Abortion - there is only one question that matters

I read this the other day and it SICKENED me.

You want to force women to have kids? In case you haven't noticed - PEOPLE SUCK. They're all ASSHOLES and the less of them the better.

Take myself for instance. I SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN BORN. And I've had nothing but a life of ABJECT MISERY and I SO WISH MY PARENTS HAD ABORTED ME!

Who's ridiculous idea was this?

Oh, right: My "father's". So sayeth my mother, but she's a liar too. I take it to be a "save the marriage" type of thing. And they got divorced anyway.

I DID NOT NEED TO BE HERE! I SHOULD'VE BEEN ABORTED! IT WOULD HAVE SAVED ME SO MUCH MISERY!

I literally HATE being here and I'd kill myself if had the nerve to do so. Life is TOO HARD, nothing goes right, people are mean awful ASSHOLES, and I DID NOT NEED TO BE HERE.

Looks like the OP here did some kind of fertility things - if twins were produced. And so one died? So what? It was like a few days old, how attached can you be? What kind of a man are you, anyway? You do know, right - that one kid, two kids, three kids, four kids - complicate the drunken party life that you REALLY WANT - so why have ANY kids - at all?

My parents, my friend right here with me too, and EVERYBODY that we know - we all came from "middle class suburban areas" - literally just like a propaganda TV show - and "dad" took off. I want to make this perfectly clear - we are not "trash" types, no, in fact the opposite. Parents were educated, had good jobs, planned for it all, worked for it all, moved to expensive suburban areas, and also - this was LONG AFTER any "60s cultural revolution" took place. So if they wanted "an alternative lifestyle" - they could've chose that. (And this is why I'm a Liberal - let people choose other lives, don't force people to conform, because not all can, and those who aren't suited for it - guess who pays the price? THE KIDS.)

But they went ahead and chose this life anyway. Ill suited as they were.

And then "dad" took off, Mom became a Single Mother, my "father" NEVER paid child support, same with friend here, so there's two right here, as well as EVERYBODY we know.

And following this scenario - Single Mom is plunged into poverty and we kids had to work much harder. Not to mention how angry and bitter they were. And guess who was BLAMED? Go ahead and guess.

And guess who took all manner of vicious BS because "parents were divorced". You don't dare deviate in suburbia and guess who took the crap?

I SO WISH I WAS NEVER BORN! I hate being alive, I hate this life, I hate all mean and awful people - who crapped all over me when I did nothing wrong - I DIDN'T ASK TO BE HERE!!! They hated my guts and tried to pawn me off on the state. And all the rest of the Conformists hated my guts too! The Divorcees child. Bastard child. And I did nothing wrong! I didn't ask to be here!

Friend here agrees 100%.

YOU DON'T KNOW what it's like to be an unwanted child. I was thrown out of my "home" at the age of 14. It was such a hard struggle and so much work. And my survival was thanks to ONLY me! I did it all! I have no "family". Same for my friend here, exact same, and exact same for just about EVERYONE we know.

And you're 56 years old and having kids???? You'll be dead before they're even mature. ASSHOLERY IN ACTION RIGHT HERE.

I am GLAD the one died so it won't have to suffer this awful life full of mean people! Too bad the other didn't die too.

LIFE SUCKS AND ALL PEOPLE SUCK. And you've condemned another one into existence among these jackal assholes.

And you want to tell others to do the same?

And I'll bet not only ALL the money I have - but also my vital organs - that YOU, "DAD" - are hitting on any younger female you come across. It's you old dads that ALWAYS hit on and sexually harass younger women like us in the work place. CONGRATULATIONS! YOU have just condemned your daughter to this.

But I'm sure you have no worries over that since YOU are probably trawling for a new younger wife, or a stray lay, right now, that likely occupies more of your time than taking care of your kid or anything.

In summation: You suck, all of you FORCED BIRTHERS suck, and don't you DARE look at me when you tire of it all in approximately 3 to 5 years.

I detest people like you. And the GALL you have to preach at others.

You want the kid's view? RIGHT HERE. I wish I had never been born. There was NO REASON for me to exist and I've had nothing but a life of MISERY because of it.

PEOPLE WHO SHOULDN'T HAVE KIDS - SHOULD NOT HAVE KIDS.

And this is what abortion is FOR.
Birth control first, when that fails - abort.

I shouldn't exist and I SO WISH I didn't! I'd kill myself, but I lack the guts to do it.

a reply to: FalseMove

Well, then I'm glad to see you decided to share that which sickened you so much with everyone else. Maybe you should comment about it so it at least looks like you have some input on it rather than just spreading it around for no reason.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: FalseMove

Well, then I'm glad to see you decided to share that which sickened you so much with everyone else. Maybe you should comment about it so it at least looks like you have some input on it rather than just spreading it around for no reason.

Excuse me, what?

As I said above - people who shouldn't have kids - SHOULD NOT HAVE KIDS.

Because THOSE KIDS - have to deal with a CRAPPY LIFE.

Does that make it more clear?

If it isn't clear - me, and people like me, should NOT have been here and ALL we got is complaints about what pieces of # we were and how THEY wished we were never born, and non stop wall to wall hatred and abuse.

DOES THAT MAKE IT MORE CLEAR TO YOU???????????????????????

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: FalseMove

Well, then I'm glad to see you decided to share that which sickened you so much with everyone else. Maybe you should comment about it so it at least looks like you have some input on it rather than just spreading it around for no reason.

Also - I DETEST people like YOU because you BLAME ME for being born when I DID NOT ASK TO BE HERE.

This is yet another example of why I hate being alive.

And also - people like the above BLAME ME - for saying anything at all.

See?

Right here.

a reply to: mOjOm

I didn't realize that you wrote that. I thought it was something you read somewhere and were reposting it.

a reply to: FalseMove

Also I don't blame you at all. If that's how you feel then that's how you feel.

You can blame whoever you want as far as I'm concerned.

Have you told all that to your parents yet???

If so what did they say??

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Really??? So you think birthing the child to the crackhead mother who decided to put it in the microwave was a good idea???

Or the woman who gives birth in the middle of walking down the street only to then cut the cord and throw it in the trash to suffer a very short life in garbage is still a worthy life and one of compassion. Because I don't. If I was that child I'd much rather someone spare me those hours or days of helpless existence until my brutal fate and let me out of that whole thing as early as possible.

That some people have killed a small baby isn't a valid excuse for making it legal to kill an unborn baby. Logic fail.

originally posted by: tanstaafl
I have been giving this a lot of thought lately, as I watch my now 2 year old daughter growing up.

I think less about her twin brother now than I did the first year after they were born, and how he struggled for 10 long days to survive after the surgery to correct his heart defect - the longest 10 days of my life. I never even got to hug him, only hold his tiny little hand and watch his little heart beating faster than I thought was possible while he was hooked into all these tubes and a hyperventilator (to try to help remove the excess CO2). They left his chest open after the surgery, so I literally was watching his heart beating.

I'm now 56 years old (yes, an old fart to have a 2 year old daughter), and I honestly never in my wildest dreams imagined being a father would feel the way it does.

I would like to try to change the nature of the abortion argument into one that seeks common ground, and where the one, single question - the only question that really matters - can be discussed rationally, without the emotional baggage that people who have been engaged in this debate for any length of time usually bring to the table. If I reach just one person, that would be more than good enough for me.

So, as for common ground, I hope everyone can agree that no one - in their right mind - would advocate that it is OK to kill a newborn child, or that such an act would be anything other than a horrible crime of murder.

Once there is agreement on this, it really should become crystal clear that the entire argument hinges on the answer to one, simple, question. It isn't a new question, we've all heard it before.

When does Life begin?

I honestly don't understand all of the rage surrounding this one little question, but in an attempt to get people who think they already know the answer to this question to give it a second thought, I would like to rephrase the question a little...

If you take a newborn child, and start stepping backwards in that child's life, one heartbeat at a time, at what point - at which heartbeat - does that small, tiny, helpless child become a blob of flesh that you can casually rip out of a woman's womb and discard like last weeks leftover ham?

No other question is of any consequence, and I think this very important point gets lost in the very heated arguments about abortion.

So when does 'life' begin? Some people believe it is the second after the baby is born and draws its first breath. I think that people who believe this ... have never witnessed an abortion.

I personally believe that the *potential* of the life is what is most important. I believe that, because in the vast majority of cases, a normal reasonably healthy woman who gets pregnant will have a normal healthy baby, the unborn baby should have the same protections under the law that the mother herself enjoys, and that the baby will enjoy the moment it is born.

But based on my rephrased question above, maybe the point in time that I can live with is when that tiny little heart starts beating. I was surprised to learn that this happens at just 18 days (less than 3 weeks) into the pregnancy, which is often before the woman even knows she is pregnant.

I'll be quiet now, and think about little John Alexander, what he might look like now, and how much he'd probably be fighting with his sister, while I'm on my way to pick her up from daycare.

OP, my heart goes out to you, I have been fortunate in not having lost a child.

I am in the pro-choice camp with limits, not a pro-abortionist as some like to claim.

Until people decide to educate their children, provide birth control, plan b etc, accidental pregnancies will happen, and as since the beginning of time, women will seek to end them for a multitude of reasons. If abortion is made illegal, they will seek back alley abortions, or other solutions. My thought is, better safe and legal, than unsafe and illegal.

May all of the peace that life can provide follow you all of your days, you have faced enough,

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

That some people have killed a small baby isn't a valid excuse for making it legal to kill an unborn baby. Logic fail.

I'm talking about the kids born with abnormalities because their parents were doing dope while pregnant. Or the parents who spend the first handful of years abusing their kid or worse. Sure it's easy for you to say they should go ahead and still have it, you don't have to take care of it. You also don't have to take the abuse the parents do to it either. You just get to sit there oblivious to it all and patting yourself on the back for your moral superiority.

You don't know what reasons someone may have for needing an abortion, nor do you have to help or do anything if they can't get one.

But that's what's so good about being Pro-Choice. You can choose what you think is right and so can they. You wouldn't agree to someone else making that choice for you so what makes you think it's ok for you to make it for someone else??? That's a double standard which makes you on the wrong side from the start.

The one important question is, when will there be a reliable contraceptive for men? Then the churches cant bitch and complain about its use.
Safe contraceptives that boys and girls can go on, and take until they choose to have kids and will be provided for free.

The one important question is, when will there be a reliable contraceptive for men? Then the churches cant bitch and complain about its use.
Safe contraceptives that boys and girls can go on, and take until they choose to have kids and will be provided for free.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

That some people have killed a small baby isn't a valid excuse for making it legal to kill an unborn baby. Logic fail.

I'm talking about the kids born with abnormalities because their parents were doing dope while pregnant. Or the parents who spend the first handful of years abusing their kid or worse. Sure it's easy for you to say they should go ahead and still have it, you don't have to take care of it. You also don't have to take the abuse the parents do to it either. You just get to sit there oblivious to it all and patting yourself on the back for your moral superiority.

You don't know what reasons someone may have for needing an abortion, nor do you have to help or do anything if they can't get one.

But that's what's so good about being Pro-Choice. You can choose what you think is right and so can they. You wouldn't agree to someone else making that choice for you so what makes you think it's ok for you to make it for someone else??? That's a double standard which makes you on the wrong side from the start.

Again, that some one abuses their child is not a valid reason to allow them to kill said child in utero. Nor are possible birth defects. As for claiming that no one else takes action, or even cares, about such things, that's a crock, and you know it. What was that again about moral superiority?? Better check your mirror.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Actually I think those are definitely valid reasons just to name a few.

All you seem to care about is making sure everyone gives birth once pregnant regardless of the circumstances. Well that's easy for you to make that choice since you aren't the person who has to take on raising the kid.

I'm also not claiming any moral superiority here. I'm saying give everyone the same choice. Nothing superior about that. It's as fair as you can get.

What gives you the right and authority to make decisions for other people and their lives???

We both know you wouldn't accept the same treatment in return so why should they???

How many kids have you adopted BTW??

How many mothers in need are you out giving help to in raising their kids???

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Actually I think those are definitely valid reasons just to name a few.

Who are you, who is any of us, to decide that someone's "quality of life" wouldn't be good enough to give them a chance to live at all?? How arrogant!!

All you seem to care about is making sure everyone gives birth once pregnant regardless of the circumstances. Well that's easy for you to make that choice since you aren't the person who has to take on raising the kid.

I care about giving each person a chance to have a life, without assuming that means I am personally responsible for said life. Do you take on personal responsibility for all who are not murdered? Do you take into your home every child who is abused? If not, don't complain about what happens to them! THAT is what you are using as an excuse. That's BS.

I'm also not claiming any moral superiority here. I'm saying give everyone the same choice. Nothing superior about that. It's as fair as you can get.

What gives you the right and authority to make decisions for other people and their lives???

Do you even hear yourself? Assuming that one won't have a good enough life to live IS claiming some superiority. What gives you that right?

We both know you wouldn't accept the same treatment in return so why should they???

How many kids have you adopted BTW??

How many mothers in need are you out giving help to in raising their kids???

How many potential murder victims have you housed? How many abused kids have you sheltered? Claiming that someone can't protest a murder, simply because they do not personally support the potential victim, is beyond ridiculous! That has to be the lamest argument for abortion I have ever heard.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

No, you have it backwards. You're trying to force people to do what you want them to do. I'm on the side of letting them choose for themselves. You're arrogance is what is forcing someone. I'm supporting choice for each person. That is what you Pro-Lifers never seem to understand.

Again you have it backwards. I'm not responsible for someone else having a kid. Plus I support them having the choice of whether or not to actually have it. You are forcing them to have it whether they want it or not. Therefore why don't you pitch in and help them when they do. You're the one making them have it, not me. This is why your argument fails. Because you are the one forcing one option on everyone, not me. I support choice and them taking responsibility for their own life.

Face it, you and I will never agree on this. But the fact is that it is YOU who is forcing people to do what you want them to do. Not me. I support them choosing for themselves what they want to do. I'm not making them do anything at all. I support choices because choices is what I would also want. I don't want to be forced in to doing what someone else chooses for me. So I treat others how I want to be treated. YOU are the one dictating what others have to do even if they don't want to. YOU are the authoritarian. YOU are the Dictator. Not me.

So if you want to control others lives and force them to live how you want them to live then that means you own them and control them. So if that's what you want then you should also take responsibility for them. Otherwise let them choose for themselves. It's that simple.

My thoughts on this, are that if you abort a foetus at an early stage, it's not murder. There is no self-awareness. No consciousness. As such, you're not taking away any experiences, any loves, any losses, dreams or hopes.

It's not ideal, I agree. But the bottom line is that many people are not in a position to raise a child. They can't afford it, or they're not mentally or physically capable of doing so. There are enough kids in the system looking for a home as it is, without forcing everyone to have a baby further to making an error of judgement, or suffering a failure of contraception - or of course, rape.

I honestly can't understand how anyone can expect a woman to look into the eyes of a child who is the result of rape, for decades. Nobody should have to go through that.

But the point is that we live in a world where we're rapidly becoming incapable of supporting the population. What good is it forcing more and more kids into inadequate care services just to make a point? It's not right.

For these reasons, I have to support abortion. Not as a form of contraception - but as a last resort. Women should have the right to choose. Nobody - nobody should have the right to dictate to a woman that she cannot have an abortion. Especially not when it's an old man in a suit quoting the bible. It's just not right.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

No, you have it backwards. You're trying to force people to do what you want them to do. I'm on the side of letting them choose for themselves. You're arrogance is what is forcing someone. I'm supporting choice for each person. That is what you Pro-Lifers never seem to understand.

Again you have it backwards. I'm not responsible for someone else having a kid. Plus I support them having the choice of whether or not to actually have it. You are forcing them to have it whether they want it or not. Therefore why don't you pitch in and help them when they do. You're the one making them have it, not me. This is why your argument fails. Because you are the one forcing one option on everyone, not me. I support choice and them taking responsibility for their own life.

Face it, you and I will never agree on this. But the fact is that it is YOU who is forcing people to do what you want them to do. Not me. I support them choosing for themselves what they want to do. I'm not making them do anything at all. I support choices because choices is what I would also want. I don't want to be forced in to doing what someone else chooses for me. So I treat others how I want to be treated. YOU are the one dictating what others have to do even if they don't want to. YOU are the authoritarian. YOU are the Dictator. Not me.

So if you want to control others lives and force them to live how you want them to live then that means you own them and control them. So if that's what you want then you should also take responsibility for them. Otherwise let them choose for themselves. It's that simple.

No, you have it backwards. You want to allow people to kill their own children, instead of taking responsibility for them. The time for birth control is before sex, not after. Are you paying support for anyone else's children? Do you support people raising their own kids? How about neglect laws? Don't demand someone feed their kids, unless you plan to pay for it.

You're right on one thing; we won't ever agree, unless you change your position. Mine will not change. I have SEEN a heart beating, at 5.5 weeks. I have SEEN hands and feet, fingers and toes, and the FACE of a child, qt under 12 weeks. That's a baby. Aborting is murder.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

At 5.5 weeks you're not even a fetus yet let alone a baby or child.

No, I'm not changing my position of allowing someone a choice. Because it doesn't involve me so I'm not making choices for someone else just like I don't want them making choices for me.

You want to dictate peoples lives for them, fine. Then don't complain when someone dictates how you must live your life. Because that is what you support.

For me I choose to allow others to choose for themselves. Just like I expect them to allow me to choose for myself.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

At 5.5 weeks you're not even a fetus yet let alone a baby or child.

At 5.5 weeks, with a beating heart, one is indeed a person!! You use whatever labels and excuses you want; I have seen an ultrasound that early! I KNOW better.

No, I'm not changing my position of allowing someone a choice. Because it doesn't involve me so I'm not making choices for someone else just like I don't want them making choices for me.

You want to dictate peoples lives for them, fine. Then don't complain when someone dictates how you must live your life. Because that is what you support.

Where is the choice for the life lost, again?? Oh, that's right, they don't get one.