The Fallacy of The War on Drugs and Ideas to End It

originally posted by: wantsome
I've been on both sides of the fence. When I did drugs I was pro legalization. It's been 20 years since I last did drugs. I've seen enough peoples lives damaged from drugs. The last thing we need in society is to condone drug use.

I don't do them any more, but I think there is a difference between condoning their use and punishing people for doing what they want with their own bodies.
A person shooting heroin does not hurt me.
If they steal my stuff to support their habit, that does affect me, but we already have laws against robbery and theft.

a reply to: underwerks

Given the minds that frequent ATS, I'm interested in what ideas people may have for ending the war on drugs, decriminalization of drug use, treatment options, the impact you imagine it would have on society, good or bad, and anything else you can think of. 

Just end it. It's a losing battle. No amount of laws will ever stop drug use.

a reply to: Willtell

First, the war on crime was started to curtail our rights. 

The war on crime?

Who is for crime?

a reply to: underwerks

The war for your free-willed thinking minds is the greatest contributing factor to the problems of society, and quite possibly the greatest threat to humanity.

Hey friend

The question we have to ask ourselves is this

Do we not use drugs because of the fear of breaking the law

Or do we not use drugs because of negative effects

For me it's a bit of both and depends on what's considered as a drug.

Maybe the war on drugs could have started with good intentions for the people, but now it's a solid money maker on both sides of that law.

Can you imagine how many more "poor" people there would be without drug money, how many cops that would not be cops.

This train will never stop, it funds economy's, wars and is key to controlling society.

In a dream world, or mushroom world, I would wave a wand and make all world leaders stop funding all military and put every cent into health education and rehabilitation centres.

We should be on other planets terraforming and making mars angels in the sand, not blowing each other up over a book or a lust for control and oil..

It's not simple but I agree we should be free to put whatever we want in our bodies.
Having said that I think drug abuse is a medical issue, not a criminal issue.
Given early education about drugs people can make informed choices which is why there were a number of substances I would never try.
Look at the damage and lives ruined by alcohol yet it's legal.
I don't drink.

This is the key:
The biggest deterrent to drug abuse is social pressure.
Last time you drank too much were you encouraged to "have just one more" ?
Same applies to drugs.
People need to take on the social responsibility of looking out for each other.
Addiction treatment should be readily available to anyone for free.
It would cost far less than the current system of incarceration and stop destroying lives.

originally posted by: underwerks


I believe anything you can naturally grow should be legal and not subject to any government interference.

I see your point, and somewhat agree with you.
But allow me, for the sake of debate, play devil's advocate.

Cocoa can be grown, right?
Opium poppies can be grown.
Wormwood can be grown.

While i get your point, and **mostly** agree with you, just because something can be grown, doesn't mean it should be used/ingested.
Oleander
Nightshade
Belladonna
All those can be grown.
I'm not being a jerk, just reacting to your post.

originally posted by: Brywilson2

originally posted by: underwerks


I believe anything you can naturally grow should be legal and not subject to any government interference.

I see your point, and somewhat agree with you.
But allow me, for the sake of debate, play devil's advocate.

Cocoa can be grown, right?
Opium poppies can be grown.
Wormwood can be grown.

While i get your point, and **mostly** agree with you, just because something can be grown, doesn't mean it should be used/ingested.
Oleander
Nightshade
Belladonna
All those can be grown.
I'm not being a jerk, just reacting to your post.

I was specifically thinking of opium poppies and cannabis when I wrote that. So yes I believe those should be legal as well. Along with Coca leaves too.

I don't think we should legislate nature.

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: wantsome
I've been on both sides of the fence. When I did drugs I was pro legalization. It's been 20 years since I last did drugs. I've seen enough peoples lives damaged from drugs. The last thing we need in society is to condone drug use.

I don't do them any more, but I think there is a difference between condoning their use and punishing people for doing what they want with their own bodies.
A person shooting heroin does not hurt me.
If they steal my stuff to support their habit, that does affect me, but we already have laws against robbery and theft.

Its the people stealing my stuff to support their habit that I may deal with in ways not condoned by the cops and courts.

I have beat a couple people badly for stealing my property and they never knew who got them.
Pepper spray in the form of bear repellent works great at making it hard to see who is beating on you.

I agree with you totally with the statement the war on drugs being the single most glaring problem when it comes to societal problems.

The answer is simple enough, imo. Decriminalization of many drugs for sale and all drugs for personal use. People aregue that some harder drugs ruin lives and people, but what is the alternative? Prison time - which effectively ruins the same lives for a garaunteed lifelong period while making a profit off of it for private companies with severly overcrowded systems.

I say decriminalization because full on legalization could be dangerous for out country as a whole because then the big pharma companies will begin patenting and owning rights to specific drugs instead. The rising cannabis industry comes to mind. Said companies are already making positions within it behind the scenes. # that.

Instead of criminalization and resulting legal records for life affecting employment, treatment for addictions should be the only thing offered or demanded. And things like cannabis, something which can be grown and has nowhere near the side effects of alcohol, should have no regulations or extra taxes whatsoever.

The thing that pisses me off the most is the fact that government more specifically the CIA began pureposely shipping in and getting people addicted to serious substances like opium decades ago. It became a never ending money making scheme with sales profits, for profit prisons, and slave labor of the incarcerated due to the 13th amendment.

It this decriminalization system was taken on it would benefit every single statistic save for the dirty money lining politicians and devil companies' profits.

The entire drug war boils down to two things. Stripping citizens of the rights and percieved power via harsh penalities through conditioning. And then money.

In short, it provides more control provided by the perpetrators themselves. Simple as that

originally posted by: Asktheanimals

Last time you drank too much were you encouraged to "have just one more" ?
Same applies to drugs.

i agree with most of what you said but i think this here is exclusively a booze issue.
did my fair share of drinking and still do my fair share of other things.

the only times i have ever encountered that stupid # was with booze.
the egging on to keep up. "ive had 5 beers and you have only had 4...keep up man"

egging on for 1 more shot.

never been egged on cause i only took 4 pulls when my buddy took 5.
not once

and to the question of fear of doing too much or fear of breaking the law.

for me it is 100% about the potential consequences. its the possibility of jail or losing my job. in the end it just makes it a little more of a pain in the ass

a reply to: rockintitz

I'm for certain current crimes, the law is often an ass

You guys want them all legal?

Then I want no social safety net for those of you who get hooked and become junkies, not even for the "children."

With great freedom comes great responsibility, and when you are talking about substances like meth and opium and how addictive they can be, that's some of the greatest responsibility out there.

I also don't want to pay for your health care, so no socialized medicine.

So let's trade. Go full libertarian in the true sense of the word, and I will listen.

a reply to: ketsuko

cool.
dont pay for my healthcare

i want to be able to make my own choices as an adult and enjoy whatever substance i want without having to worry about being tossed in jail and my life ruined.
the war on drugs is absolutely not working. i think we can all agree on that

do people OD and die and become junkies? of course
if it is legal will they continue to? of course

i think a lot of the shady # will be eliminated though.
wrong parts of town. people getting rolled. # that has been stepped on and you dont even know for sure what you are getting.
that would be gone.

im not a free for all. no regulation. legal does not mean unregulated.
why not let people go to a legit business to buy clean # while paying a hefty tax?

the substances are going to be around anyway. the last 100 years have shown us that
people will enjoy these substances
money will change hands

lets put it all on the level and try to have some benefits come of it

a reply to: TinySickTears

Look at what has happened with cigarettes.

They are legal with a hefty tax. In fact, there are large black markets for cigarettes in some places thanks to the hefty tax on cigarettes.

That guy in New York who was killed during an interaction with police? Do you know what his crime was? He was selling single cigarettes on the street corner in defiance of New York's tobacco tax because he could make a decent profit undercutting the tax on a pack of cigs. The shop owners in the area turned him in for taking their business.

So you can't exactly say it will undercut a lot of shady crap. Even with legal tobacco since ... forever ... you have shady crap going on with a cigarette black market in some places thanks to ideas like yours.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: TinySickTears

Look at what has happened with cigarettes.

They are legal with a hefty tax. In fact, there are large black markets for cigarettes in some places thanks to the hefty tax on cigarettes.

That guy in New York who was killed during an interaction with police? Do you know what his crime was? He was selling single cigarettes on the street corner in defiance of New York's tobacco tax because he could make a decent profit undercutting the tax on a pack of cigs. The shop owners in the area turned him in for taking their business.

So you can't exactly say it will undercut a lot of shady crap. Even with legal tobacco since ... forever ... you have shady crap going on with a cigarette black market in some places thanks to ideas like yours.

i acknowledged things will still happen
what else has happened though?

fewer people are smoking cigarettes now. theyve gone to vaporizers and a lot off nicotine completely.
and i remember the guy. another situation of a cowboy cop but that dont matter

fact is we dont know exactly what the results would be. we have our guesses.
the other fact is the war on drugs is an epic failure

it has not stopped or even curbed drug sales or use.

so what are your ideas? that was the question posed

keep it as is?

a reply to: TinySickTears

No. My point is that if you want legalization, there are lot of things that will need to be changed in the nation's mentality. Some of the drugs you want legalized are addictive enough in some individuals that it only takes one shot for them to be hooked. Meth is like this.

If we are going to let people take on that responsibility to run those risks, do you really think it then becomes society's responsibility to support and enable those who get hooked?

I think we can look at some kind of treatment program, but I can also see a cut-off for help too. If you go in and don't get clean, you only have maybe two or three tries before you're on your own. We're talking about serious stuff. No one has the right to expect everyone else just support them in their habit indefinitely.

So maybe we're looking at trading three strikes in prison for three strikes from society at large before it's done with you.

And, of course, we keep the right to defend ourselves from those who would steal or otherwise prey on people for their next hit.

And, of course, there is always the counter that taxing drugs is preying off the addicted. And laws for murder, rape, and theft haven't stopped those things either, so why not legalize them?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: TinySickTears

No. My point is that if you want legalization, there are lot of things that will need to be changed in the nation's mentality. Some of the drugs you want legalized are addictive enough in some individuals that it only takes one shot for them to be hooked. Meth is like this.

If we are going to let people take on that responsibility to run those risks, do you really think it then becomes society's responsibility to support and enable those who get hooked?

I think we can look at some kind of treatment program, but I can also see a cut-off for help too. If you go in and don't get clean, you only have maybe two or three tries before you're on your own. We're talking about serious stuff. No one has the right to expect everyone else just support them in their habit indefinitely.

So maybe we're looking at trading three strikes in prison for three strikes from society at large before it's done with you.

And, of course, we keep the right to defend ourselves from those who would steal or otherwise prey on people for their next hit.

im with you on all that
i dont think it should be society's responsibility to support people that get hooked.
i dont think it should be society's responsibility now.

a reply to: TinySickTears

Thing is though that a lot of people do. It's one of the mandatory services for policies in Obamacare in fact.

i dont see the argument for taxing drugs as preying on the addicted.

its not like there are only 2 categories. people that never use drugs and addicts.
there are millions of people in between that would gladly pay a tax if they could walk into a store and have their choice while not having to worry about jail.

and rape and murder is not even in the same realm so i will leave that one alone