is this proof that Jesus, or someone like Him, existed AND performed miracles???

To any popular story is a atleast a grain of truth, how much more so, to a story that has persisted for 2000 years~
Im sure such a man existed, my thinking is if he actually preformed miracles as claimed, this would be so rare an astonishing as story as to stick in the minds of folk, even if, like chinese whispers, it has suffered, embroidering and twisting over the many centurys.
There must have been something powerfully charismatic about Him, to have been so noted among probably many prophets of the time.
Either way some genuinely good and wonderful ideals have been attributed to Him, weather or not he existed in life or ledgend, and I beleive in those ideals.

Originally posted by they see ALL
the people could have not been able to read or write but they COULD talk...

word of mouth will travel farther and faster than stories written down (this IS how christianity spread)...

I think you over estimate the efficace of word of mouth, especially its working across contintents, thru different langauges. THe regular people are not represented in history, because they couldn't write, and no one would listen to the unwashed rabble when they were babbling about this or that. They were 'non-persons', and the people who recorded history didn't care or consider what they thought about.

in the stories i read in the Bible, alot of people witnessed these miracles and were amazed.

I don't recall seeing numbers, outside of 'crowds', involved in the stories, many of them were probably part of the 'jesus movement' or 'jesus cult', whichever you prefer to use for it when it was going on. And the important thing to remember is that they didn't write anything down, they don't come down to modern times or even medival times, or heck even the times shortly thereafter, as anything like independant sources. Like in the rest of literature, they are effectively silent, a backdrop against which the stories happen.

lets talk more on this...

Hows that? The competing mystery cults or that there's no reason to think that hebrews in judea would even know about jesus or expose it as a fraud if it were?

what war???

The Great Jewish War, the one that destroyd the jewish kingdom, the one the resulted in the romans gathering up the jews and dispersing them to the corners of the empire. The one that destroyed the 'central' temple, and in a sense destroyed judaism. A war, its important to note, the fear of which is probably what ultimately resulted in jesus's crucifixtion, that was fought to supress zealots, religious radicals, operating in the wilderness in small gangs, communes, etc, talking about overthrowing the romans, establishing a new kingdom, and very much other things that jesus at least appeared to be talking about.

marg6043
This marvelous events which must have filled the world with amazement, had they really occurred, were unknown to him.

I'm not so sure a parlour trick of turning water into wine would really be something the roman or even jewish elite would bother reporting tho.

[josephus]never mention Jesus in his writtings

I was under the impression that he made might have made a vague reference that is sometimes considered to refer to jesus?

I tend to think that people back then didn't really concern themselves with whether or not any of the actual characters existed, whether jesus, mythras, or anything like that.
On the other hand, no one tends to dispute the historiocity of the various apostles, at least not as far as I know.

I think it would be rather hard to find any evidence of an average person's existence back then.

Originally posted by Nygdan
I was under the impression that he made might have made a vague reference that is sometimes considered to refer to jesus?

Josephus, late in the first century, wrote the celebrated work of (The antiquities of the Jews) his original works does not mention Jesus, but by the time the church took over his writing and translate them a passage of Jesus appeared in his writings but not even of a divine Jesus either.

You did not read the end of my post.

Now the Christ of the new testament the icon of the christian church is well and alive in the bible and will stay alive as long as is christians around and their faith will keep him alive.

And is nothing wrong with that.





[edit on 7-2-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by marg6043
You did not read the end of my post.

Actually I noticed it by neglected to remove it from my reponse! Doh!

Greetings again,

First you said :

even though the 4 main gospels were written around 80-90 years after Jesus died, the sons and daughters of the people that lived during the time of Jesus would have known if Jesus existed or not because their parents would have told them of Jesus...

Yes,
IF Jesus had existed, people would have passed on the stories to their children.

But,
If Jesus had NOT existed, and no-one at the time had ever heard of him,
then
they would say NOTHING to their children about Jesus.

Which is exactly what we DO see - no mention of Jesus during his lifetime.


But you say the parents "would have told them of Jesus".
How COULD they, if they had never heard of him?


The evidence shows that :
* no contemporaries mentioned Jesus until after the war,
* the Christian stories WERE ridiculed as superstition,
* the Gospels WERE refuted as FICTION as soon as they became known.

I NEVER said the parents would tell their kids what did NOT happin...
read my first post clearly..

I did,
and that was the whole point of my reply -
People do NOT tell their children what did not happen.
But your argument requires that they DID, which makes it useless.


Your argument that the children would have known about Jesus from their parents could only work IF there WAS a Jesus in the first place - you are assuming your conclusion in the argument - i.e. circular reasoning.

Essentially, you are arguing -
* If Jesus existed,
* then people would have told their kids about it,
* therefore the lack of rebuttals means he existed,
* therefore Jesus existed.


Let me ask you -

IF Jesus had NOT existed at all,
what would people who had never heard of Jesus tell their kids about Jesus?


(Nothing.
Which is EXACTLY what we SEE in the historical record.)



What about the evidence I produced showing that some Christians and pagans and Jews did NOT believe the stories?

What about the attacks on the Gospels as FICTION based on myths ?

What about the attacks that the Evangelists were INVENTORS NOT HISTORIANS ?

What about Julian who wrote that Jesus was UNKNOWN TO HISTORY?



Here are some very useful sites for background info:

Peter Kirby's Early Christian Writings - the best reference for this work:
www.earlychristianwritings.com...

Church fathers:
www.newadvent.org...

Michael Turton's commentary on G.Mark - superb reference for Gospel origins :
users2.ev1.net...

Earl Doherty's argument for a mythical Jesus :
www.jesuspuzzle.org...

Stephen Carlson's excellent page on the Synoptic Problem:
www.mindspring.com...

Historian Richard Carrier's essays :
www.infidels.org...

Fordham's online text page :
www.fordham.edu...


Iasion

i find it weird how all these atheists and people so quick to put down God and his believers, will open their mouths to put down the Bible and christianity in a second. Yet, when a muslim or someone from another theist belief makes a post, they befriend him instead of talking the same smack that they do about the bible and the church.

You know what, when my children were young and they asked me if they could go to church I let them go.

For years my children visited various churches with their friends, and to me was OK.

I knew that one day they will ask me questions about religion, I allowed them to see for themselves and to make choices.

As they grew older they realized on their own what religion was about and they make their personal choices.

I never regret having them find out for themselves what was best for them in their own.

Sometimes religion is good for some but it does not work for others.

Originally posted by Son of the lost maji
find it weird how all these atheists and people so quick to put down God and his believers

Dumb fundie christians, so quick to blame everyhing on 'atheists'.

Originally posted by Son of the lost maji
i find it weird how all these atheists and people so quick to put down God and his believers, will open their mouths to put down the Bible and Christianity in a second.

Do you realized that this thread is more of a research thread than an opinion one?

I wonder if you have any education at all, perhaps researching and reading will make you more literate, read the post from the beginning, nobody is bashing God, or Jesus here mijo.

Originally posted by Son of the lost maji
i find it weird how all these atheists and people so quick to put down God and his believers, will open their mouths to put down the Bible and christianity in a second. Yet, when a muslim or someone from another theist belief makes a post, they befriend him instead of talking the same smack that they do about the bible and the church.

See, that is the kind of behavior that "jesus" would not want you to do....you should not judge other, we are not bad persons, we are not exactly atheist, we beleive in god as for jesus that is another story, you are a true christians, then listen to yourself and stop beign mad....other religions are not just religions, we are all individuals, you have to respect that dear one....I respect you, you respect us...that is the law of the divine. jesus loved his ennemies, if you consider atheist and other religious than christians "ennemies" you have to forget about your ego and accept that.

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Im just saying its a messed up society. For example, if i would express my views at my university about someone else's religion (that is not christianity) i am AUTOMATICALLY labeled a "racist" or "biased". Meanwhile, it is okay and encouraged by some professors to say derogatory statements in school about christian theologies or practices. i wasnt mad anyway, i just put the face in cause i liked it.

Greetings Son of the lost maji,

"stupid fat atheists"

Hmmm...
I am not fat (I am extremely skinny actually.)
I am not stupid (I have I.Q. 135+)
I am not an atheist.

Your post is wrong on all counts.

If people disagre with your faith, you respond with personal insults?
Your comments are the very epitome of faithful bigotry.

i find it weird how all these atheists and people so quick to put down God and his believers, will open their mouths to put down the Bible and christianity in a second.

I am not an atheist, I did not put God or Christianity down.
I provided facts and dates and names and places, which you could check and argue if you wish.
Instead you responded with insults.

Yet, when a muslim or someone from another theist belief makes a post, they befriend him instead of talking the same smack that they do about the bible and the church.

Rubbish.
Produce the evidence that this always happens

I, and many others, have written similarly sceptical articles about the Quran.

Your claim is false, and based on faithful bigotry.

Im just saying its a messed up society. For example, if i would express my views at my university about someone else's religion (that is not christianity) i am AUTOMATICALLY labeled a "racist" or "biased".

Rubbish.
If you made a statement equivalent to "stupid fat atheists" about Muslims, then OF COURSE you will be called a racist - because such behaviour IS racist.

But,
If you "express your views" in the form of rational, polite argument, you will be not be automatically labelled such.
However, it appears from your post that you do not know how to express an argument without insults.
If insults and faithful bigotry are your style, OF COURSE you will be called "racist and biased".

Can you provide a single example where you "expressed your views" at your university WITHOUT insults and bigotry, and were called "racist and biased" ?

Meanwhile, it is okay and encouraged by some professors to say derogatory statements in school about christian theologies or practices.

Rubbish.
Produce the evidence that some professors encourage "derogatory statements in school about christian theologies or practices".

I don't believe you for a moment.


Iasion

Son of the lost maji, your claim that you would be labelled racist for expressing your views on other religions at university makes me wonder what those views are. Any reasonable, non-confrontational, courteous statements that happen to disagree with the faith of another would not be called racist by any rational person.

I have read two well-researched books that refute Jesus' existence, and they present good cases for their claims. Still, I tend to believe that He did exist. One theory claims Josephus wrote all four gospels, and as far as I know he is the lone contemporary writer to mention Him outside of the gospels. I do not trust his writings as some of his claims about other events are very hard for me to believe.

Originally posted by marg6043
The following is a lost of writers who lived and wrote during the time, or within a century after the time, that Christ is said to have lived and performed his wonderful works.

Josephus, Arrian, Philo-Judaeus, Petronius, Seneca, Dion Pruseus, Pliny the Elder, Paterculus, Appian, Juvenal, Theon of Smyran, Martial, Phlegon, Persius, Pompon Mela, Plutarch, Qintinius Curtius, Justus of Tiberus, Lucian, Apllonius, Pusanias, Pliny the Younger, Valerious flaccus, tacitus, Florus lucius, Qintilian, Favorinus, Lucarnus, Phaedrus, Epicteus, Damis, Silius Italicus, Aulus Gellius, Statius, Columella, Ptolemy, Dio Chrysostom, Hermogones, Lysias, Valerius Maximus.

Philo was born before the begining of the Christian erea and lived until long after the reputed death of Christ. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Christ.is said to have existed in on earth.

He was living in or near Jerusalem when Christ’s miraculous birth and the Herodian massacre occurred. He was there when the crucifixion with its attendant earthquake, supernatural darkness, and resurrection of the death took place.

This marvelous events which must have filled the world with amazement, had they really occurred, were unknown to him. Philo developed the doctrine of the logos or word, and Philo never wrote about any of that.

Josephus, the renowned Jewish historian, was a native of Judea. He was born in 37 A.D. and was contemporary of the Apostles. He was for a time, Governor of Galilee, the province in which Christ lived and taught. He also resided in Cana the city in which Jesus performed his first miracle and he never mention Jesus in his writtings.

Justus of Tiberius was a native of Jesus country Galilee he wrote and account of the history of the time, and no even once he refer to Jesus. You can find his works in the Photius bibliotheca, code 33.

Josephus, late in the first century, wrote the celebrated work of (The antiquities of the Jews) his original works does not mention Jesus, but by the time the church took over his writing a passage of Jesus appeared in his writings but not even of a divine Jesus either.

I hope this will help.

[edit on 7-2-2005 by marg6043]

so are you saying that Jesus did not exist because these writers did not mention Him???

this is interesting...

thanks...

true instar...

Nydgan i cannot believe i am defending the christian religion

you are very smart and i will discuss this later...

Originally posted by they see ALL

so are you saying that Jesus did not exist because these writers did not mention Him???

this is interesting...

thanks...

No incorrect, I am only stating that the Christ of miracles and divine birth was not even mention by the writers of the time.

The Jesus of Nazareth of human birth existed in the time, but he was a regular man.

Originally posted by marg6043
No incorrect, I am only stating that the Christ of miracles and divine birth was not even mention by the writers of the time.

The Jesus of Nazareth of human birth existed in the time, but he was a regular man.

sry to get personal but:

what religion do you practice???

and does your first sentence prove that the conspiracy of the church making up the stories of Christ just for the purpose of gaining power is true???

just one more question:

wasn't plato the ONLY man to write about atlantis and people believe atlantis was real???

and wasn't homer the ONLY man to write the Illiad and the Odyssey and people believe this to be real???

if they were the ONLY men then why don't people believe in the story of Jesus' miracles (which were accounted by more than 4 people AKA the stories of the New Testament) but believe in the stories of atlantis, Illiad and the Odyssey (which were accounted by one man each)???

thanks...

Nygdan...

about your comment on "crowds" of people watching Jesus' miracles...

in SOME (maybe only 1) accounts (stories in the Bible) there is a mention of 100 people watching Jesus' miracles...

people HAVE to have heard about this...

about your "word of mouth" comment...

YES word of mouth cannot travel over oceans and into other languages well but if Jesus was so great of a man (a man sent from God) then whatever He did during His life would be known by whoever spoke the language of Jesus (i do not know what the language is that they spoke back then... is it hebrew???)...

if Jesus' story was known by ALL hebrew speakers around Jesus' area, then it is safe to say that it will spread to other people / languages all over the world (we see the result of this now)...

Originally posted by marg6043
Iason that is very nice post you did, it remind me of another expert we used to have on gospels, he has not been around in a while.

Yes, and I miss him a lot. I needed his knowledge badly the other day...but he is no longer visiting here for some reason I always enjoyed his posts!

:::::end thread jack::::

Iasion...

good arguments and good info...

i find it wierd that only some writers of Jesus' time mentioned Him (besides the writers of the Bibe)...

son of the lost maji...

idiot