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Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I don't believe that dead babies, for example, are doomed to hell because of the original sin.
Dang, two in one day! I agree with this statement as well.
Originally posted by mscbkc070904
The Roman Catholic church denounced purgatory. Why? Why after so long thru hundreds of years they now denounce it? If there is no prugatory where does troubled souls go? Are they judged and sent upon what life they lived?
How is it proven there are souls lost? If they are why isnt this spoken in all books of religion and faith?
Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
the RCC taught unbaptized babies went to Limbo.
SOME of the biblical quotes that have been interpreted to point
to Purgatory -
Psalm 66:12 - Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through
fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.
Origen and St. Ambrose specifically mention these as purgatorial
Ecclesiastes 12:14 - For God will bring every deed into judgment, with
every secret thing, whether good or evil.
Isiah 4:4 - When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the
daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its
midst by a spirit of judgement and by a spirit of burning. (see also
Isaiah 6:5-7 - And I said: Woe is Me! for I am lost; for I am a man of
unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips, for
my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts. Then Flew one of
the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken
with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: 'Behold,
this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.'
Micah 7:8-9 - Rejoice not over me, O mine enemy; when I fall, I shall rise;
when I sit in darkness, the Lord will be a light to me. I will bear the
indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he
pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me
forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance (see also Lev 26:41, 43
Job 40:4-5 Lam 3:39)
Malachi 3:2-4 - But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can
stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's
soap; he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the
sons of Levi, and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right
offerings to the Lord. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be
pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.
2 Maccabees 12:39-42, 44-45 - Judas and his men went to take up bodies
of the fallen .. then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found
sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to
wear .. so they all ... turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which
had been committed might be wholly blotted out ... for if he were not
expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been
superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the
splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it
was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the
dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.
If the Jews were wrong to pray for the dead, Christ would have
corrected this belief. He did not. See Matt 5:22, 25-26, 12:32;
Luke 12:58-59, 16:9, 19-31
Matthew 5:22 - But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his
brother shall be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother shall be
liable to the council, and whoever says 'you fool! shall be liable to
the Hell of fire.'
Matthew 5:25-26 - Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you
are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge,
and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you
you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.'
(see also Luke 12:58-59)
Matthew 12:32 - And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be
forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit wil not be forgiven,
either in this age or in the age to come. (there is a time after this that
you will be forgiven ... heaven and hell have no forgiveness, so there
must be another place that DOES have forgiveness after this one)
Zechariah 9:11 - As for you also, because of the blood of my covenant
with you, I will set your captives free from the waterless pit.
Here is a goodie discussing the degrees of expiation of sin -
Luke 12:47-48. So ... where exactly will these sins be expiated?
In Hell? Nope. That's eternal punishment. In Heaven? Nope.
That's eternal reward. Must be someplace else.
Here's a little bit of interesting thought - If God refuses to receive
prayer, praise, and worship from the unrepentant sinner (Ps 66:18;
Prov 1:28-30; Isa 1:15, 59:2; Jer6:20, Amos 5:21-24; Mic 3:4; Mal 1:10;
John 9:31; Heb 10:38) why would he permit the damned to undertake this
'Under the Earth' could refer even the damned having to
acknowledge Jesus as Son of God, OR it could refer to purgatory.
Most likely it is purgatory because people in Hell wouldn't be singing
God's praises saying 'To Him who sits upon the throne and to the
Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever.'
Phil 2:10-11 - at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, in Heaven
and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that
Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Rev 5:3, 13 - And on one in Heaven or on earth or under the earth was
able to open the scroll or to look into it .. And I heard every creature in
Heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein
saying, 'To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and
honor and glory and might forever and ever.'
Then we have St. Paul praying for the dead. Onesiphorus appears to
be dead at the time of this letter to Timothy. (cross ref 2 Tim 4:19 and
2 Tim 1:18)
2 Tim 1:16-18 - May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus,
for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, but he
arrived in Rome, he searched for me eagerly and found me - may the
Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day - and you well
know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.