Abortion - there is only one question that matters

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

Where is the choice for the life lost, again?? Oh, that's right, they don't get one.

That falls on the mother or parent of the baby to be born because they do not have the ability to choose for themselves. You may not like that, but that is how it has to be. It's either that or we give that choice over to someone else who's not even involved or connected to the child at all. Be it the state, some official, or whomever. To me that is a far worse way to go than simply giving that choice to the mother who is actually pregnant.

Look, lady, I get what you're saying. I'm not some pro-baby killer monster like you probably think. But when you look at this situation there is really only one clear answer. First of all you can either Force one choice on everyone or allow them to choose for themselves. Of those two choices obviously allowing each person to choose for themselves is the right thing to do. That doesn't mean they'll always make the better choice or not regret their choice later on. But to force others into something like birthing a child without exception is just madness.

I understand the idea of abortion is murder to you. So why not fight against it in ways that reduce abortion, especially late term abortion, without using the force of law to make it illegal. Support better birth control awareness. Better sex education. Male birth control. Things like that so that abortions need not happen in the first place. That seems like the win win way to go. Rather than forcing your way of living life on everyone everywhere. That will never be accepted by people, ever. You need to allow people to make choices for themselves in life even if you don't agree with those choices. That's just how it works. You have your life. They have theirs. You make your choices. Let them make theirs. Guide them if they want it, but don't force them and they'll do the same back to you.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

Where is the choice for the life lost, again?? Oh, that's right, they don't get one.

That falls on the mother or parent of the baby to be born because they do not have the ability to choose for themselves. You may not like that, but that is how it has to be. It's either that or we give that choice over to someone else who's not even involved or connected to the child at all. Be it the state, some official, or whomever. To me that is a far worse way to go than simply giving that choice to the mother who is actually pregnant.

A newborn can't choose for themselves, either. Should we make it legal to kill them, too? No, it does not "have to be" that way. A woman can choose to not become pregnant. Not talking about rae cases here, either, and those are a very small percentage of abortions.

Look, lady, I get what you're saying. I'm not some pro-baby killer monster like you probably think. But when you look at this situation there is really only one clear answer. First of all you can either Force one choice on everyone or allow them to choose for themselves. Of those two choices obviously allowing each person to choose for themselves is the right thing to do. That doesn't mean they'll always make the better choice or not regret their choice later on. But to force others into something like birthing a child without exception is just madness.

The problem there is that women aren't being given honest information, from the pro-abortion side. Most would not go through with it, if they knew a human being was involved. They believe the lie, and aren't shown the reality, and they make a decision based on incomplete information. Seeing an ultrasound, a moving baby (and by 8-12 weeks, it looks like a baby), most would not be able to have an abortion. I can totally understand a pregnancy being tough. The timing can be bad, finances can be a problem, etc. I can't imagine, though, ending a life, because the timing wasn't what I'd planned. Birthing a child isn't as traumatic as aborting one. Women who have done both, and spoken of the abortion, regretting it, will testify to that. Is childbirth easy? Not for most of us! Been there, done that! One of mine got stuck, and I can't begin to describe the pain involved there. I also know about pain from a D&C, after a miscarriage. Two of those, and one, it didn't complete. The baby was definitely gone - you could tell in ultrasounds, no doubt - but the miscarriage didn't finish. The pain after that procedure was unendurable; far, far worse than the worst delivery, plus, that baby was GONE. I have listened to testimony from port-abortive girls and women, and even spoken in person to some. It's not a decision they'd encourage anyone to make! Ever. Not only do they lose that child; they have to bear the knowledge that they chose to. That's a massive would to the person. One lady, who spoke of having several abortions, and regretted this, was unsure if she'd even be accepted, or forgiven. She was accepted, though. Yes, she did something wrong, but who among us has not? She repented, and that's what counts.

I understand the idea of abortion is murder to you. So why not fight against it in ways that reduce abortion, especially late term abortion, without using the force of law to make it illegal. Support better birth control awareness. Better sex education. Male birth control. Things like that so that abortions need not happen in the first place. That seems like the win win way to go. Rather than forcing your way of living life on everyone everywhere. That will never be accepted by people, ever. You need to allow people to make choices for themselves in life even if you don't agree with those choices. That's just how it works. You have your life. They have theirs. You make your choices. Let them make theirs. Guide them if they want it, but don't force them and they'll do the same back to you.

I fight any way I can. Knowledge is important, and I can share what I know. I had very early ultrasounds, due to pregnancy complications, and I know what you can see. Yes, all worked out well there. God was watching that one!! But I KNOW. Her face was visible, and if you saw her now, in her teens, you'd recognize her from the 11.5 week ultrasound profile shot. I know that's a person. That's well within the age when most abortions occur, too. Have you seen the little feet pins, showing the actual size of a baby's feet at about ten weeks? They are accurate.

I don't want to see people ruin their lives by making a very bad decision. Abortion is never a good one. Plus, there is a very real evil associated with that industry. Take that however you like, but it's real. Even putting that aside, science states human life begins at conception. Our laws are supposed to grant equal rights to all. That means the unborn, too.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

A newborn can't choose for themselves, either.

That's correct. So who is in charge of deciding and choosing for it??? The parents.

Yes, she did something wrong, but who among us has not? She repented, and that's what counts.

I know multiple women who've had an abortion and are glad they did. We both have personal stories that we can tell. Yours will be about how bad it was while mine will range from both good and bad. So trying to blanket them all as one type of experience isn't being honest. Obviously they aren't all horrible experiences or there wouldn't be so many nor so many repeat ones happening.

You're religious programming is also starting to show a little.

Our laws are supposed to grant equal rights to all. That means the unborn, too.

I realize that to you all babies, unborn and born, are viewed as special little precious treasures. Which is fine, I guess. Not everyone holds that same view. Especially when just a embryo or fetus.

Our laws also state that until you're 18 you're under the authority of someone else and don't even have full rights yet. Besides trying to use equal rights like that is questionable at best because legally corporations are considered people too, which you and I both know is not the truth either.

But if you really want equal rights for all, then how about the right to choose one's own life instead of forcing them to do what you think is best?? That's just a hypocritical statement to say you want equal rights for all but only if it means they do as they're told.

Also, I don't think the unborn have rights anyway. After all it says "All men are BORN equal." We're talking about the unborn and nothing was said about them.

originally posted by: mOjOm

I know multiple women who've had an abortion and are glad they did.

As in me.

I have zero guilt and zero regrets and would do it again in the same circumstance.

I would have been very pissed off if I didn't get to personally make that decision.

Abortion - there is only one question that matters: YES! "YOU who are pregnant, what is YOUR decision?".

It is no one else's business.

a reply to: Annee

See, there's one now.

Hi Annee.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

A newborn can't choose for themselves, either.

That's correct. So who is in charge of deciding and choosing for it??? The parents.

By that logic, parents would be able to legally kill their newborns.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
Yes, she did something wrong, but who among us has not? She repented, and that's what counts.

I know multiple women who've had an abortion and are glad they did. We both have personal stories that we can tell. Yours will be about how bad it was while mine will range from both good and bad. So trying to blanket them all as one type of experience isn't being honest. Obviously they aren't all horrible experiences or there wouldn't be so many nor so many repeat ones happening.

You're religious programming is also starting to show a little.

I have spoken to someone who claimed to be happy she'd done it, but she wasn't, in fact, happy. That was apparent to anyone who knew her.

Programming? When you toss out BS like that, you lose credibility.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
Our laws are supposed to grant equal rights to all. That means the unborn, too.

I realize that to you all babies, unborn and born, are viewed as special little precious treasures. Which is fine, I guess. Not everyone holds that same view. Especially when just a embryo or fetus.

Our laws also state that until you're 18 you're under the authority of someone else and don't even have full rights yet. Besides trying to use equal rights like that is questionable at best because legally corporations are considered people too, which you and I both know is not the truth either.

But if you really want equal rights for all, then how about the right to choose one's own life instead of forcing them to do what you think is best?? That's just a hypocritical statement to say you want equal rights for all but only if it means they do as they're told.

Also, I don't think the unborn have rights anyway. After all it says "All men are BORN equal." We're talking about the unborn and nothing was said about them.

The same laws say one cannot kill their born child. And, no, the law says "created equal", not born.

This ones easy, Life begins at Sperm or Egg (even before they meet). Masturbation should be punishable (at least for men). Menstruation should be punishable (for women). Abortion should be illegal. Miscarriages should be illegal and punishable. All violent crimes should be punishable by death.

How can you fools not see this is what god wanted.

I'd say about 6 weeks .

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: mOjOm

I know multiple women who've had an abortion and are glad they did.

As in me.

I have zero guilt and zero regrets and would do it again in the same circumstance.

I would have been very pissed off if I didn't get to personally make that decision.

Abortion - there is only one question that matters: YES! "YOU who are pregnant, what is YOUR decision?".

It is no one else's business.

In cases were the mothers health is not an issue the father should have some say as well don't you think.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

By that logic, parents would be able to legally kill their newborns.

Ya know, that's not a bad idea either.

After all, killing babies was ok with the OT God of the Bible. Maybe they had the right idea after all.

originally posted by: scraedtosleep

In cases were the mothers health is not an issue the father should have some say as well don't you think.

He can try and convince the mother to keep it I suppose but other than that what else would you recommend he do???

It's not growing inside him. At that point he's more of a supporting character.

Once it crosses the line of forcing the mother to birth a child she doesn't want to, you've gone too far.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Remember: abortions happen for a reason. Being truly pro-life doesn’t have to reflect a political stance of legal abolition (it can, but shouldn’t be limited to this as it has previously), but can reflect a position of being determined to actually reduce and end abortions by addressing why they’re happening. There’s a huge difference in those two positions; and simply abolishing abortions won’t actually end them, either. The pro-life movement has wasted a generation seeking a solution that isn’t a comprehensive solution, and we’ve gotta fix that– we need to be people dedicated to the messy work on the ground that will actually reduce or eliminate the practice.

"Pro-life needs to be redefined to mean what it says. Pro-life. All life. Unborn life. Post-born life. Immigrant life. Iraqi life. Afghani life. Convicted murder life. Life of the innocent, life of the guilty. If God made it, we say it’s valuable– and we don’t let culture diminish that value regardless of whether or not that life is obscured by a maternity dress, death row bars, or by a pixelated drone camera. If pro-life doesn’t stand for life for everyone, it’s not really pro-life at all."~Benjamin L. Corey

I consider myself an Independent Progressive

I'm going to go with the pro life definition quoted above. I would consider it out of character for myself to neglect the weak and helpless. The unborn child in the womb fits 'weak and helpless' like a glove in my opinion.

I'm in the minority here with my political stance but it's my beliefs on the subject.

To put it another way...

"Compassion isn't cheap, and it's defined by its longevity: If we are to take seriously a cultural commitment to life, which I believe we should, then we'll conduct ourselves with mercy and sensitivity to the difficulties that bring women to choose abortion, and will commit ourselves to concrete political change aimed at reducing those struggles."~Elizabeth Stoker

“The unborn child is the ultimate immigrant...The analogy between the unborn and the immigrant may seem strained. I fear, however, that it is painfully to the point.”

“The same people who talk incessantly of human rights are willing to deny the most helpless and vulnerable of all human beings the most important right of all.~Rosemary Bottcher

“Apparently these people do not understand the difference between contraception and abortion,” concluded Bottcher. “Their arguments defending abortion would be perfectly reasonable if they were talking about contraception. When they insist upon ‘reproductive freedom’ and ‘motherhood by choice’ they forget that ‘pregnant’ means ‘being with child.’ A pregnant woman has already reproduced; she is already a mother.”~Rosemary Bottcher

Now, do I believe in the full funding of social programs to care for this infant and its mother throughout childhood? Absolutely -- I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

By that logic, parents would be able to legally kill their newborns.

Ya know, that's not a bad idea either.

After all, killing babies was ok with the OT God of the Bible. Maybe they had the right idea after all.

And we are done. Don't bother with responding to me.

originally posted by: Gumerk

I consider myself an Independent Progressive

I'm going with pro life on this one. I would consider it out of character for myself to neglect the weak and helpless. The unborn child in the womb fits 'weak and helpless' like a glove in my opinion.

I'm in the minority here with my political stance but it's my beliefs on the subject.

To put it another way...

Now, do I believe in the full funding of social programs to care for this infant and its mother throughout childhood? Absolutely -- I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't

Now this I can understand. I'm still not changing my opinion to Pro-Life, but can find no fault within your thinking. You're consistent in your reasoning.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Out of curiosity was it the joke about letting parents kill their newborns or the part about the OT God allowing children to be killed that ended the conversation???

Because the OT God thing is true and the joke was honestly just me joking with you.

Since you probably won't answer now though I'll just have to pick one I suppose.