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Purgatory? Is there such a thing?

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posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 12:23 AM
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The Roman Catholic church denounced purgatory. Why? Why after so long thru hundreds of years they now denounce it? If there is no prugatory where does troubled souls go? Are they judged and sent upon what life they lived?

How is it proven there are souls lost? If they are why isnt this spoken in all books of religion and faith?




posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 12:25 AM
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As far as I know there is nothing in the Bible that supports the idea of a purgatory. It was mainly used by the Catholic Church to extort money from people by saying their loved ones were in purgatory but it they donated to the church, they'd go the heaven.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 12:28 AM
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Purgatory is one of the most laughable conecpts of the catholic church, the notion the u exist in limbo untill u have payed your debt in sins befor u can go into heaven.....
Well i guess u firstly have to believe in heaven and hell whihc is laughable to me, then to add limbo in to the equation....shows the courrption of the cathoclic church perfectly.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 01:47 AM
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When did they denounce purgatory? I dont remember hearing that.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 10:09 AM
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Purgatory is just a way to circumvent the teachings in the bible. Without it, not a soul on earth would get into heaven. Born again christians have this backward idea that the bible says they can get to heaven simply by "accepting Jesus". In reality, it does kinda say that in the bible, but contradictory to that, it says otherwise. Just one of the many contradictions. So some people choose to believe its simple to get into heaven like born agains. And some people believe its difficult and use purgatory. Either is meaningless, because first, you have to establish the existence of your god, heaven and hell. If you can't establish those, why bother worrying about purgatory?

Oh, during the crusades, priests were paid for confessions and prayers for those in purgatory. It wasa original conceived to extort money out of the uneducated followers.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 10:13 AM
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I believe the Bible makes it quite clear that Christians are saved by faith in Jesus as their savior alone. However, it also says that those who haven't received the laws of YHVH or the message of Jesus will be judged accordingly. I don't believe that dead babies, for example, are doomed to hell because of the original sin.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 10:28 AM
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Originally posted by mscbkc070904
The Roman Catholic church denounced purgatory.

What? When?

If there is no prugatory where does troubled souls go?

Hell, apparently.

How is it proven there are souls lost?

Its not proven, its accepted on faith.

Purgatory, I have noticed, is similiar, at least as far as I understand it, to the Islamic version of hell. Everyone goes to islamic hell, except the super pure, for varying time spans, for punishment for whatever wrongdoings they had, until the are purged and released into paradise.

[edit on 24-1-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by wang
Purgatory is one of the most laughable conecpts of the catholic church, the notion the u exist in limbo

Adults do not go to limbo. Limbo is for unbaptised children. I suppose its also where unbaptised patriarchs, like abraham, might go.

Purgatory makes some deal of sense. A person being sent to hell for sin, punishing vile disgusting murder-rapists along with people who said a swear word doesn't make sense. Purgatory was put forward to suggest that people who have faith in christ but 'died in their sins' (ie didn't receive last rites) weren't sent to eternal, permanent, damnation.

And you don't get out of purgatory by payment. You get out by having people pray for your release. You can have monks in their monasteries perform these prayers, and in order to do so you make a donation to them. Realistically, effectively, its people paying for you to get out of purgatory, but it doesn't require indulgences and the like.


shows the courrption of the cathoclic church perfectly.

It was a philosophical attempt to deal with the implications of their theology. Like most things thought up by people, it became corrupted.


I believe the Bible makes it quite clear that Christians are saved by faith in Jesus as their savior alone.

No, they are not saved by faith alone. It requires works. A rich man has more difficulty getting into heaven than a camel has getting thru the eye of a needle. This has nothign to do with faith. Faith is required i beleive, but not sufficient.

I don't believe that dead babies, for example, are doomed to hell because of the original sin.

Hence the creation of limbo. These people beleived in heaven and hell, they realized that sending babies to hell is nonesense, but know sin isn't tolerated in heaven, hence limbo and purgatory.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 12:46 PM
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ah the only faith vs works argument

THere is no purgatory outside Catohlic teachings. Purgatory is a loophole in doturine that allows for fear and salvation of those that are not saved. There is heaven, there is hell, and there is the world we live in. There is no areas of grey. Beside using poorly used verses taken out of context there is no evidance of purgatory. in scripture


Romans 3:22-24 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.


Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.


Mark 5:34 He [Jesus] said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.”


Romans 4:4-5 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.


In a sense purgatory is turning on of Jesus Christs last words "It is accopliished/finished/done" into doubt. THere is no way to 'pay off' sins after death according to the bible. Either you repent and Belive in what Jesus has done for you, or you go to the place where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth"



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 12:59 PM
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Very simple the concept of hell, heaven and between was all part of the early church hoax to keep people afraid.

I love Dante concept of hell and purgatory he does an excellent mockery of it.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 01:34 PM
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The Roman Catholic idea of purgatory came from the Old Testament place known as "Sheol", "The Grave", etc. and what is referred to in the New Testament as "Hades" and in the Greek "Tartarus." No, this is not a reference to Hell, the lake of fire.

In the Old Testament, EVERYONE who died went to this place called Sheol, which I suppose was rather hellish, but was not what we would today called Hell, which is the eternal punishment of sinners by will. Folks went to Sheol because of inbred sin, which they could do nothing about, despite the fact that they could atone for sins of other nature.
When Jesus Christ died, he too went to Sheol--with one exception. He had no inbred sin, nor had he sinned in his life, so Sheol had no power over him. He gathered the righteous and took them to Heaven.

A different subject is whether the righteous go to heaven when they die. The Bible never actually says that they do. There is a reference to "Paradise" and "Abraham's Bosom" but never to people actually going to heaven, which makes sense, for Christ is still preparing heaven.

I have heard as many different beliefs about this as there are people who come up with the beliefs. Some belief that upon death one is truly dead, feeling and seeing nothing, but the soul is asleep until the final Judgement, when the dead shall leap out of their graves and then enter either Heaven or Hell.

Yet most believe that the soul goes to either purgatory or heaven, and I believe this is a result of the comforting thought of dead loved ones being with God...you know, the old "Well, he's in a better place" and all that.

Ah I think I got a little off subject there but that's okay.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by Croat56
When did they denounce purgatory? I dont remember hearing that.


Is anyone gonna answer my question?



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by southern_cross3
When Jesus Christ died, he too went to Sheol--with one exception. He had no inbred sin, nor had he sinned in his life, so Sheol had no power over him. He gathered the righteous and took them to Heaven.

Indeed, the early christian community, iwth its beleif in a bodily ressurection followed by a kingdom of christ and then the dissolution of the world, doesn't seem to be saying that peole die and go to heaven,but rather rest 'in the grave' until then. Even hell doesn't seem to figure in, since they, in the second comming, get judged and verififed in the 'book of life' and, if found wanting, are cast into the 'lake of fire', which sounds like its saying the dead don't immeadiately get punished either. Also, the lake of fire, sounds less like hell, and more like eradication, oblivion, complete destruction, not painful torturing or being ruled by the devil.


croat
Is anyone gonna answer my question?

I suspect that the church in fact has not decided that purgatory doesn't exist.

[edit on 24-1-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 03:11 PM
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The Church has not denounced the existence of purgatory. It is still as real as ever. Whoever claims this is sadly mistaken. A good reference for the truth is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. An online searchable version can be found at www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm. References to purgatory can be found in paragraphs 1031, 1475, 1498, 1472.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 03:44 PM
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The idea of purgatory is rediculous. The idea that men have the power to "PRAY" people into heaven is not only nonBIBLICAL, but blasphemous. If I have the power to pray someone to heaven then Jesus was not who he said he was.

Jesus is the only way to heaven.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 03:46 PM
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I'm currently in Purgatory. Fortunately I hope to be released in a few weeks

(Thats what you get when you have to live with your Mother-in-law)



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by southern_cross3
In the Old Testament, EVERYONE who died went to this place called Sheol, which I suppose was rather hellish, but was not what we would today called Hell, which is the eternal punishment of sinners by will. Folks went to Sheol because of inbred sin, which they could do nothing about, despite the fact that they could atone for sins of other nature.


You need to work on how you define Sheol, and it's uses. In the old King James Version, the English word “hell” actually was used to translate two different words and two very different concepts. One term was the word gehenna, (e.g., Matt 5:22). This was adapted from the name of a valley to the south of the Temple in Jerusalem where the city garbage was burned, the “Valley of Hinnom.” ge hinnom (“valley of Hinnom” in Hebrew) became a symbol for the judgment of God. The fires also came to symbolize that punishment and destruction, and became the more common way to conceptualize “hell” in later Christian tradition.

The other is the Greek term Hades (e.g., Matt 11:23). This term comes from Greek mythology in which it was the abode of the dead. It was used to translate into Greek the Hebrew concept of Sheol. While in the Old Testament this term was not mythological, it was a metaphorical way to talk about what happened to people when they died. Sheol was simply the place where dead people go. It was almost synonymous with death and especially “grave,” and indeed is used that way in several Old Testament passages, e.g., Psa 49:14

In other words, Sheol or Hades was a poetic way to say, “they died and were buried.”

The biggest problem iand where a lot get the idea for purgatory is based on interpitations of 1 Peter 4:6

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


When Jesus died and spent his 3 days in "the grave" he was probly able to free those belivers that died between the flood and the present day and sent them to heaven. But now with Babtzisum, and the holy spirit there is no need for any beliver to go to Sheol. But they can directly go to heaven (do not pass go, do not collect $200
)

Since we are human we can probly not fully grasp how heaven works, but it is often taught that every beliver will be arriving at heaven at the same time. Even tho thier physical deaths might be centuries apart.

maybe the catholic Chruch doesn't want people to think the holy spirit has as much power over our spirit as it actaully does



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 05:19 PM
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Gehenna was the huge garbage pit where they placed the bodies of those that were refused a proper burial. They kept fires burning in the refuse dump to consume the garbage and the lost "souls".



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 06:03 PM
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I saw bumper sticker on a car yesterday that I thought I would share with you all. It said, "Stop Using Jesus As An Excuse To Be A Narrow Minded %$^^%$^^" .

How fitting I find that statement. I swear to you, that those who use terms like "saved", and "have you accepted the lord" are completely oiblivious by choice to comon sense. There is room for a god in this world of science. But the narrow minded ignorants who use those terms refuse to even look at it. They criticise people for looking at the bible to criticise it, and then go ahead and look at science for the same reason...making up stupid and idiotic ideas about how science is wrong as they go. Someone will say...The bible says"any bible quote". It will contradict another bible quote...and they will ex0plain it away by saying we can't understand. We being the unsaved. Meanwhile, it is them who accept a book written in english that cannot be accurately traNSLATED EVEN TODAY...AND believe it word for word UNTIL A CONTRADICTION OR IDIOTIC IDEA PRESENTS ITSELF. Then they pull the you cant understand card.

Here is what I can understand. 5+5 is 10. There is nothing anyone can do about it, even a God. I look at math and numbers, to gather my conclusions. They look at a book, that isnt accurately translated by their own admission...read it word for word until it contradicts logic and their own thinking. Then they FABRICATE excuses for how it can be possible....fabricate things that were not even in the bible....which revelatioin tells us is condemning. They fabricate things to extort money. Take purgatory and confession. That isnt the way it is today you say? Maybe not in the catholic church, but look at all those born again evangelicals on tv. Stealing the feeble minded people's money. Con artists..... Everyone who has a brain can see it. Tell me, who in here supports Jerry Falwell, or Pat Robertson? What a shame it is that we even have to dicuss something like purgatory. Something that was made up to extort money from people, based on something else made up to extort money from people, based on something made up because the people of the time were too unadvanced to even understand a simple chemical compound or function. UGH!!!!!



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 07:56 PM
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Well, you're certainly going to hell. Though hypocrites in the Christian religion are no reason for you to denounce it.



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