Occult versus Esoteric - The Correct Meanings

a reply to: Willtell


Allah knows best so I won't judge, most of Mekkan Revelations hasn't been translated into English so I can't say what I think.

But tradition holds ibn Arabi a heretic...not that mystics don't revere him today, I know they do, but I have reason to believe he has not had the good influence, say, Al Ghazali did and was the type he would have written about taking esoteric interpretation to the point it contradicts the exoteric, which if properly done (eso. interpretation) should never happen.

That's according to Ghazali, not regarding Arabi but others before him and like him.

I do want to read M.Revelations but I will wait until I learn Arabic. I don't like to go by second hand opinions, and it wouldn't kill me to read it, probably is interesting and I was disappointed to discover two volumes are all that exist in English.

a reply to: Sahabi

Originally posted by Sahabi
The Mind is said to be greater than the Throne, because the Throne is fixed and static, whereas the Mind is fluid and dynamic. We may also take the Throne to represent physicality, and the Mind to represent the greater immaterial.

In my opinion the Throne of God is a concept about God, to envisage God being higher and above all…because God obviously doesn’t need an actual chair or a real physical Throne.

The mind has the ability to envisage the Throne of God; (Gods Infiniteness) only the mind of man can connected to the higher mind of God to envisage his Throne. Without the mind the Throne would not be conceivable, therefore the mind is greater.


- JC

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Ibn Arabi a heretic?

I think not, but whose tradition murderers like ISIS and the Taliban.

Arabi might be the greatest sage in history.

Any Muslims who think he is a heretic are ignorant…imho

a reply to: Joecroft

The Quran says

God's throne is upon water

This kind of stuff gets me drunk

I am at the Tavern of Ruin


The famous Light Verse of the Quran

Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not – light upon light – Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things. (al-Nur, 24/35)

This great verse seems to be referring to unlimited source(s) of light available to humans…

Also the reality that light is inward to a great degree (light is as a niche in which is a lamp) Husk and Kernel--Esoteric and Exoteric

In this regard the Husk is even a source of light( Exoteric)

Or also levels of light such as intellectual light---simple understanding and more subtle or lofty light—intuitive knowing.

One form of knowing is with the minds eye and the other is the what the Sufis call the Eye of the Heart

The niche is maybe the heart, mind, or even body but likely the Sun.

(“blessed olive tree) may be a tree in the Jannah of Eden

“Neither eastern or western) to me means perfect balanced light

the lamp is one source of light as well the glass which holds the light( as if it were a brightly shining star) could be the mind.

This is basically telling us that there is a supreme source of light inside the sun that we can get access to--- (His light is as a niche in which is a lamp). That greatest source is likened to a lamp inside a niche.

I say the niche is the Sun

The sun or Sol is an aspect of the “Soul” ATMAN that God’s greatest light resides inside of.


This inner light is what the Sufis call Lataif

Ultimately though God is so great there is never any one source of his divine light!

a reply to: Willtell

If you think "throne" is anything but a metaphor or allegory, think again.

It's related to Ascension and mysticism, Merkavah in Kabbalah, or throne-chariot.

My earlier quote, "The angels asked Allah, 'have You created anything as glorious as Your throne?' 'Yes' Allah replied, 'The mind.' "

Our minds are greater than this ascending and descending throne.

A rule for esoteric interpretation in Islam is anything that appears to anthropomorphize Allah, human attributes like fingers, the having a need for a throne, are pure allegory and not eso/exoteric, not literal at all.

I was actually going to say something about that anyway, what a coincidence.

But everything is God's "throne" if you want to be literal, just not a literal throne, a metaphorical one saying that the mind is His most glorious creation.

And that everything is His creation.

I agree 100%.

a reply to: Willtell


Yes, traditionally speaking Arabi is considered a heretic, obviously not by everyone as I said earlier.

I don't see what he has to do with ISIS, as for "greatest sage in history" that's an opinion and not a factual statement.

Not everyone thinks he is good, never mind great, obviously if he is declared a heretic.

And heretics like the M.B. LOVE Arabi, Wahhabis (also heretics) do not, it's got nothing to do with terrorism, he was declared that a long time ago. And some peaceful Sufis also like him.

Personally I hear his influence today is negative and thriving AMONGST the leadership of groups under the M.B. umbrella, terrorists, fake Muslims who are hypocrites. So if that is true then it is the people who you accuse of declaring him a heretic who are actually influenced by it, making him the source of many a heretical notion I imagine, even if it's misinterpreted, very easy to do with mystical literature.

It's not personal towards Ibn Arabi, but how it is used and who by. Not just MB psychos and militants are influenced negatively by things they can't understand. This is exploitable too, and exploited. So is the Zohar, I have that too, 2 versions actually, and I can see how.

Which, re: Arabi, as I said is not my personal judgement and I want to read his books, but only 2 out of some 25+ vols. are in English of Mekkan Revelations.

What are your favorite Arabi quotes from your personal book collection and not the one's you will Google when you realize I know you don't have any Arabi and couldn't tell the difference between Sahabi and Ghazali or Arabi?, AND it was Sahabi too!!! Good job though he did it wasn't a typical Islamic interpretation at all!!!

Do you read Arabic and have you read his books?

If so, which ones? What are the ones you DID read about, specifically?

Share in the way I have been with Ghazali, and not your weird opinion and unnecessary ISIS mentions, and I will consider taking you somewhat, just a bit, seriously.

Otherwise...you are repeating second hand opinions.

Al Ghazali, Ihya, book 2, chapter 2: Inquiry into the exoteric and esoteric, their differences

The Fifth Category (concrete words used to express abstract concepts).

The person with limited understanding goes no further than the outward meaning of the words, while the person of deep insight, on the other hand, percieves the secret within


Example: 17:44 "And there is not a thing except that it exalts Allah by His praise but you do not understand their exalting."

The dull-whitted person can only understand this by imagining that an inanimate object is endowed with life, intelligence, speech to allow it to say, "Glory be to God," in order to realize it's glorification [how it's achieved].

The person of insight, however, knows..., rather that this object glorifies God by its existence,...

By Imam Abu Hamed Al-Ghazali, "Proof of Islam" as he is called.

If it is said that the throne of God sits on water, it is because water represents permanence, unlike the foam of the sea which is not, the water itself never goes away. Sea foam represents the not permanent while the water that recreates new sea foam to replace the old, the body of water itself (the ocean), is always there and permanent.(as far as we're concerned)

That is from a specific interpretation I read yesterday unrelated to the throne, I think, but explaining the figurative meaning of water is it is permanent (as far as we are concerned).

Which means that the throne of God is on a "permanent" foundation, it is not going to change unless He wills it so.

Eternal Kingdom of God.

There is some serious esoterica going on in 1 Chronicles.

Ephraim has a son named Repha(h) as in the (ha) Rephaim, giants.

Ephra=Repha+im=Rephaim; Ephraim/Rephaim.

Beriah or Bar-Yahu (son of YHVH) has a daughter named Shaarah, Sarah (princess) +ha(the) or the princess, who builds Upper and Lower Beth-Hor-On.

Upper and Lower Egypt, obviously, Horus + On= Horon, House of Horus and On.

Resheph is another son of his who is a Biblical god, Ra-sheph.

Asher also has a Bar Yahu/Beriah, and an Ishvah.

And is the middle name of "Ahayah Asher Ahayah" told Moses, AND God of Assyria, home of the "lost" ten tribes.

I=Y so YsHVaH-s, a= YHVH.

Mannaseh's son Ham-Molech-Heth is another.

Asriel, son of the Aramaen concubine.

Much more too...

Judah has 3 children with Canaanitess Bath-Shva, 2 with Tamar, so 3/5 of ONE TRIBE, the Judahites, is half Canaanite-(Phoenician-Carthaginian).

That means Hamitic/Semitic, just like Arabs, Ishmaelites, also sons of Abraham. Ishmael was circumcised into the Covenant and was with Isaac at Abraham's funeral (PBUT), was blessed with twelve princes and though not Israelite, still part of the Abrahamic Covenant, Isaac gave Jacob his blessing but God gave Ishmael His, personally, and Jacob swindled his from Esau and his birthright.

I forgot to add, the sons of the 12 Patriarchs are repeatedly called, "Mighty."

This is significant because "El" is the word for "mighty." El means "God" also. Elohim means "Mighty Ones" or "Host of Heaven."

Nimrod, son of Cush, was "the first to be a mighty(el) one (Elohim) ON EARTH."

Cush was father of Saba (Saturn) Havilah, (hvyh, ala) Sabta(Sabbatai is the actual word for Saturn the planet, El to the Phoenicians and Israelites).

Heth is son of Canaan (Ham-molech-heth), as is Sidon, the name of the Canaanite city

Ishmael is father of Nebaoth (Nebo vs Saba, as in Sabaoth) which would mean, if Sabaoth is "of hosts", a meaning planets really, which Saturn is, Neboaoth or Nebaoth means "of Mercury or Thoth-Hermes." Interesting as he is half Egyptian and Thoth is the Egyptian version of Hanoch or Enoch, I think is shown as an ibis bird, if that's what it is called. Maybe the source for Idris or Iblis or both, but that's speculation.

Dumah is a son of Ishmael called a demon in the Zohar. But that is a coincidence I am pretty sure. Hadad as in Baal-Hadad (the first YHVH).

Keturah bore Medan (Medes), Midian (Medina?) and another Shuah. Mekkah is someone's daughter too.

Midian had a son named Hanoch/Enoch too, as did Cain making 3 (4 exist), who named the first city after Enoch ben Cain.

Edom(Esau) has a clan named "god" literally, "Elah" used 70 times in Hebrew in reference to God.

Zeruiah or Zeruyahu, "Seed of Yahu/YHVH.", sister of "begotten son (this day)" in Psalms, King David.

The Levites lived in "Beth-Shemash", House of the sun-god of Ham-Ur-Abi, and Hebron, other cities of refuge not as interesting, EXCEPT, Ana-Thoth "with its pasture lands."

Benyamin is father of "Mighty Warriors" Bela(Baal), Uzzi, Uzziel (angels); 1 Chronicles 8:6, THREE TIMES, "Mighty Warriors" 6-13.

Asher is, "Select, Mighty Warriors, chief of the princes (Baalim)"

The Nephilim are the Mighty men of old, men of renown. So is Manasseh, Ephraim.

The Anakim, Rephaim, were giants, mighty men. Manasseh lived in Bashan near Mt. Hermon of Sons of God fame and Bashan, land of Og the giant. "Mighty Warriors, famous men(of renown)." 5:24 1 Chron.

The sons of Israel are part Nephilim/Anakim/Rephaim in certain tribes.

originally posted by: Willtell
This kind of stuff gets me drunk

I can tell... you don't understand, drunkenness​and confusion are related.

You can read my Ghazali quotes for advice and explanations if you want to comprehend and not just make fun because you don't understand, and you get "drunk" off mysticism.

Try reading the books. It usually helps when learning. This is not a place to learn. Books, and people who belong to the religion at that, are the best source.


What, specifically, do you so admire about Arabi to call him that having no knowledge of his works???

Yet you are qualified to judge who among sages is great and the greatest, one of at least?

Not sound logic.

I am at the Tavern of Ruin


The famous Light Verse of the Quran

Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not – light upon light – Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things. (al-Nur, 24/35)

This great verse seems to be referring to unlimited source(s) of light available to humans…

Also the reality that light is inward to a great degree (light is as a niche in which is a lamp) Husk and Kernel--Esoteric and Exoteric

In this regard the Husk is even a source of light( Exoteric)

Or also levels of light such as intellectual light---simple understanding and more subtle or lofty light—intuitive knowing.

One form of knowing is with the minds eye and the other is the what the Sufis call the Eye of the Heart

The niche is maybe the heart, mind, or even body but likely the Sun.

(“blessed olive tree) may be a tree in the Jannah of Eden

“Neither eastern or western) to me means perfect balanced light

the lamp is one source of light as well the glass which holds the light( as if it were a brightly shining star) could be the mind.

This is basically telling us that there is a supreme source of light inside the sun that we can get access to--- (His light is as a niche in which is a lamp). That greatest source is likened to a lamp inside a niche.

I say the niche is the Sun

The sun or Sol is an aspect of the “Soul” ATMAN that God’s greatest light resides inside of.


This inner light is what the Sufis call Lataif

Ultimately though God is so great there is never any one source of his divine light!

Again if you don't understand, it's not because it doesn't make sense. But because you can't make sense of it.

You. You are a husk/shell man, the kernel eludes you.

You say "Sufis believe", "Sufis say."

Do you know there are literally 100's of different Sufi orders and the only thing that they all agree on is Shahada, Quran, Sunnah if you are Sunni as Shia can be Sufi too and don't use usually Bukhari or our Hadiths, and that is about it. And mystical, Gnostic leanings, ARE Gnostics literally and by their own admission, not that it is something that one would deny just you probably don't know this, most people don't know what Gnostic means outside a Christian context.

There are so many orders "Sufi" doesn't describe one tradition but many different traditions and orders.

So you can not say "Sufis believe" you need to narrow it down to Order or even the name of a Saint, Rumi for instance, or Ash'aris, Mu'tazila, Qadariyya, Khawarij, hundreds literally. Some extinct some thriving still.

Some are fully under M.B. control, unfortunately, as their tolerance makes them easy marks for infiltration by the M.B. and F.M.B.

Merkaba mysticism means, Mer/Mar=lord; kaba means the cube, lord of the kabba?

I know it means chariot-throne, just not linguistically.

The throne has 4 faces though right? New Jerusalem is a cube too that descends, in the shape of the Kaaba, in Apocalypse.

Rabbis wear tefillin, cubes with Hebrew letters, wrapped around the arm SEVEN times, as many times as pilgrims circle the Kaaba.

I read an 8th century pseudepigraph attributed to Simeon ben Yohai, who the Zohar would be attributed to and is a Talmud hero-sage.

He attributes by revelation from Metatron(Enoch of 3 Enoch, Rabbi Ishmael and Merkaba literature), the interpretation of Mohammed (saws) as God's Prophet and "the rider on the camel" of Isaiah, a Messianic agent and a "salvation for the Jews."

Umar is given much honor too, it is clear that the Jewish/Arab disagreement is no older than Sabbatai Svi and Mehmet IV, the rise in Sabbatean-Frankist-Donmeh heretical Jews like Ataturk.

Because from the beginning of the end of the Muslim-pagan, some Jews too but not many, wars, religious tolerance was the norm and each community could govern their own by their laws and participate in regional govt, ended "compulsion in religion."

"Secrets of Simeon ben Yohai" available online, 8th century Apocalypse pro-Islam.

In fact when the Iberian peninsula was inhabited by Canaanite/Hebrews, Heber is Iber, as is Hiber(nia), Hyper-Borea and even Uber, all come from Heber.

When Islam rose the Muslims were invited by the Jews of Spain to settle, inhabit and protect the Jews from European anti-Semites.

Spain, Cordoba and Toledo, was the crown jewel of Europe and a cosmopolitan society, very modern with Universities, hospitals, freedom of religion and equality unlike anything north of Spain.

Jews, Muslims and knowledge starved Christians from Europe would move to get an education and without Muslim influence science would not be what it is today, Europe learned science from the Muslims who advanced everything that the Greeks handed down into workable science and perfected mathematics, algebra, algorithms, etc.

Jews did a lot of the translating and with Ibn Gabirol were reintroduced to (neo) Platonism and developed Kabbalah and its literature which reinterprets Torah and some Tanach.

Sufism was influential to Kabbalah as Syrian monks to Sufism, too, which adopts any tradition if it can be made to fit.

Then came Sabbatai(Saturn) Zevi the false messiah and just tainted it, it's just recovering today actually.

Frankism, the Donmeh and now FMB and BB, MB are all united. Not getting better either, no respect for life.

a reply to: Joecroft

Exactly, everything is the throne of God.

And the mind greater than all of creation.

Allah is the lamp, light pillar, "honour of mind."

Excellent interpretation!

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Allah admits to being the Christian Satan.

The light of lights.. The word of God in a mirror is a bit backwards, isn't it.

Bunch of pixel worshippers.

a reply to: BigBangWasAnEcho

You have an interesting life, nothing better to do than call "God" "Satan" because it's a different language and a religion you feel it is ok to slander?

Winner.

originally posted by: BigBangWasAnEcho
a reply to: Disturbinatti

Allah admits to being the Christian Satan.

The light of lights.. The word of God in a mirror is a bit backwards, isn't it.

Bunch of pixel worshippers.

Are you lodging a complaint about tv consumerism? Because people don't ACTUALLY worship televisions, never mind lone pixels. That is a weird thing to say about a random group of people who you don't know.

Word of God is an epithet (like​ nickname) for Jesus (pbuh) the Messiah, who resides in Heaven and doesn't need a mirror.

Quite frankly I don't know why you brought up "mirrors", that's backwards because you are answering a question unasked by me.

None of what you said means anything, literally it is meaningless. The moon can't be the sun too, Allah is God, Satan is a djinn in Islam, an angel in Xtianity and enemy of God. Samael is Satan in Judaism, one for death one for destruction, angel of.

We don't believe in the Christian ideal of Satan as a threat to God/Allah; just a fool. I think it is why you think Satan IS God, birds of a feather.

That was what is called gibberish, nonsense, and the words of a fake philosopher, "pixel worshippers" you heard somewhere or is just meaningless rhetoric about people who you don't know.

Fun fact, gibberish comes from Geber, an anglicized name of an Arab mystic of great significance, first published the "Emerald Tablets" and other Hermetica LATER translated into Latin so those Dark age ignoramuses could learn something. They don't think he is gibberish today, Alchemists or philosophers.

Your words are gibberish though. Think them through first so they mean something.

As for this "admits being..."

That's just your uneducation talking. It's the same God/Allah, linguistically, culturally and every other way too.

Al(the) Ilah(god)= Allah(God) in Arabic, and in Arabic CHRISTIAN BIBLES.

So you lied.

a reply to: BigBangWasAnEcho

I am sorry if my participation in this thread has been much more than your's, I read more, I know more.

Not a guess either, you just spoke gibberish with no meaning and said Allah "admits to being the Satan" of His Arabic Tanach and NT.

Show me where "He" does this "admit"ing?

Don't bother I know you are just a jealous fool who can't hang with esoteric Wisdom. A husk guy.

a reply to: BigBangWasAnEcho

Don't get me wrong I get it, you want to be an esoteric philosopher but can't contribute like I've been doing so out of everyone who participated you select the guy who participated the most, and gave quality examples which you can not do.

So you have to go all Islamophobe because it's the most intelligent thing you could imagine, insulting God and religion, Islam specifically, just makes you a coward.


Shaitan or Satan is also in the Qur'an btw, another of many things you don't know because you don't care. You want to go online, hate, talk gibberish and eat some spam, I get it.

Have fun!