NEWS: UK Hindus fight to reclaim swastika from Nazis

You got it rancid, read your quote below. We have had instances in the past where people have tried to have swastikas, they have been removed. They have also claimed that it was the symbol of peace. That doesn't wash either, people are still offended by the symbolism they see in it, not the feeble excuse offered for it.

Now instead of standing and shouting out your rights, how about listening to your duties. The duty to respect others, the duty not to deliberatly cause cause offence or upset others.

This is a typical squeal of the selfish generation demanding rights whilst not understanding the pain they inflict on others. Go and talk to your grandfather and see how much your argument washes with people who fought, died, suffered, were murdered, and exterminated under that symbol. And you demand that you can display it as a symbol of peace? pathetic.

As far as I know there hasn't been any change to the board rules on the matter. if you don't like it take a hike.

Originally posted by rancid1
Now, you could take the easy way out of this argument and just simply state that this is a private forum and it doesn't follow the rules of edict but, I would hope you would not and give some sound input as to why individuals of this community cannot start to educate the rest of the community.

[edit on 26-1-2005 by Netchicken]

Let's ban everything just to make sure no one is offended by anything.

Give it a break, it's just a sticker.

Originally posted by rancid1
Wasn't America established by embracing different cultures? It is the land of the free and opportunity. Also, if an individual wanted to put any symbol in his/her avatar would it not be considered practicing the first bill of rights under the American constitution?

Certain symobls and thier like are universaly abhored. Let me ask you this? Could you wear one in a public school? Or better yet your place of employment and simply explain it away as "your all just ignorant". No, you could not. An employeer or the school could simply boot you out or terminate you on the spot.

It does not matter how well meaning or if you intend to educate. If you feel that your first ammendment rights to free speech have been violated, I invite you to place the symbol proudly on your car, or wear one prominently displayed on your person. But as you noted the first ammendment does not apply here on ATS, nor does your right to display images that are offensive. The symbol you are attempting to strawman into a 1st ammendment issue is universaly offensive.

Originally posted by Justanotherperson
Let's ban everything just to make sure no one is offended by anything.
Give it a break, it's just a sticker.

Give what a break. This is far from a PC issue. Infact if you had read the previous thread, it would be fairly clear.

This is why the world is gong to hell in a handbasket. people are all to wlling to give up thier freedoms, not as is often quoted, for security, but in order to avoid being offended.

Actually Fred put this most siscinctly.

All those who want to show a nazi avatar here, stick it on your car, on your shirt and see how you cope with it in the "real world". Then come back and tell us how it feels when you don't care that you offend others. Once you get out of hospital, that is.

Thats the whole point netchicken its not a Nazi avatar.
The fact that people are offended by it because they are too stupid to know what it means and how it was misused is irrelevant.
The fact that it offends people is irrelevant.
And even if it is used in the context of the nazi's in support of nazi ideals so what
People have the right to be stupid, ignorant, and hateful, you can not change that through legislation you can only hope to educate them to choose not too hate.
Hell persoannly I find PC thought police ideas like this to be as offensive as the nazi's themselves. Are we going to ban your ideas?
The simple fact is if something someone says, writes, etc offends you, you have the choice of not looking at it exercise your rights rather than tramapling on someone else's

from netchicken..... As far as I know there hasn't been any change to the board rules on the matter. if you don't like it take a hike.

First, I hope that we all are all calmly discussing this issue and not getting blinded by anger. Right Netchicken? also, I'm thinking you're wrong about your guess as to my age group.

I think you're missing my point here. I am simply calling for education. It's a shame that one man turned something that was once considered good luck into a sign of evil. It's also a shame that the average person is very ignorant of the fact that the swastika is a sign for goodness. Fortunately, I am educated in knowing of the history of the swastika and if I saw it on someone’s avatar I would know in what context it would refer to.

You are right my duty is to respect others and their rights as well, hence the reason I support what Nygdan was saying.

FredT you are absolutely correct there's no way a white male could get away with displaying a swastika in a work, school environment. I bet you someone from Indian decent could though. Sure the person would get some really strange looks at first but after the word got around of its true meaning....

Honestly, Mods what would happen if a person were to display a pentagram or upside down cross as their avatar?

Originally posted by Netchicken
Nygden, I can see your problem, you are a product of both cultures. As a result you see the symbol in its schizophrenic wholeness.

Not to mislead but I've got nothing to do with indian culture or anything like that.

you will be given the benefit of the doubt and you can explain the original reason.

This made me think 'no way in hell would i walk around with a swatstika on, that'd just be crazy'

and goose step past them. Then while they are saluting back run like hell

Better to smash their shaved heads

rancid1
would it not be considered practicing the first bill of rights under the American constitution

This website isn't the united states of america however. Constitutional law doesn't apply.

Honestly, Mods what would happen if a person were to display a pentagram or upside down cross as their avatar?

This is something of a more difficult case, there are certainly lots of people who would be highly offended by it. But nothing quite evokes a reaction like a big swatstika. In a sense the symbol is a victim of its own success, its own effectiveness at evoking strong reactions, whether they are good reaction, bad reactions, or mystical reactions.

I have to wonder tho, lets say a person has a big swatstika soley as their avatar or a regular avatar with a little swatstika added on to it, sort of like the eye patches and waves. This, I can see falling into the category of ban worthy (at least on the board). But If someone has, say, an avatar that is a statue of the buddha, one with a swatstika on it, would that be banned? I mean, if its contextualized properly and plainly, I'd think that a person who went thru those nazi horrors might not even be offended by it.

To Hindus the word is "Swastik" and it is a sign of prosperity, the Nazi's added the "a" made it "Swastika" and it becomes evil. But not only did they corrupt the name and meaning they also change the sign slightly, so do not get the two confused.

In my hindu practice, or maybe even modern hindu practice, our swastik is not on an angle like the nazi one. I highly suggest that those offended by the symbol read up on the history of it.
en.wikipedia.org...

Yes he is right! In the Hindu/Buddhist Context it kind of looks like an incomplete Grid or Square. What the Nazi's did was to Tilt it on its side - so that it looks like it is Rotating in one Certain Direction (Clockwise or Counter Clockwise - I can't remember). In actuality it should be Neutral - like a Plus Sign (or some would say a Cross) with Arms!

If it is a whole People’s Culture (Unrelated to that of Nazi Germany) that this symbol belongs to –They should not have to be punished for the Evil/Diabolical Actions of the Nazi's! Again put it in Context 50 Years ago vs. 5000 Years ago!

[edit on 26-1-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

I bet that if enough hindus in the Uk actually started walking around with swastika t-shirts and armbands and hats that it would result in enough of a public discussion on the thing to turn the tide against its 'nazi only' usage.

I doubt very man hindus are going to do that tho, but I guess the ball is in their court.

Truely Nygdan, from my reading of race relations in the UK. If some Hindu's trie to do that in the UK, they would set themselves up as targets for abuse and violence from the National Front or their political front end the BNP. If I was an indian in the UK, its probably one of the LAST things I would do, apart from wear a Tee shirt that said "Go home you anglo-saxon facists"
[
quote]Originally posted by Nygdan
I bet that if enough hindus in the Uk actually started walking around with swastika t-shirts and armbands and hats that it would result in enough of a public discussion on the thing to turn the tide against its 'nazi only' usage.

I doubt very man hindus are going to do that tho, but I guess the ball is in their court.

Not sure about Hindus, but from the times I visited Buddhist temples in Korea the symbol is actually backwards. Now this may be similar, but it did not offend me, in fact at first I laughed. I first thought it was a swastika and imagined bald Korean men coming out of the temple in combat boots. However, I was educated and told it has been a religious symbol in use way before Hitler.

Originally posted by Netchicken
Truely Nygdan, from my reading of race relations in the UK. If some Hindu's trie to do that in the UK, they would set themselves up as targets for abuse and violence from the National Front

Now that would be interesting, a nationalist party rioting against swastika wearers. Wouldn't be to good for your health,but it would certainly go a long way to seperating the swastika from the nationalists. Especially if it was pacifistic budhhists wearing them being beaten in the streets.

I sure as heck wouldn't be that intersted in 'reclaiming the swastika' tho! I suppose if no one else is, then thats sort of the final word on it.

apart from wear a Tee shirt that said "Go home you anglo-saxon facists"

Maybe those t-shirts can be saved for the welsh to wear then.

Hehehe

As an intersting aside, because the swastika is banned now, the nazi extremists (tautology isn't it) now have other symbols that represent the swastika, (symbols that represent symbols?)
www.adl.org...

its very interesting....

Just a suggestion, but if anyone really feels the need to use a swastik in their avatar, doesn't one Indian version contain a dot in each quadrant?

A distinct form of swatik used in a clear context (depicted with some other religious symbol or text for example) might not create quite the stir that just a swastika would. Any promise for this idea?

I was actually saying something like that vagabond. I think the one you are thinking of is a little to blatant tho. However, a person could use, for example, a buddha statue with the swatstik on it, I've seen a number of those, and it'd be difficult for a person to really be offended. Easy to be really confused, but, if anything thats what everyone wants right, confusion, which leads to them asking 'whats up wit dat' (preferably in proper english), and then explaining the context. Any non 'in your face' usage of it might be workable.

But, agian, I'd like to see if anyone thats offended at the banning of it would actually wear it in the real world.

Oh wow, that symbol site NC posted explains the symbols too. I've seen a bunch of them before, but not explanations for all of em.

[edit on 27-1-2005 by Nygdan]

I see your point. I'm certainly not arguing that symbols such as the swastika aren't controversial/inflamatory. People know what will and wont cause a stir, and if there isn't parity then that might be wrong but that's still how it is.
If you know something will cause problems, don't sport it unless you want problems- even if technically you feel you have a right to it.
That's why you don't see me running around Southern California with an Irish flag on my shirt that says "white pride", even though the Mexicans are allowed to do the equivalent.

Here is something that I think nicely illustrates the point of hindus and budhists.

www.adl.org...

This is a mockery of jesus on the cross, used as a hate symbol, 'perverted' torwards the skinhead ideology and racist neo-nazism.

If this was the most common usage of the cross, wouldn't even moderate christians

1. Be upset and bothered by the usage alone
   
2. Be even more upset that their cross was banned or talked of being banned
   
3. Try to do something about it?