Perpetual Motion in Subatomic Particles

The subatomic forces are constantly moving the subatomic particles around each other. Isn't this an example of perpetual motion? Or do they stop eventually. Also, Do they require any energy to move? If not, wouldn't this be over 100% efficiency? Would it be possible to harness the energy of the electron cloud for our own use?

It dosen't just happen in the sub atomic world. Consider an object moving thru space with zero resistance the object will continue moving forever. When energy is required to keep a constant speed that is the result of resistance. If you take the energy from something moving then it would stop moving.

I think the answer is that the subatomic "particles" are behaving as a wave. This problem comes up all the time im afraid. It's very difficult to understand, but I think the "motion" doesn't really matter in this case because the wave has no mass. The higher energy electrons for example are just "waving" at a higher frequency so to speak.

[edit on 30-1-2005 by spike]

I've thought about that, since that is the case with photons that interact with electrons, but it was my understanding that photons do not have mass whereas electrons do. Is this mass selective, or is it just so minimal that it doesn't really count?

Originally posted by templersstorms1312
The subatomic forces are constantly moving the subatomic particles around each other. Isn't this an example of perpetual motion? Or do they stop eventually. Also, Do they require any energy to move? If not, wouldn't this be over 100% efficiency? Would it be possible to harness the energy of the electron cloud for our own use?

Particles will in fact continue to move forever if no force acts upon them. The reason "large" machines with perpetual motion is impossible is due to friction. However, subatomic particles rarely actally contact each other. The forces that act upon electrons for example are pretty much exlusively the weak (electric) force attracting it to the nucleus, and any energy imparted by photons. There is no "drag" to bring it to a stop.

That said, in controlled expirements where free subatomic particles are subjected to either actual physical interactions or weak/strong atomic forces they will stop eventually.

YEs. A perpetual motion machine has problems when it comes to friction or actually doing any WORK. Its efficiency would have to be somthing of 110%+ to be of any use, but we all know that its impossible to create energy .

A good example of one though, would be the earth orbit of the sun. The earth falls towards the sun, but misses it because of its great sideways speed, and it keeps doing it over and over again, but this is only possible because there is nothing in space to resist it.

Originally posted by quiksilver

A good example of one though, would be the earth orbit of the sun. The earth falls towards the sun, but misses it because of its great sideways speed, and it keeps doing it over and over again, but this is only possible because there is nothing in space to resist it.

Just to clarify, it's not that there is nothing to resist the movement of the earth. But there is very little (space dust, meteors, etc.) - and some things that will help it continue in it's orbit (force of the light of the sun, gravitational effects of other body's, meteor's, etc.). The overall change to the orbital parameters is extremely small.

So what everyone's kindof saying is that yes it is technically a perpetual motion, but no it doesn't really count because it doesn't interact with anything?

Originally posted by templersstorms1312
So what everyone's kindof saying is that yes it is technically a perpetual motion, but no it doesn't really count because it doesn't interact with anything?

Exactly.

electrons can behave like waves and are sometimes exempt from "standard" newtonian physics

thanks for clearing that up for me.

I do agree with this,....but it actually brings up another question. Absolute Zero. I've always understood that when matter reaches this temperature, mollecular motion ceases. I don't know how this works in....any ideas? I am supposing that the explination would involve the law of conservation of energy. I don't know exactly how. I don't believe that we have created absolute zero temperatures even in a laboratory setting. But have we observed it elsewhere? Astronomicaly? Any thoughts?

no, we haven't observed it or created it yet, but some scientists got pretty close. If the temperature is between 1 degree above absolute zero and absolute zero was the distance from newyork to san fransisco they got within a foot of san fransisco. The closer you get to absolute zero, more and more atoms will clump together and take on the properties of a single atom.

Originally posted by templersstorms1312
no, we haven't observed it or created it yet, but some scientists got pretty close. If the temperature is between 1 degree above absolute zero and absolute zero was the distance from newyork to san fransisco they got within a foot of san fransisco. The closer you get to absolute zero, more and more atoms will clump together and take on the properties of a single atom.

Yup, I believe that is called the Bose-Einstien condensate, or the Higgs-Boson not sure.

Originally posted by sardion2000

Yup, I believe that is called the Bose-Einstien condensate, or the Higgs-Boson not sure.

Your thinking of Bose-Einstein condensation. I used to work for a scientist who was doing his postdoc work in the group at the Univ. of Colorado where the first BE condensate was made. He was doing work on the lasers and some other expirements so he didn't get to share the nobel prize. Still pretty cool.

You can find some info here: www.colorado.edu...

Basically, what happens is that many atoms of the same energy and type occupy the same space at the same time.

Thanks! My questions are answered satisfactraly. I've never gotten quite so good an explination before!
Cheers!

Newton's Laws and the laws of thermodynamics forbid it. Mentioning subatomic particles interacting is similar to the earth circiling the sun perpetually, but if one tries to draw energy out of the system, the system will get wound down and lose energy. No energy can be drawn out.

As an interesting side-note with regard to the earth orbiting around the sun, I'm reminded of an experiment that NASA conducted: (I can't remember the mission # but I think it can be found on google): What they did was un-spool a large length, I think about a mile or so, of wire behind the shuttle while in orbit. Now consider that the shuttle, even in low earth orbit, can remain there for very long periods. With the conductive teather pulling along behind the shuttle, through the Earth's magnetic field (!!!) produced a very large charge. If I remember correctly, the experiment ended because the aparatus was not designed to hold so large a charge, and failed. Maybe this could be used to collect, and beam through microwaves, electricity generated from the rotating magnetic field of the earth!?!? What do you think?

[edit on 30-1-2005 by spike]

[edit on 30-1-2005 by spike]

Originally posted by spike
[..] Maybe this could be used to beam through microwaves, electricity generated from the rotating magnetic field of the earth!?!? What do you think?

I guess this could work, proably horribly inefficient though. One possible use though would be to make a sattelite, better yet two sattelites, connected via a long cable (lets say a few miles) and use the current induced (maximum would be a polar LEO) to power the sattelites. My guess is this would also be far more complex and expensive than simple solar panels or nuclear power systems. And god forbid the cable breaks....

Originally posted by spike
As an interesting side-note with regard to the earth orbiting around the sun, I'm reminded of an experiment that NASA conducted: (I can't remember the mission # but I think it can be found on google): What they did was un-spool a large length, I think about a mile or so, of wire behind the shuttle while in orbit. Now consider that the shuttle, even in low earth orbit, can remain there for very long periods. With the conductive teather pulling along behind the shuttle, through the Earth's magnetic field (!!!) produced a very large charge. If I remember correctly, the experiment ended because the aparatus was not designed to hold so large a charge, and failed. Maybe this could be used to collect, and beam through microwaves, electricity generated from the rotating magnetic field of the earth!?!? What do you think?

[edit on 30-1-2005 by spike]

[edit on 30-1-2005 by spike]

Ok, the law of conservation of energy holds for all systems. Im sure you have heard of gravity assists the voyager probes did on their way to the planets. When the probes used the planets gravity to speed up considerably, the planets themselves decreased in speed, very slightly due to their large mass. My professor solved this problem for us in class in analytical mechanics.