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Are there repercussions for trying to remove history?

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posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 10:09 AM
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originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Gryphon66

I'm beginning to think that there are people out there who do not want to be reminded of the lessons that history has taught us.



What lessons would those be exactly? Surely they are non-existent judging by the amount of war and corruption still occurring today and all. War seems more popular than ever.

If you ask me, it's only gotten worse as time (20th/21st century) goes on and propaganda increases daily. And people pay to see/read it. If I had a television I would shoot it to death and jump up and down on the pieces and then throw burning newspapers on top of it.

A statue is just a piece of stone, and, imnsho, a waste of time and resources.

"Let us never forget..." I don't buy it




posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 10:22 AM
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originally posted by: jjkenobi
The people trying to remove history think Trump is a Nazi and white people alive today are racist slave owners. For the life of me I can't understand why anyone cares what they think or pays them any attention.




Because those idiots will be the exact same people that will volunteer to throw You into the gas chamber.



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 10:25 AM
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originally posted by: Plotus
Here's my opinion. Flame away. Mexicans came here, illegally, began forming communities, the communities got bigger and protected their own, became voting blocks and paved the way for more to come. IE. Sanctuary cities and whatnot. Hoping to outnumber the whites at some point and take over by attrition. It's a factual plan. If the blacks can do the same thing with these removals and gain the upper hand in the voting base, they can vote themselves reperations and basically loot and sack the United States.

Another mindset in need of educating... Mexicans aren't 'taking over' , they are invited here due to NAFTA and large Agro and Live stock corporations. See it thru to the end, all of five minutes...



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 10:46 AM
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a reply to: intrptr

No education needed, I lived it ....


humanevents.com...



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 10:54 AM
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Ya, like if history repeated itself, would people notice?





posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 11:07 AM
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a reply to: network dude

Unfortunately we can't erase history or we would. Erase the evil and shame of slavery from our very existence. But we can't so we can remove the reminders of that shame and evil. We can remember that some members of our society were controlled and owned by other members of our society. That some members of our society were denied the rights of every member of mankind under our very laws. So we try to ease those painful reminders by not celebrating the men who condoned it and tried to tear our nation apart to maintain it.

That being said...
Layfayette wasn't even an American. He was French. and he was a revolutionary war hero fighting alongside the continental army of George Washington. He didn't fight for the south because he died an old man years before the civil war. Seems someone is being a bit extreme in this case.
I agree this is stupid.



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 11:20 AM
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“The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.”

― George Orwell



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 11:23 AM
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a reply to: network dude

According to The Fayetteville Observer, Lafayette was to be the mascot of “Flip-Tap-Stack!” which is an effort to teach school children to empty the trash from their disposable cafeteria trays into trash cans and stack the trays for disposal.

I'm pretty sure that the program “Flip-Tap-Stack!” can work without a ribbon-cutting ceremony.



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 11:27 AM
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originally posted by: Asktheanimals
I won't have any street names left in my city.
Early, Breckinridge, Cutshaw, Rodes, Pegram etc.
If you don't recognize any of those last names you get a D on American history from me.
This whole tear it down it offends someone thing has gone way too far already.
We have already indulged this urge like trying to silence a kid in a candy store who, after being told no once only screams louder.
They will never be satisfied so we may as well get used to their tantrums.


Just imagine their tantrums when the pendulum swings the other way and people start renaming all the roads named after Martin Luther King because he was a Christian minister with a mistress and took money from the Soviet Union during the Cold War.



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 11:38 AM
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a reply to: Asktheanimals

Your town named a street after Jubal ) Early? Lol.

"The Creator of the Universe had stamped them, indelibly, with a different color and an inferior physical and mental organization"

Here's another lovely quote from old Jubal: "

"The conditions of domestic slavery, as it existed in the South, had not only resulted in a great improvement in the moral and physical condition of the negro race, but had furnished a class of laborers as happy and contented as any in the world".
Your town sounds lovely.
edit on 12-9-2017 by Regnor because: added another quote

edit on 12-9-2017 by Regnor because: make it look cleaner



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 11:54 AM
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a reply to: network dude

First of all, in this specific instance, the individual concerned, according to the element of his legend which speaks to his intention to free those he purchased, thereby derailing the intentional and institutional racism which informed his period of history, is to be commended, rather than condemned, as any person reading his history would reasonably attest, provided they had sufficient intellect to actually comprehend the documents detailing his life.

I think it is worth pointing out though, that this particular instance is easy to cherry pick from the batch of "Things which are being undone, which ought never have been done in the first place."

For example, there has been an awful lot of backbiting and venom, surrounding the topic of monument removal of late. I want to make sure we understand what these monuments are, and what they are not. The statue of General Robert E. Lee, which (still, as far as I am aware) stands currently in Charlottesville is a prime example of a thing that looks like one thing, which many remember as one thing, but is actually another.

You see, this statue was not erected during, or even close to the time of the end of the Civil War. It was erected in 1924, but to hear some people talk, this is a matter of erasing history... as it happens, the land on which Lee Park sits was once a home, until it was purchased by the commissioner of the sculpture itself (which, I will Grant you (see what I did there?) is a thing of some remarkable, bleak beauty, executed in fine fashion)). No doubt that building had stood for some time, lives had been lived in it, babies born, perhaps people died there. One could, and therefore I shall, argue that the house which had sat on that plot, with its beautiful garden and its weeping willow trees, had more history about it than either the bronze sculpture, or the heavy stone base which would come to adorn those grounds, and yet the commissioner of the piece himself, had that house flattened.

The twin equestrian statue of Lee and Stonewall Jackson, which used to stand in Wyman Park Dell, in Baltimore, Maryland, has been removed now. Its a magnificent looking piece of work, and the first twin equestrian statue of its kind to grace the United States of America. It also is false history, not an ancient thing of story and legend in and of itself, but a structure erected in 1948. It is MODERN by the standards of sculpture, not a thing of myth, hewn from the very ground where Stonewall and Lee met for the first time, but a hunk of metal, well worked and finely fashioned I am sure, but a hunk of mere metal of no significance what so ever, none the less, which does not even share a century with the individuals it depicts. And understand also, this is no matter of a lack of ability, technique, or carving skill, or availability of materials more contemporaneous to the events these statues commemorate. No... This was far more a matter, that, quite rightly, no one saw fit, after the confederate army had been defeated, to commemorate its notaries in such a permanent fashion, until much later in history.

Compare this to the statue of Nelson, which stands atop the column which bares his name, in London, England. Nelson died in 1805, and thirty eight years later, a commission to commemorate his death, and indeed his life, was established, which saw funds devoted to the task of building his likeness, atop a towering column of the Corinthian style, in Trafalgar Square. At its base, four vast bronze plates, which were cast from captured French guns, were attached, after the Dartmoor granite shaft, and the Craigleith sandstone statue itself was put in place. It is also worth mentioning, that the material of which the Corinthian columns "capital" is made, is more bronze, this time, as far as I know, cast from the guns which were on board the HMS Royal George, which is a link to his naval legacy, although the George was not a ship he specifically commanded, or indeed sailed on as far as I am aware.

Not only was the statue completed within the century in which Nelson died, and is an ACTUAL historical monument, not just because it depicts a certain period, but is FROM a certain period, but even the material of which it is made is suitable for the cause of commemorating the life and times of Horatio Nelson. The bronze is from naval guns, the stone from the nation for which he fought. The memorial commemorates his feats of martial skill, and the battle which ended up killing him. It is not some depiction of the man which forgets the awful horror of war, rather depicts it in bronze relief, both the "glory" of victory, and the ultimate defeat which all who die, whether their cause is won or not, eventually encounter. It is also a product of the very same social conventions which birthed the man himself, since things had not changed since his death, in such a way to make the erection of a statue to his honour as a warrior and a hero of the realm, anything other than fitting.

But in the case of the statue of Stonewall and Lee, a work completed in 1943, to commemorate events which had happened over eight decades previously, things HAD moved on a pace since the defeat of those men, since their cause was lost. In 1943, the U.S. had been at war with Japan for two years, and eventually joined the allied nations (somewhat bloody late, by the way), in fighting against the Nazis. This war had ACTUALLY been underway since 1939, not that you would know that to hear some people (pointedly looks west) talk of it, and this was a war against a segregationalist, fascist society, which rated some people as being less human than others. To erect a statue depicting confederate notaries, in 1943, given the similarity in beliefs about race which were held in some confederate circles (which is how slavery was justified in the first place, falsely of course), one would have to be either fantastically dense, or utterly callous. Yes, its safe to say that by the time the Stonewall-Lee statue was built, things had moved on a pace. America was just a little more than a decade from the beginning of a cultural revolution that would see African Americans and other persons of colour rise up and demand their rights from the government, in an effort that would last until right up until the end of the sixties, and was about the business of fighting a war against fanatical racists.

To say that Nelsons Column and Stonewall and Lee Monument, are totally different, in terms of not only their justification, but their historical relevance as statues, is an understatement. One is a legitimate, timely and contemporaneous effort to commemorate a man still regarded a hero at the time of erection by MOST citizens, not just a few, and the other was a particularly untimely effort to place statues of famously unsympathetic men, fighting for a lost and in many respects, morally objectionable cause, WAAAAAY after their lives and deaths had passed into legend, after all who knew them personally were likely dead and buried too, and well after anyone had any business thinking the way they did about slavery, regardless of whose state one happened to be standing in at the time.

Its a different ball game. One was simply a commemoration. The other, a tool of propaganda, designed to remind a segment of the population, of "their place".


edit on 12-9-2017 by TrueBrit because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 12:28 PM
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originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: network dude

We own slaves today but we don't call them that, we call them migrant workers or immigrant labor.


Take them back home and set them free!



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 12:35 PM
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a reply to: TrueBrit

A couple questions, what time frame would a statue need to be erected in order for it to hold its "historical significance"?

And if the right thing to do is remove all those offending statues, at what point is the removal enough? Should we stop at statues, or does this need to go all the way to street names, town names, county names, military base names?

I guess I need to know the level of damage you personally received from the civil war statues. If you have not actually been hurt by these works of art, I really am curious as to know whom you are rallying for? I'd like to know who they are and hear form them as well.


ETA:
Just a quick note about the timing of the Statues. Directly after the Civil War, the south wasn't really in financial, or physical shape to enact monuments, as they were largely on fire. Once the fires were put out, and the dead buried, some statues started to go up.


United States Capitol[edit] There are eight Confederate figures in the National Statuary Hall Collection, in the United States Capitol. In the National Statuary Hall Collection, in the United States Capitol, each state has provided statues of two citizens that the state wants to honor. The following Confederate figures are among them, many in Confederate Army uniforms.[18] Dates reflect when the statue was given to the collection:[19][20] Robert E. Lee (Virginia, 1909)[21] Zebulon Baird Vance (North Carolina, 1916)[22] Edmund Kirby Smith (Florida, 1922) (Florida plans to replace this statue, but as of 2017 a replacement figure has not been chosen.)[23][24] Joseph Wheeler (Alabama, 1925)[25] Alexander Hamilton Stephens (Georgia, 1927)[26] Wade Hampton III (South Carolina, 1929)[27] Jefferson Davis (Mississippi, 1931)[28] James Z. George (Mississippi, 1931)[29] Jabez Lamar Monroe Curry (Alabama, 1908) was replaced by a statue of Helen Keller in 2009[30]


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edit on 12-9-2017 by network dude because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 01:50 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
“The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.”

― George Orwell


"Political language.... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."

"The very concept of objective truth is fading out of the world. Lies will pass into history."

George Orwell



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 02:42 PM
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originally posted by: network dude
Cumberland schools cancel event with Lafayette mascot over slavery
www.wral.com...


FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — Cumberland County’s interim schools superintendent this week canceled a ribbon-cutting ceremony for a school environmental initiative because the program’s mascot, Revolutionary War hero the Marquis de Lafayette, owned slaves. 35 “I think in lieu of what’s going on around the nation and the sensitivity to issues concerning the history of slavery in the country, there was concern there that it may be offensive to some members of our community,” Superintendent Tim Kinlaw said, citing recent protests and violence surrounding Confederate Civil War monuments. Biographers say Lafayette, a Frenchman who was a major general in the Continental Army, was an abolitionist who purchased slaves with the intent of freeing them. In 1783, Fayetteville was the first of several towns in America to be named for him, and he visited with fanfare in 1825. Lafayette died in 1834, 27 years before the Civil War.


With all the political correctness of removing anything that had anything to do with slavery, we have this. A school function that used a historical figure as a mascot. Because this person was associated with slavery, he can't be used for this anymore. But what exactly were his ties to slavery? He was an abolitionist who bought slaves so he could free them. Sounds like a horrible guy. His history needs to be buried and never see the light of day./sarc.

Why ins't this celebrated instead of hidden due to "feelings"? It's only a matter of time before the idiots realize that towns bear the names of civil war generals. They will be next on the chopping block.



Sounds like local government at work, should they not have that choice?



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 03:27 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: network dude
Cumberland schools cancel event with Lafayette mascot over slavery
www.wral.com...


FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — Cumberland County’s interim schools superintendent this week canceled a ribbon-cutting ceremony for a school environmental initiative because the program’s mascot, Revolutionary War hero the Marquis de Lafayette, owned slaves. 35 “I think in lieu of what’s going on around the nation and the sensitivity to issues concerning the history of slavery in the country, there was concern there that it may be offensive to some members of our community,” Superintendent Tim Kinlaw said, citing recent protests and violence surrounding Confederate Civil War monuments. Biographers say Lafayette, a Frenchman who was a major general in the Continental Army, was an abolitionist who purchased slaves with the intent of freeing them. In 1783, Fayetteville was the first of several towns in America to be named for him, and he visited with fanfare in 1825. Lafayette died in 1834, 27 years before the Civil War.


With all the political correctness of removing anything that had anything to do with slavery, we have this. A school function that used a historical figure as a mascot. Because this person was associated with slavery, he can't be used for this anymore. But what exactly were his ties to slavery? He was an abolitionist who bought slaves so he could free them. Sounds like a horrible guy. His history needs to be buried and never see the light of day./sarc.

Why ins't this celebrated instead of hidden due to "feelings"? It's only a matter of time before the idiots realize that towns bear the names of civil war generals. They will be next on the chopping block.



Sounds like local government at work, should they not have that choice?


Well, they do have that choice, and the used their ability to make that choice. I disagree and posted an opinion on it. Do you have an opinion on it?



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 06:05 PM
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originally posted by: Plotus
a reply to: intrptr

No education needed, I lived it ....

humanevents.com...



That website states, "Powerful Conservative Voices" , then berates places like Labor Ready, something I know a lot about from my "Homeless" era. I refused to work there but know plenty of jobless homeless that tried to deal with it. They were Americans too, by the way.

Exploited by the business, if you sign up, stand around and are lucky to get picked, the jobs are always dead end bottom of the barrel. Usually digging trenches somewhere dangerous. If you get paid (IF you get paid) taxes are taken by Labor Ready, if you skip on paying taxes for the days work, then you don't get signed up the next day.

Often times my friends reported to me they worked hard all day only to be laughed off the job site by the boss, not even given a ride home.

Rarely, rarely did a Labor Ready day job ever lead to any substantial steady employment.

Its a dead end place, only the most desperate go there for work. This, from that website, is pure BS...


Clearly, the illegal immigrants at the day labor center didn’t want to be identified, since they were planning to take jobs at below-minimum wages and not pay taxes.


If they are illegal they can't sign up at Labor Ready. If they don't pay Labor Ready their cut and taxes too, from any wages they earn, they can't come back.

Saying this 'movement' of Mexicans is 'taking over' is a joke. Might as well claim people out front Home Depot are taking over, too, lol. But I get the whole 'Conservatives fear for their country' thing, they see terrorists, refugees and illegals under every rock.

There are forty million Latinos living in the uNited States, most of whom are citizens and working for a living.



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 06:10 PM
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originally posted by: Alien Abduct

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: network dude

We own slaves today but we don't call them that, we call them migrant workers or immigrant labor.


Take them back home and set them free!


Whose going to pay for that? Even rounding up 'undocumented' workers is a game the corporations and Gubment agencies (like the INS) play, a scam to fool people like you.

Deportting millions of workers that pick your crops, butcher your meat and clean you Hotel rooms would create chaos. They just come back in, legal or not.



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 06:42 PM
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a reply to: network dude


Sad...I've gotten so used to this kind of ridiculous behavior that what struck me the most about the excerpt there was his ignorance of English. In lieu of what's going on around the country? Really, Mr. Kinlaw? As a superintendent, shouldn't you know the difference in meanings between "in lieu of" and "in light of"? It was only after that thought that the outrage hit.

I've become that desensitized, that quickly...and that worries me.



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 08:20 PM
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originally posted by: network dude
Well, they do have that choice, and the used their ability to make that choice. I disagree and posted an opinion on it. Do you have an opinion on it?


I have no problem with what they did.




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