and stop bothering people that are trying to gain understanding of a different culture.



[edit on 2-6-2005 by pieman]

I dont really know what a Gypsy is, b ut my father always called me his gypsy

Originally posted by midnight_fairy
but i wouldn't deny what is true

Stating that gypsies are 'theives and poor' is not true tho. Yes there are poor gypsies. Yes there are theives who are gypsies. But thats irrelevant. One does not need to do anything in particular to be part of an ethnic group. By stating that gypsies are theives, you are not telling the truth, you are provacatively bashing a people, and moreso a people that have been systematically kept outside of the mainstream of european society and even hunted down and attempted to be exterminated.

i apologize if my comments sounded racist.

Your comments were racist, or at least bigoted. Whats it matter if the gypsies you've known haven't been good people???

yanchek
I was told by my late grandmother that gypsys were cursed by Jesus because they made the spikes for crucifixion.

This is a story used to justify hating and abusing an entire group of people.

is that when the Romans were preparing to crucify Jesus, they ordered a gypsy blacksmith to make four spikes out of gold

This, and the rest of the story, is what is called 'b/s'. The only account of the crucifixtion is the bible, no mention of gypsies. What undoubtedly happened here is that a group of people (you are slavic right, slovenian or some such and from the balkans right?) had to deal with these 'gypsies', who were 'foreign' and 'outsiders'. As allways happens, they were abused. This story was invented to justify it.
Its laughable. Gold nails? For some jewish upstart? The roman's wouldn't use gold nails for anything. And there weren't any gypsies in israel at the time. Fact is, no one knows where the gypsies are from. Some say they're from central asia, others from all the way in india (this is probably a story that means not much more than 'far far away') others that the word is a corruption of the word 'egyptian'. I'm willing to belive that they aren't from anywhere, that they came into europe in lots of different movements, like everyone else, and eventually, in europe, came to be identified as 'gypsies'. Such that any group that was sort of like them was called 'gypsy', sort of like how in enlgand the 'pikies' are often confused with gypsies and the like.

nathraq
Only an American, or communist, would be so PC as to say leave the 'poor' gypsies alone, when the rest of the known world knows what they are like.

No one knows what 'they' are like because a particular gypsy can be like anyone else. Its silly and absurd to suggest that they all behave the same way.

To have an ardent discussion about a culture, the pros and cons, is not bigotry

A 'discussion' about a culture is not whats being had here. All that anyone is saying is 'gypsies are dirty theives'.

pieman
that'd be irish travelers

The movie, for some reason, states that they're infact not irish. But of course thats a movie.

In all likelyhood, a 'gypsy' was just a word used to describe any group of people that was outside the mainstream and 'quasi-nomadic'. So lots of different groups became 'gypsies' to different people. The slavs come in and displace the population of a town, the original townspeople have to settle somewhere else, and they are considered 'gypsys' by everyone along the way. A group fo immigrants passes thru a valley, and they're gypsies. I also notice that the 'gypsy' culture is almost looked at and provides services like 'carnies', roving feasts and carnivals that come into a town, live out of mobil homes, and are generally looked down upon and distrusted by the actual townspeople. I strongly suspect that 'gypsys' are very much a dark ages equivalent of this, amoung other things. Hell, ina few hundred years, people might be having a discussion about 'the carnies' being an inferior ethnicity and culture.

Bottom line, to say that any group, such as an ethnicity, is characterised by certain traits and habits is the very definition of 'stero-typing'. Its wrong and ignorant.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne



I'm not a thief, and I've never picked a pocket. I guess that proves your whole freakin' world view anachronistic and prejudiced..doesn't it?

The rest of the world knows what 'they' are like? Does the rest of the world know what I am like as well? Does it know my mother? My granny? Are you saying my granny was a thief, because so help me god, I will put a curse on you...

Wyrdeone, if you try to put a curse on me, I will a.) shadowstep out of your range, b.) cast Dooming Darkness on you, followed by Boil Blood, Venom of the Snake, and continously lifedrain you with Spirit Tap. All the while my level 34 Pet is hitting you with his Summoned Blades of the Kedge....... grrrrrr..........TOO MUCH EVERQUEST!!! heh

peace man.

WyrdeOne,

My family is Hungarian and maybe I can help shed some light on this.
People dont hate gypsies because of their skin color, or where they came from, etc.
(Black people, chinese people, etc. are well respected, and also hold positions such as singers, doctors, etc.)

The fact is that there are to many isssues with the gypsies concerning robberies, killings, and misuse of free gifts from the gov. (i.e., the government has given them free housing and they rip off the wood floor to burn it at winter time because they dont want to work. See this is the issue...they get free housing and destroy it, while the Hungarians are working so the gypsies can have this house to destroy yet the Hungarians dont get a free house. Hard to understand unless you know the whole picture.)

Now we are not saying every gypsie is like this, because there are vary talented artist that have come from the gypsies...what we are trying to point out is that the majority of the problems are coming out from this group in Hungary. Yes some people are out right racist period...we are not racist at all just trying to help you understand their point of view.

Gods Peace

dalen



[edit on 2-6-2005 by dAlen]

This is teh same reasoning, same language practically, used in the US to note that blacks are uncivilized. I suspect its the same used in germany to talk about turks, and france to talk about mulsims.

Take an ethnic minority, push it out of the mainstream, 'disempower' it, and have predatory practices on them, and the result is that there's a lot of crime in their places of living, and a cutlure that reject the mainstream and authority and sort of trys to replace it.

Originally posted by Nygdan
This is a story used to justify hating and abusing an entire group of people

I hope that statement of yours wasn't targeted to insult my family because if that is the case you would look real funny when you'd suck my richard with no teeth.

This, and the rest of the story, is what is called 'b/s'. The only account of the crucifixtion is the bible, no mention of gypsies. What undoubtedly happened here is that a group of people (you are slavic right, slovenian or some such and from the balkans right?) had to deal with these 'gypsies', who were 'foreign' and 'outsiders'. As allways happens, they were abused. This story was invented to justify it.
Its laughable. Gold nails? For some jewish upstart? The roman's wouldn't use gold nails for anything. And there weren't any gypsies in israel at the time. Fact is, no one knows where the gypsies are from. Some say they're from central asia, others from all the way in india (this is probably a story that means not much more than 'far far away') others that the word is a corruption of the word 'egyptian'. I'm willing to belive that they aren't from anywhere, that they came into europe in lots of different movements, like everyone else, and eventually, in europe, came to be identified as 'gypsies'. Such that any group that was sort of like them was called 'gypsy', sort of like how in enlgand the 'pikies' are often confused with gypsies and the like.

Did you read the second link? Do you know what is Balkan (where it begins and where it ends)? What do you have against Slavs? In the Balkans we have a love-hate relationship with the gypsys. It's like in marriage. This is a place where a wide and mild Slavic soul merges with a Gypsys temperamet, emotions and passion for freedom.

Originally posted by yanchek
I hope that statement of yours wasn't targeted to insult my family because if that is the case you would look real funny when you'd suck my richard with no teeth.

Wow!

If there was EVER an inappropriate statement made on ATS, THAT was it!

sebatwerk
You said it buddy..you said it. That was so incredibly innapropriate..words failing..must resort..to emoticons...



Yanchek
I think you over-reacted just a tad. I'm the master of understatements by the way...

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
You said it buddy..you said it. That was so incredibly innapropriate..words failing..must resort..to emoticons...

I think a more appropriate emoticon would be:





[edit on 5-6-2005 by sebatwerk]

Mr Everquest you pose a question that I think didn't really get addressed.

Are the Rom a Race or a Culture. What are the Rom? Well just like Jews have have 2 types, Ashkenazi and the other... Gypsys have the 'other' breeds and the Rom.

I would most definately classify the Rom, a race, of Gyspy culture as being a people who are defined by a blood line - for centuries. IF this does not justify Race, what in your definition does?

Culture? Yes! Creed? Yes! Race? Of Course!!!

I don't have Gypsy culture, I don't have Gyspy creed, all I have are my Government Adoption Records that state my father is Gypsy, that and I don't look like any other American I've ever met and I've only met 1 other gypsy in my life and we really didn't look the same... Point is, I do believe the true Gypsy people are a Race, but if you want to claim this we need to discover the ethnicity then comes race. The Ethnic Rom people, Nomadic tribes people from the Punjab regions of India *the original GYPSY* are still a race today...

Clarifying... refute? expect rebuttal!

Ok my best mate is of Romanian gypsy descent and he grew up in the traditional nomadic way. Now he, like a lot of gypsies have settled down in houses. I live in an area where there are many of them that have done this, in fact thinking about it a lot of my friends/aquantences have some Romany blood.

A lot of the problems that exist today regarding gypsies are usually more to do with travellers than Romany's although saying that despite a wonderful culture and history the Romany community is not above breaking the law and is far from perfect. There is a perception that they regard themselves as distinct and beyond the law and to a certain extent that is true although there is more intergration these days with the gadje'sas they refer to house dwellers.

Romany's tend to refer to and regard travellers in much the same terms as house dwellers do so we're all a bit racist and to an extent we all invite the criticism's levelled at us. I'd like to see the gypsy community speak out about their more lawless members occasionally rather than close ranks and call persecution, as mine and a lot of peoples experience in the UK is that problems do exist albeit usually more with 'travellers' than Romany's.

I've heard that the level of discrimination in Eastern Europe is far, far more extreme than over here from a freind who spent time over there.



[edit on 5-6-2005 by ubermunche]

If you're mean to a Gypsy, or treat them like you would if you were smart, they will leave you alone, or at worst, curse you.

If you act nice towards them, and let down you guard, then they will leave you alone, or worst, steal from you.

And the reason Gypsies have a bad rap is actually legit for the most part.

I don't see why we should throw a blanket of tolerance over a part of society that is targeting us as its parasitic victim!!!