Are there repercussions for trying to remove history?

a reply to: network dude

Makes you wonder who pushed the political correctness programming to begin with, oh, wait just a minute ....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now it all makes sense.

Meet the first and second generations of brainwashed drones who are offended by everything! Theyre out there. In the news. In the streets. And some of them are living in your neighborhood.

Make it to the end and you will see that it ties in with the OP.

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: Alien Abduct

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: network dude

We own slaves today but we don't call them that, we call them migrant workers or immigrant labor.

Take them back home and set them free!

Whose going to pay for that? Even rounding up 'undocumented' workers is a game the corporations and Gubment agencies (like the INS) play, a scam to fool people like you.

Deportting millions of workers that pick your crops, butcher your meat and clean you Hotel rooms would create chaos. They just come back in, legal or not.

So you obviously interpret these people as slaves, you know what? I agree with you in a sense. They are (at least the ones you are speaking of) illegal or even non illegal workers that make what we would consider 'slave wages'. And I agree with that.

My solution would not be to remove all of them (the illegal ones) at once, because therefore it would take too many resources and as such is impractical as far as the current resources available. So therefore a 'softer approach '(slower approach) would be more appropriate.

But the illegal people that are here working, yes I'm talking about the ones that are here illegally but are actually working TRADE JOBS meaning, working jobs like drywall, electrical, plumbing, carpentry, siding/ stucco, painting.. you get the picture. These are jobs that should pay a good wage like $60k to$150k a year.

The problem is that these "slaves" ( and I am mostly referring to the illegal ones) are working for less and for the same work. This is what one would call 'cut throat '.

Further, this illegal worker base is taking jobs that would otherwise be taken up with the native population of the U.S. Albeit for more money.

Let me just explain this within the basis of basic economics. What I am about to explain is actually going to agree with most of what you said. Jose comes here illegally, he obtains illegal documents in order to obtain a job 'legally '. The employer 'Bill' knows this but understands that as long as Jose presents identity that can be used for tax purposes he need not worry about the legal status of Jose. The reason is because Bill knows Jose will show up everyday, he will learn quick, he will work hard, he won't demand sick pay, vacation, any sort of health insurance,won't complain about not being paid overtime and has several other friends that are willing to go along with the scam. All for the low low price of and huge profits of... Bill is likely to never get caught.

You see this is what brings down the pay rates for jobs that ARE NOT menial jobs. What about the illegals that are working in plumbing, electrical, painting or carpentry?

I don't blame Jose, I blame Bill. I would seriously do the same if I was Jose. But the point is that this situation is hurting the working man of the U.S.. and the sad fact is as you have pointed out... Those big boy corporations are passing the laws through corrupt government officials by way of bribes in the name of lobbying. I know the game.

And you are right we are being played by those powerful corps and politicians....and this is unfortunately only just one of the games they play.


There is a lot of protests going on at the moment as far as past slave advocates and past slave owners.....

"First of all, in this specific instance, the individual concerned, according to the element of his legend which speaks to his intention to free those he purchased, thereby derailing the intentional and institutional racism which informed his period of history, is to be commended, rather than condemned, as any person reading his history would reasonably attest, provided they had sufficient intellect to actually comprehend the documents detailing his life."

-TrueBrit

Okay, let's look at this one because it IS a case of "erased history."

originally posted by: network dude
Cumberland schools cancel event with Lafayette mascot over slavery
www.wral.com...

FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — Cumberland County’s interim schools superintendent this week canceled a ribbon-cutting ceremony for a school environmental initiative because the program’s mascot, Revolutionary War hero the Marquis de Lafayette, owned slaves. 35 “I think in lieu of what’s going on around the nation and the sensitivity to issues concerning the history of slavery in the country, there was concern there that it may be offensive to some members of our community,” Superintendent Tim Kinlaw said, citing recent protests and violence surrounding Confederate Civil War monuments. Biographers say Lafayette, a Frenchman who was a major general in the Continental Army, was an abolitionist who purchased slaves with the intent of freeing them. In 1783, Fayetteville was the first of several towns in America to be named for him, and he visited with fanfare in 1825. Lafayette died in 1834, 27 years before the Civil War.

With all the political correctness of removing anything that had anything to do with slavery, we have this. A school function that used a historical figure as a mascot. Because this person was associated with slavery, he can't be used for this anymore. But what exactly were his ties to slavery? He was an abolitionist who bought slaves so he could free them. Sounds like a horrible guy. His history needs to be buried and never see the light of day./sarc.

Why ins't this celebrated instead of hidden due to "feelings"? It's only a matter of time before the idiots realize that towns bear the names of civil war generals. They will be next on the chopping block.

And let me begin with an item that you may not be familiar with: "In keeping with this philosophy, Lafayette advocated for the end of slavery." (from Lafayette's biography on Wikipedia)

So... erased history, then:
* with a de-emphasis on the importance of higher education (college, etc) there is more of a focus on the trades and economy. This means a lot of things aren't taught.
* with a focus on "teaching to the exam", teachers are spending part of the school year just trying to get kids to pass an exam rather than covering materials that they might have before.
* certain things get dropped... like the whole French Revolution and the interaction of various civil war heroes.

So he's essentially been erased from our history. And you are seeing the impact of it ("who's this guy, why should we have a foreigner represent us, wasn't he pro-slavery, didn't he own slaves")

There's a second dynamic here involving semiotics (signs and images):
* Lafayette is a foreigner and a soldier
* colonial soldiers are associated with the "don't tread on me" flag and the "come and get it" flag
* both those flags are used by 2nd amendment rights folks
* they're also used by white nationalists

When we don't teach history (and science... and when teachers are poorly paid and poorly educated), it is easy for the average person who reads less than 5 books a year (but only reads internet sites and watches Youtube) to make a false association that "colonial soldier=nationalists=Ugly Americans."

So his history has been erased and now he's just a meaningless piece of art that may be a focal point for nationalist rallies and neo-nazi rallies.

It's kind of a shame. He's a fascinating figure. But when his history is erased he simply becomes a symbol of whatever anyone wants him to be.

a reply to: network dude

network dude,

If you have a very close look at my post, you will note that I made the point that the important thing is how much social change has occurred between the events commemorated, and the erection of the statuary commemorating them. In the case of Nelson, in the relatively short time between his death, and the erection of statuary to commemorate him, very little social change had occurred, such that his victories and death had the same importance to the people at the time of its erection, as they did at the time of his death.

However, certainly in the case of the erection of the Lee and Jackson monument, this is simply not the case. Again, its not about the number of years passed, but the amount of social and political change that passes between two events. Again, the situation in the 1940s, when the statue in question was erected, was that America had gone to war against the fascist movements which comprised the Axis powers, meaning that it should have been pretty damned clear to anyone with a lick of sense, that putting up statues to commemorate the lives and acts of people who fought to maintain slavery, which in and of itself is a racist institution, was inappropriate, and arguably a sincerely unpatriotic thing to do, regardless of whatever other reasons they might have had for opposing the north.

a reply to: Alien Abduct

I don't blame Jose, I blame Bill.

Agreed. The companies that hire and look the other way while they reap more rewards, are the problem. Large corporations (like Apple) move their operations overseas where they can really exploit the slave work force. Then build a super headquarters back here, importing an army of workers on temporary visas instead of hiring from the local population.

a reply to: TonyS

I'm all for equality.
Equal treatment, equal opportunity.
Equality of outcomes is totalitarianism parading itself around as social justice, which is theft, redistribution and denying equality to some so that others can take advantage.
That isn't Liberty or freedom but Socialism.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I wonder though, do you truly understand the perspective from a US southerner's angle? have you ever thought about what people from here think, or is that not important?

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: TrueBrit

I wonder though, do you truly understand the perspective from a US southerner's angle? have you ever thought about what people from here think, or is that not important?

Actually, yes he does. They have been through similar things in the British Isles.

And he's correct... the statues in general are "replacement history" by a hegemony and are used as a rallying point ("Southern Culture") rather than as information ("depiction of the surrender of Lee" as an example.) We Southerners have been given an artificial history that does a lot of hand-wavium over unpleasantness like slavery and Jim Crow laws. Southern culture denigrates Mexicans - without acknowledging that they're the original owners of much of the land here in the Southwest and that their ancestors are Native Americans who are now speaking Spanish.

a reply to: network dude


Of course I have thought about these things, network dude.

It would be callous and foolish to fail to do so, given the emotional connection that people pretty much ANYWHERE have with their ancestry and their history.

And goodness knows, I appreciate and have a respect for my nations history, because my nations history teaches me lessons about how to go forward. There are many of those lessons, like:

"In all things, at all times, never place yourself or the nation in a position where either ones person or ones nation reminds you of the Romans"

"Never bow to authority, always remain wild"

"Remember your ancestors, and do the ones who did you proud, the same honour"

"The powerful did not build this nation"

Those are some of the many, many lessons history teaches me, which aid me in making decisions on how to vote, how to behave, how to think about matters. There are statues here in Britain which do need removing (although Nelson's Column is not one of them), which were, like those of Stonewall and Lee, and the Lee monument itself, erected to celebrate persons who should not have been celebrated, in a time when people knew full well that they should not be celebrated at all, but condemned as bastards, statues which were propagandist in nature and intent, not legitimate historical remembrance.

There are also statues and memorials to persons of ill repute, which were erected close to or upon the time of their deaths, which have to stand because of their historical significance, because those memorials ARE a part of history, and ARE contemporaneous to the events they depict, despite the villainy of those they memorialise. Again, these can be used to remind us Brits of how NOT to move forward, occupying such place in the mind as to represent the spectres of greed, hatred, and unreasoning violence. Pretty much every last remaining vestige of the Roman era, for example, fit this description. Every last tile, mosaic, every last remaining structure of the Roman period is an affront to my Celtic heart, and the fact I share genes in all probability, with some of those square bashing scumbags is a constant reminder that I must be very careful indeed never to be an imperialist (which, oddly enough, does not mean I have to be against our monarchy in its current form, but I digress).

The point is, that there are folks here, and in the southern states of America, who have failed to be diligent enough to understand the cultural context within which these statues exist, the reasons for their existence, and what these statues ACTUALLY represent. This means that their feelings on the matter are based on a flawed understanding of many things, including whether or not they are actually historical monuments or not, and many of them simply are not, a fact which does not change simply because someone FEELS that they are. The FACT is that the ones I mentioned, and no doubt countless other fine bronze works of their sort in the region, are NOT historical monuments, or of any historical value or significance, but were erected as reminders of what oppressed people could expect to maybe see again, if they ever got the notion that full access to their rights as human beings was something they were due.

However one feels about the situation, based on an incomplete understanding of the history of the monuments themselves, does not change what they are actually about.

originally posted by: TrueBrit

However one feels about the situation, based on an incomplete understanding of the history of the monuments themselves, does not change what they are actually about.

And yet, it's "hurt FEELINGS" that seem to be the driving force in removing these things that have existed for years.

If you will be totally honest, explain to me, hell, show me where you had these feelings 10 or 20 years ago. The statues were here then. I'm willing to bet that you didn't have outrage then. You had other things to occupy your mind. But today, today, you were told to be concerned about the statues. Not because they offended you, but because the offended someone. Someone you don't know, and frankly, someone who may not even give a # about the statues. This my friend is the heart of an SJW. It's not a bad thing if it's real. But when it's manufactured by the media, and it's this damn transparent, it make it look a tiny bit like you are being used like a tool.

What worries me most, is what the media will tell you to do next. They seem to have total control over some.

a reply to: network dude

It just illustrates how effective social engineering actually is.

a reply to: network dude

I did not even know someone had been callous enough to put likenesses of these people up, because as you rightly say, I have been busy with other things, like the things that gall me about my own country, like the fact that every Conservative Club in Great Britain proudly displays the image of the arch bitch and destroyer of our society, that is Margret Thatcher, like the fact that we base our worthiness to live rather than merely exist, on our ability to earn money for people who have not one tenth the moral fortitude we do, like the fact that even our Revenue and Customs department is being fleeced by private corporations, owned largely by Conservatives and doing their banking offshore, therefore paying no tax, ripping off the taxpayer both in unpaid tax and in terms of the obscene markups on products supplied to the tax department, to the tune of tens of billions a year, like the fact that the same tactic is being used at present to destroy our NHS, an institution that people like my grandfather fought tooth and nail to create after WW2, so that our nation would always be healthy enough to withstand whatever the worst the world threw at us next might be.

And yes, I have spent my whole adult life very concerned and vocal about social problems across a wide range, not limited in any way to the things which get regular attention in the press, either here in Britain, or elsewhere in the world.

a reply to: TrueBrit

so you can show an example of how the statues were on your mind before this became fashionable? I'm not hating on you, just trying to make my point. (sorry it's at your expense, right place, right time)

People are being manipulated by the media and don't seem to mind.

Have the income issues been straightened out in your area? They haven't in mine. Cost of living goes up, wages stay the same or go down. Things look brighter, but the wave hasn't caught up with the flow yet.

At least think about how badly you are being played. And when the next outrage is explained to you, it will be interesting to see if you jump on the wagon, or watch it pass.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: network dude

It just illustrates how effective social engineering actually is.

It's effectiveness is frightening. To know that a majority of people can be manipulated like this should scare the # out of everyone, at lest around places like ATS. The woman who pulled down the statue in Durham, she and the accomplices will have felonies attached to them for the rest of their lives. And they seem happy to wear that "badge". I'd like to know how they feel about it a few years from now, when they realize they cannot erase all the things that remind us of the past, yet they still have to live as a felon.

a reply to: network dude

Where am I supposed to pull evidence of my ire from exactly?

Do you think I keep a file of all the monuments I would see removed for their links to distinctly evil elements within our history, and whose placement was questionable in its intent?

I work for a living. People seem to forget that.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: network dude

Where am I supposed to pull evidence of my ire from exactly?

Do you think I keep a file of all the monuments I would see removed for their links to distinctly evil elements within our history, and whose placement was questionable in its intent?

I work for a living. People seem to forget that.

With you, I would take your word for it, as I trust you. So you don't need to produce any documents. But I'd like to hear if you did have any thoughts at all about removing statues of Civil war generals prior to 2014. If not, then perhaps you can now better understand my point.

a reply to: network dude

Civil war generals particularly? No. Why? Because I did not honestly think that anyone would have been stupid or crass enough to erect any, other than JUST after the time at which they met their end, perhaps in defiance of the North, which would have been legit twenty or thirty years later, but not eighty or closer to a hundred!

I have however been very aggrieved to find over the years, monuments to "captains of industry" in my nation, put up relatively recently in history, which celebrate the lives and deeds of mill owners, British slavers, and other morally objectionable scum from our history, whose only memorials should be printed with the words "Remember, scum like this did not build our nation. Instead, the blood, the sweat and the tears of people who never earned a penny for their toil, built this nation. Strive for better for ALL, not for the few."

originally posted by: network dude
Cumberland schools cancel event with Lafayette mascot over slavery
www.wral.com...

FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — Cumberland County’s interim schools superintendent this week canceled a ribbon-cutting ceremony for a school environmental initiative because the program’s mascot, Revolutionary War hero the Marquis de Lafayette, owned slaves. 35 “I think in lieu of what’s going on around the nation and the sensitivity to issues concerning the history of slavery in the country, there was concern there that it may be offensive to some members of our community,” Superintendent Tim Kinlaw said, citing recent protests and violence surrounding Confederate Civil War monuments. Biographers say Lafayette, a Frenchman who was a major general in the Continental Army, was an abolitionist who purchased slaves with the intent of freeing them. In 1783, Fayetteville was the first of several towns in America to be named for him, and he visited with fanfare in 1825. Lafayette died in 1834, 27 years before the Civil War.

With all the political correctness of removing anything that had anything to do with slavery, we have this. A school function that used a historical figure as a mascot. Because this person was associated with slavery, he can't be used for this anymore. But what exactly were his ties to slavery? He was an abolitionist who bought slaves so he could free them. Sounds like a horrible guy. His history needs to be buried and never see the light of day./sarc.

Why ins't this celebrated instead of hidden due to "feelings"? It's only a matter of time before the idiots realize that towns bear the names of civil war generals. They will be next on the chopping block.

Its as bad as the American and European racists that removed the contribution to humanity of African and Asian peoples from history.

Africans were just savages in the jungle not the creators of ancient Egypt and many other great ancient civlizations.

Every action( white racism) causes an equal reaction, that's all your seeing.

Try looking at the reason for what you question. The etiology of it...

The same great French people you want to praise so much held the black Haitians in slavery( while helping the US fight the British) until the great Toussaint Louverture led the Haitians to freedom from the French colonialists.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: TrueBrit

However one feels about the situation, based on an incomplete understanding of the history of the monuments themselves, does not change what they are actually about.

And yet, it's "hurt FEELINGS" that seem to be the driving force in removing these things that have existed for years.

If you will be totally honest, explain to me, hell, show me where you had these feelings 10 or 20 years ago. The statues were here then. I'm willing to bet that you didn't have outrage then.

What you might not be seeing is the cost of speaking up during those decades and before. You might not have lived it, but I was alive during the time when we Whites had to "escort" our biracial and Black friends into areas so that they could eat with us or shop with us without being harassed or arrested (1970 and earlier.) You might not be aware of news stories (as recently as last year) of Blacks and Latinos moving into a mostly White area and having their churches/cars/property damaged and tagged with graffiti indicating that they're not welcome.

The non-White communities knew why those statues were there and what they celebrated but those who wanted them gone couldn't speak up without risk of being harmed. Some states (Virginia in 1902, South Carolina, and others across the south) have laws that protect these monuments from removal - even if the public want them gone. It often takes decades to get approval to remove a Confederate flag (on seals, etc) or a Confederate monument.

Wikipedia's article on this is excellent.

originally posted by: network dude
The woman who pulled down the statue in Durham, she and the accomplices will have felonies attached to them for the rest of their lives. And they seem happy to wear that "badge". I'd like to know how they feel about it a few years from now, when they realize they cannot erase all the things that remind us of the past, yet they still have to live as a felon.

A good example is how Rosa Parks felt about keeping her seat on the bus and not moving to the back.

Or this woman.

Or the ones involved in the sit-in at Dockum Drug Store.

Or the Freedom Riders who tested the Suprene Court decision - including the ones on the bus that was firebombed.

...and voter registration and everything in that Wikipedia article. I can tell you that nobody involved in those acts of defiance feels ashamed about them. I can't speak for the adults and students who lined up to howl abuse at the nine Black students who integrated Little Rock High school or the Klan members who showed up in Birmingham to beat Freedom Riders (etc.)

It's quite possible that both groups are satisfied with what they did... the Klan with "defending the way things should be" and the Freedom Riders in "breaking ground and forcing social change."

Our views are different because of the difference in our ages (and in what happened with our friends.)