is this proof that Jesus, or someone like Him, existed AND performed miracles???

while the gospel was being read today in the morning (in a catholic high school), i thought of this...

some of the miracles Jesus performed was infront of many people. if He did not exist, don't you think that when people read the Bible (or whatever it was called right after Jesus died) they would have said: "hey, this never happined. i lived in Jerusalem all my life and i never heard of this Jesus or these miracles"...

if Jesus did not exist, the people living in and around Jerusalem would have exposed this fact because they would have known that He never existed...

even though the 4 main gospels were written around 80-90 years after Jesus died, the sons and daughters of the people that lived during the time of Jesus would have known if Jesus existed or not because their parents would have told them of Jesus...

because the story of Jesus and all His miracles still exist today, Jesus or someone just like Him had to have existed. If the story was made up, the people in and around the place where Jesus lived, would have exposed this fact...

to me, this proves that Jesus, or a man just like Him, existed AND performed miracles...

any thoughts???

My opinion is that that is not very good proof. I hear rumors around school every other day and well, i pretty much believe them all. See what i mean?

Actually is not prof but the ones in the bible that that Jesus existed.

The writers and ancient historians of the time that lived around and in the same times as Jesus, did not wrote anything about the miracles of a Saviour or the miraculous birth of Jesus.

That is prof enough that something was not right.

[edit on 7-2-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by marg6043
Actually is not prof but the one in the bible that that Jesus existed.

The writers and ancient historians off the time that lived around and in the same times at Jesus, did not wrote anything about the miracles of a Saviour or the miraculous birth of Jesus.

That is prof enough that something was not right.

Right Margie....so right!

Something is not right, and everybody starts asking questions about it these days...(I see many thread on jesus and the christ) maybe because of the book Da Vinci Code????
Any way, I just think that the story of Jesus in the bible, is an old pagan story brought back way after the year "0"....these guys (luc, matt, jean and Marc) who are they exactly? When did they wrote that, why? We will NEVER know....so christians beleive stuff that was written by some guys way after jesus death....and probably hide some stuff becaue of the roman empire that used the writting for their purpose...I don't judge their beliefs, they feel good with that but there are some things that have to be investigated....that is why I trust my own soul and god as the source, it would be hard for a christians if we had Proofs that Jesus is not the son of god....we are all sons AND daughters of god..that is my feeelings and feelings never lies

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I love you all, I really do!

Greetings they see ALL,

some of the miracles Jesus performed was infront of many people. if He did not exist, don't you think that when people read the Bible (or whatever it was called right after Jesus died) they would have said: "hey, this never happined. i lived in Jerusalem all my life and i never heard of this Jesus or these miracles"...

When?
Who?

The Gospels were unknown until two generations AFTER the war.
There is no evidence that ANYONE knew the Gospel stories until a CENTURY after the alleged events.

There was no-one left alive from that period to gainsay these stories.

even though the 4 main gospels were written around 80-90 years after Jesus died, the sons and daughters of the people that lived during the time of Jesus would have known if Jesus existed or not because their parents would have told them of Jesus...

Between the time of Jesus and the arise of the Gospels lies :
* a CENTURY
* several generations
* TWO wars
* the total destruction of the temple
* the razing of Jerusalem
* the erasing of Judea from the map
* the dispersal of the Jews from Jerusalem

When the Gospel stories arose after all this, there was no Jerusalem.

IF Jesus had lived, then MAYBE the parents would pass on the story.
But
if Jesus had NOT existed, they would NOT have told their children this.

Do people tell their children what did NOT happen?
Of course not.

Think about it -
will YOU be telling your children all the things that did NOT happen in your life?
Just in case someone later makes up stories about your times?
Of course not.

because the story of Jesus and all His miracles still exist today, Jesus or someone just like Him had to have existed. If the story was made up, the people in and around the place where Jesus lived, would have exposed this fact...

The stories of Odysseus still exists today.
The stories of Apuleius and his miracles still exist today.
The stories of Hercules still exist today.

Does that make them true?
No.



Early refutations of Christianity

You emphasize that people of the day would have exposed the Christian stories if they were not true.

But you seem oblivious to the evidence that when the Gospels came to prominance, they DID EXACTLY that -

Initially, the new cult is largely ignored, but ridiculed by a few writers -
* Tacitus - "a class hated for their abominations", "a most mischievous superstition"
* Pliny - "this mad sect"
* Lucian - "misguided creatures"

The words and phrases used by early writers to refer to Christians and Christianity include :
"fables" "lie" "myths" "superstition" "empty rumour"
"alter the originals over and over" "invented"
"base and ignorant creed making fishermen"
"blasphemy" "spurious" "counterfeit" "contradicts"
"refuted because they disagree"

This is not the sign of a truth being unchallenged - it is obviously the EXACT OPPOSITE - a wacky new cult, initially mostly ignored, sometimes ridiculed and rejected with dismissive comments.



Jewish responses to Christianity

The Jewish response is just what we would expect of a wacky new cult - initially they ignore it. But late in the 1st century, as more Jews leave for Christianity, the Jews formally BAN the Christians from their synagogues and curse them as "minim". And lets not forget the Gospels arose sometime after the war, the Jews had a LOT more to worry about than refuting some a new cult.

Later, of course, when Christianity is rising to power, and the Jews have recovered from the Roman destructions, they DO try to discredit Jesus with all sorts of horrible stories being told -
* Jesus is a bastard (a mamzer) born from Mary's adultery with a Roman soldier,
* Jesus is a child conceived in the "time of separation" (during menstruation),
* Jesus was a evil magician who tried to lead people astray,

This is not the sign of the Jews unable to refute Christianity - on the contrary - it's the sign of a new cult which is at first ignored, then ridiculed and attacked when it starts to become a threat.



Variant Christian views

In the formative period of Christianity, the 2nd century, we see all sorts of disagreement about specific Christian claims :

The epistles of John mention other Christians who do not believe in a son of God, and attack Christians who do not believe Jesus came in the flesh.

The epistle of Polycarp also describes those who do not accept that Jesus came in the flesh.

Consider the astonishing case of Minucius Felix - he explicitly rejected the worship of a man on a cross as a Christian belief, he explicitly denied that God could become man. That's a 2nd century church father who explicitly rejected the incarnation and the crucifixion - 2 central beliefs of Christians.

Many other disagreements are expressed in the 2nd century :
* Timothy warning against the fables of genealogies,
* Marcion denied Jesus was born of Mary,
* gnostics such as Basilides and Bardesanes claimed Jesus was a phantom or spiritual being,
* the docetae argue Jesus was an illusion,
* Barnabas denies Christ was "son of David",
* forged letters warning about forgeries and "other christs"

In short - the 2nd century is full of refutations and rebuttals as the varying Christian sub-sects argued about what was "really true" about Jesus.

This is not the sign of a historical event which was not refuted - its a clear sign of the exact opposite - religious mythology being argued over.



Pagan responses to Christianity

Initially, the new cult is largely ignored, but ridiculed by a few writers -
* Tacitus - "a class hated for their abominations", "a most mischievous superstition"
* Pliny - "this mad sect"
* Lucian - "misguided creatures"

Later on, when Christianity and the Gospels first rose to prominence, they DID receive detailed rebuttals.

Celsus specifically attacked the Gospels as "fiction" based on myths, and he claimed the Gospels were changed over and over to deflect criticism. Hoffman's reconstruction has quotes such as these :
"Clearly the Christians have used...myths... in fabricating the story of Jesus' birth...It is clear to me that the writings of the Christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction"

Celsus' attack was so damaging to the church, that they attempted to erase it from history, we only have quotes of it because of angry Christians who answered his critique.

This is not the sign of external agreement on Christian claims - it is demonstrably the exact opposite - a specific attack that the Gospels were FICTION, an attack so damaging the church tried to burn every copy of it.


A few generations later, as the church is consolidating its power, a pagan historian Porphyry wrote another critique of Christian beliefs "Against the Christians", including such criticism such as :

"The evangelists were fiction writers-- not observers or eyewitnesses to the life of Jesus. Each of the four contradicts the other in writing his account of the events of his suffering and crucifixion"

"Anyone will recognize that the [gospels] are really fairy tales if he takes the time to read further into this nonsense of a story..."

"Another section in the gospel deserves comment, for it is likewise devoid Of sense and full of implausibility; I mean that absurd story about Jesus sending his apostles across the sea ahead of him after a banquet, then walking across to them 'at the fourth watch of the night'...Those who know the region well tell us that, in fact, there is no 'sea' in the locality but only a tiny lake which springs from a river that flows through the hills of Galilee near Tiberias... Mark seems to be stretching a point to extremities when he writes that Jesus-- after nine hours had passed-- decided in the tenth to walk across to his disciples who had been floating about on the pond for the duration... It is fables like this one that we judge the gospel to be a cleverly woven curtain, each thread of which requires careful scrutiny"


Then, just as Christianity had come to be the state religion, the Roman emperor Julian rejected the faith and wrote his own refutation of Christianity, "Against the Galileans", including comments such as :
".. why do you worship this spurious son of his whom has never been recognised as his own", and "You however, I know not why, foist on him a counterfeit son".

Note this telling criticism of Julian, the educated Roman emperor :
"But if you can show me that one of these men is mentioned by the well-known writers of that time - the events happened in the reign of Tiberius or Claudius - then you may consider that I speak falsely on all matters"

Here we see Julian explicitly state that Jesus is UNKNOWN TO HISTORY.


The evidence is clear -

* there is NO contemporary evidence for Jesus or the Gospel events,
* initially Christian stories were ignored, or dismissed as "superstition",
* the Gospels stories were UNKNOWN until a CENTURY or so after the alleged events,
* the Gospels were anonymous works, based on ONE original story (G.Mark),
* even some Christians did not believe the Jesus stories,
* when the Gospels arose, they were attacked as FICTION based on MYTH.


This shows the Gospels were religious mythology, no history.


Iasion

The bible wasnt even really written untill 100 C.E.

Nobody really would have been alivethen from during the time supposedly Christ roamed the earth.

Hey Iason, good work, I see you researched a lot!


We will NEVER know if that Jesus guy ever existed or not, if he was the son of god or not...the important thing to remember is that because of that religion, there were WARS and still there are wars after 2000 years, some fanatics are afraid of hell and sins and would kill for jesus....the vatican is plenty of gold and power, religion helps to win in politic, and most of all, before jesus was there it was crap and 2000 years later, it is still crap! There is still wars, crimes, hate and fear, just in a modern way, so what is the answer? What did he do for us in a practical way! If he existed he must say "what the hell did I came for?" nothing have changed!

People don't understand the true foundations of religion....they understand what THEY want!

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Iason that is very nice post you did, it remind me of another expert we used to have on gospels, he has not been around in a while.

The Fact that the Four Gospels were written at various times and starting at a century after the death of Christ can have some contrubiting evidince towards the actual reality that Jesus existed.

Aside from the relgious standpoint we have found and studdied letters from varous governers across the Roman Empire to the Emperor himself. I do not have a source but in my teachings through various catholic text books I have read that there has been this.

NOw back to the gospels. The 3 synoptic gospels were al written in teh peroid of about 50 years of each other I believe. And the fact that Matthew, Mark, and Luke have information deaing with the same things throughout the gospels leads us to know that they had a common source of information. This source was called the Q source and they each shared various aspects of it and put in their own details that are onnly in their gospel.

The Gospel of John was written later than the 3 and contained alot of different inforation than the origonal 3. John had his own source in the writings of his gospel.

There are also the secret gospels that have been found but not reconized by the cannon of the church.

the letters and the Acts of the apostles also were written at differnet times. The fact that all the information in all the gospels, Acts, and the Letters even the unreconized gospels all coorlates and add in a line. The fact that even though because they could have been writeen like each other because they all branched from one origonal is highly unlikely. The bible was never actuall largely published until the 1600's. The only coppies of the bible were written miticulosly by scribes and were only kept in high relgious centers due to theit scaricty. The writers of the Gospels most likey never actually knew each other or read each others work.

I know that historians, archeologist and theologians all aggree that Jesus was infact a true person.

Originally posted by Mizar

I know that historians, archeologist and theologians all aggree that Jesus was infact a true person.

Yes your are correct, Jesus the Nazareth the man the teacher the leader yes, but the Christ the saviour the one that performed miracles and was of divine birth is what is been debated.

As a regular man he was not important enough to be recognized by historians of the time.

The Christ the saviour yes he was the icon of the Christian religion and recognized only in the bible that holds the teachings of christianity.

To the Poster, check out this thread.
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

And take this into account. A lot of smart people could have performed miracles 2000 years ago. People weren't that smart, and most of them were stoned out of their minds. Cannabis was used exclusively for rituals involving annointing oil, and people smoked it as well. They even mashed the seeds to eat. They were HIGH. Is it any wonder they had a more intimate relationship with god? Most modern marijuana users have a great deal of spirituality, more so even than your average Christian. Wake up Christians, band together Catholics, demand your annointing oil! Retake your faith from the ones who seek to control you.

Originally posted by CosaNostra
My opinion is that that is not very good proof. I hear rumors around school every other day and well, i pretty much believe them all. See what i mean?

you believe in ALL the rumors???

that is alot of beliefs and info...

anyway, christianity calls this "faith"...

since this is a religious thread...

if you believed in ALL the religions in the world, you would have GREAT information but you cannot believe in all of them because each one has it's own rules and etc...

this is my point...

Originally posted by marg6043
Actually is not prof but the ones in the bible that that Jesus existed.

The writers and ancient historians of the time that lived around and in the same times as Jesus, did not wrote anything about the miracles of a Saviour or the miraculous birth of Jesus.

That is prof enough that something was not right.

[edit on 7-2-2005 by marg6043]

they didn't write about in ancient times???

because this is a conspiracy site, lets talk about this (it seems like you are saying that someone edited the text to gain power and etc)...

Originally posted by Amelia

Something is not right, and everybody starts asking questions about it these days...(I see many thread on jesus and the christ) maybe because of the book Da Vinci Code????
Any way, I just think that the story of Jesus in the bible, is an old pagan story brought back way after the year "0"....these guys (luc, matt, jean and Marc) who are they exactly? When did they wrote that, why? We will NEVER know....so christians beleive stuff that was written by some guys way after jesus death....and probably hide some stuff becaue of the roman empire that used the writting for their purpose...I don't judge their beliefs, they feel good with that but there are some things that have to be investigated....that is why I trust my own soul and god as the source, it would be hard for a christians if we had Proofs that Jesus is not the son of god....we are all sons AND daughters of god..that is my feeelings and feelings never lies

nope, it has nothing to do with Da Vinci Code...

yes, christianity could have originated from the pagans but who knows...

i agree with you that a person must trust his / her own feelings...

Originally posted by Iasion
Greetings they see ALL,

When?
Who?

The Gospels were unknown until two generations AFTER the war.
There is no evidence that ANYONE knew the Gospel stories until a CENTURY after the alleged events.

There was no-one left alive from that period to gainsay these stories.

what war...

Originally posted by Iasion
Between the time of Jesus and the arise of the Gospels lies :
* a CENTURY
* several generations
* TWO wars
* the total destruction of the temple
* the razing of Jerusalem
* the erasing of Judea from the map
* the dispersal of the Jews from Jerusalem

When the Gospel stories arose after all this, there was no Jerusalem.

IF Jesus had lived, then MAYBE the parents would pass on the story.
But
if Jesus had NOT existed, they would NOT have told their children this.

Do people tell their children what did NOT happen?
Of course not.

Think about it -
will YOU be telling your children all the things that did NOT happen in your life?
Just in case someone later makes up stories about your times?
Of course not.

when did Jerusalem cease to exist???

when was it rebuilt (it exists now right???)...

i NEVER said the parents would tell their kids what did NOT happin...

read my first post clearly...

Originally posted by Iasion
The stories of Odysseus still exists today.
The stories of Apuleius and his miracles still exist today.
The stories of Hercules still exist today.

Does that make them true?
No.

niiice examples...

the only thing i can say to counter that is:

they exist now but we know they are fake (now you can say the christian beliefs exist now but it is fake)...

Iasion, can i have the sites you used for your information???

Originally posted by WolfofWar
The bible wasnt even really written untill 100 C.E.

Nobody really would have been alivethen from during the time supposedly Christ roamed the earth.

i know...

maybe their kids???

Originally posted by Amelia
We will NEVER know if that Jesus guy ever existed or not, if he was the son of god or not...the important thing to remember is that because of that religion, there were WARS and still there are wars after 2000 years, some fanatics are afraid of hell and sins and would kill for jesus....the vatican is plenty of gold and power, religion helps to win in politic, and most of all, before jesus was there it was crap and 2000 years later, it is still crap! There is still wars, crimes, hate and fear, just in a modern way, so what is the answer? What did he do for us in a practical way! If he existed he must say "what the hell did I came for?" nothing have changed!

People don't understand the true foundations of religion....they understand what THEY want!

yes...

we will never know...

yes, there have been wars because religion ALWAYS causes this problem...

most people judge other people based on their religion...

Originally posted by they see ALL
"hey, this never happined. i lived in Jerusalem all my life and i never heard of this Jesus or these miracles"...

I'd expect tht people would say 'hey, this guy was doing miracles' before that. Thing is that there isn't much testimony in general for the regular people, in part because no one at the time cared what they had to say and they had no real way to say it (ie they were illiterate).

Also, the people inovlved in teh early christian community weren't even in the levant, let alone jerusalem.

I'd have to say tho, that when things get tight between christianity and the other cults and the standard roman cult, no one is walking around saying 'there never was a jesus'. One might expect them to have questioned his very existence. Of course, similarly, people didn't say 'there is no mithras' either.
if Jesus did not exist, the people living in and around Jerusalem would have exposed this fact because they would have known that He never existed...

the people that lived during the time of Jesus would have known if Jesus existed

Why? He was a nobody, as far as they were concerned. He was a guy who ran around in the wilderness with a number of rather unsavoury people, let alone the crowds of decrepit poor and whores. Heck, there were lots of people running around the wilds of judea associating with criminal radicals and zealots, causeing real trouble. The general judean public wouldn't have any idea who he was. Even when he was crucified it was a long with two theives (or some readings take them for other militant radicals), and even then it was one out of inumerable sets of criminal executions.

If the story was made up, the people in and around the place where Jesus lived, would have exposed this fact

There's just no reason to think that tho, and, of course, it applies to the other pagan gods and other competeing cults, like the isis mysteries or the mithras cult

Originally posted by they see ALL

what war

Wow.

What are they teaching in catholic schools these days?

they[Iliad, Odyssey] exist now but we know they are fake

No we don't. Heck, there is good evidence that some of whats in them was in fact true.

they see ALL

I am going to ask just one question to you, can you name any historian of the time that were contemporaneous with Jesus time and that lived or visited the same areas and locations of Jesus?

I do, I can name then all none of them make references of Christ or Jesus. Many months ago in a religious thread all the names of this writters and historians of the time were posted by me.

[edit on 7-2-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by Nygdan
I'd expect tht people would say 'hey, this guy was doing miracles' before that. Thing is that there isn't much testimony in general for the regular people, in part because no one at the time cared what they had to say and they had no real way to say it (ie they were illiterate).

Also, the people inovlved in teh early christian community weren't even in the levant, let alone jerusalem.

I'd have to say tho, that when things get tight between christianity and the other cults and the standard roman cult, no one is walking around saying 'there never was a jesus'. One might expect them to have questioned his very existence. Of course, similarly, people didn't say 'there is no mithras' either.
if Jesus did not exist, the people living in and around Jerusalem would have exposed this fact because they would have known that He never existed...

the people could have not been able to read or write but they COULD talk...

word of mouth will travel farther and faster than stories written down (this IS how christianity spread)...

Originally posted by Nygdan
Why? He was a nobody, as far as they were concerned. He was a guy who ran around in the wilderness with a number of rather unsavoury people, let alone the crowds of decrepit poor and whores. Heck, there were lots of people running around the wilds of judea associating with criminal radicals and zealots, causeing real trouble. The general judean public wouldn't have any idea who he was. Even when he was crucified it was a long with two theives (or some readings take them for other militant radicals), and even then it was one out of inumerable sets of criminal executions.

in the stories i read in the Bible, alot of people witnessed these miracles and were amazed. if He existed, these people WOULD be amazed (even if He was a man with powers from Satan as some people back then thought, He would gain popularity)...

Originally posted by Nygdan
There's just no reason to think that tho, and, of course, it applies to the other pagan gods and other competeing cults, like the isis mysteries or the mithras cult

lets talk more on this...




[edit on 7-2-2005 by they see ALL]

Originally posted by Nygdan

what war

Wow.

What are they teaching in catholic schools these days?

they[Iliad, Odyssey] exist now but we know they are fake

No we don't. Heck, there is good evidence that some of whats in them was in fact true.

what war???

and yes, those stories could have happined, my mistake...

Originally posted by marg6043
they see ALL

I am going to ask just one question to you, can you name any historian of the time that were contemporaneous with Jesus time and that lived or visited the same areas and locations of Jesus?

I do, I can name then all not of them make references of Christ or Jesus. Many months ago in a religious thread all the names of this writters and historians of the time were posted by me.

name them

this is good discussion...

Originally posted by they see ALL
name them

this is good discussion...

As your wish, but I will have to type them first on my word perfect so give me some time, I am not conected to a printer to scan, I am on my lap top.

The following is a lost of writers who lived and wrote during the time, or within a century after the time, that Christ is said to have lived and performed his wonderful works.

Josephus, Arrian, Philo-Judaeus, Petronius, Seneca, Dion Pruseus, Pliny the Elder, Paterculus, Appian, Juvenal, Theon of Smyran, Martial, Phlegon, Persius, Pompon Mela, Plutarch, Qintinius Curtius, Justus of Tiberus, Lucian, Apllonius, Pusanias, Pliny the Younger, Valerious flaccus, tacitus, Florus lucius, Qintilian, Favorinus, Lucarnus, Phaedrus, Epicteus, Damis, Silius Italicus, Aulus Gellius, Statius, Columella, Ptolemy, Dio Chrysostom, Hermogones, Lysias, Valerius Maximus.

Philo was born before the begining of the Christian erea and lived until long after the reputed death of Christ. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Christ.is said to have existed in on earth.

He was living in or near Jerusalem when Christ’s miraculous birth and the Herodian massacre occurred. He was there when the crucifixion with its attendant earthquake, supernatural darkness, and resurrection of the death took place.

This marvelous events which must have filled the world with amazement, had they really occurred, were unknown to him. Philo developed the doctrine of the logos or word, and Philo never wrote about any of that.

Josephus, the renowned Jewish historian, was a native of Judea. He was born in 37 A.D. and was contemporary of the Apostles. He was for a time, Governor of Galilee, the province in which Christ lived and taught. He also resided in Cana the city in which Jesus performed his first miracle and he never mention Jesus in his writtings.

Justus of Tiberius was a native of Jesus country Galilee he wrote and account of the history of the time, and no even once he refer to Jesus. You can find his works in the Photius bibliotheca, code 33.

Josephus, late in the first century, wrote the celebrated work of (The antiquities of the Jews) his original works does not mention Jesus, but by the time the church took over his writing a passage of Jesus appeared in his writings but not even of a divine Jesus either.

I hope this will help.

[edit on 7-2-2005 by marg6043]