NYPD can’t count cash they’ve seized because it would crash computers

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: jacobe001

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Or it could be "since our systems are real time systems, trying to generate a detailed report for 50k + employees / officers would cause the system to implode, taking it offline and not allowing any information in this area to be entered into the system".

The information is in the system.

It does not matter if it is real time
They can copy the relational database and run the queries on a separate system so they will not be effecting the live one.

Being IT, I am sure they make backups of the database as well, so the data is already there for offline queries on a separate system.

This is all BS to evade the theft of other peoples money

I'll bet you dollars to donuts they would have no problem generating a report of all the money owed to them via fines, tickets etc

Well since your so familiar with how law enforcement programs work you should contact the NYPD and tell them what they are doing wrong and fix it for them.

Do you know anything about Relational Databases?
I do as do many others and they can pull this BS with the ignorant but not with people involved in the field.

To confirm, you can go to programming forums where this story came out and the people there are also calling BS on this story.

SAP which is what they are using is used for Large Data Storage, the same system many Banks and Corporations use for inventory and is not some casio calculator storage program

I am pretty sure the Data that Major Banks and Big Corporations utilize is much larger in scale than what the NYPD uses.
Perhaps they hiring low IQ IT also to manage their Informational Infrastructure.

Again, complete BS

I suppose it be pretty hard to create a query:

SELECT SUM(money_seized) FROM foobarred_people;

a reply to: jacobe001

As I said its a law enforcement system and not a standard database. Feel free to contact the NYPD and tell them what they are doing wrong and how to fix it.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: jacobe001

As I said its a law enforcement system and not a standard database. Feel free to contact the NYPD and tell them what they are doing wrong and how to fix it.

you have said this a few times. i know you pretty well (and like you quite a bit). So rather than keep ignoring this, i'd like to have you explain the difference, and why its there.

I know quite a bit about accounting rules, and a fair bit about databases in general. And I've done loads of implentations, as well as managing programmers who have had experience doing database jobs for various LEO in Colorado. Maybe you can provide some context behind what the differences are, and why they are there.

Because without that, it just looks like an excuse plucked out of thin air.

ETA: i've tried to research this a bit, and keep coming across stuff like this:

When property is seized, the burden of proof is on the person accused of a crime to prove the property was not involved with the crime.

Proving that property was not involved in a crime requires attorneys, which can be costly. The New York City Council’s Public Safety Committee is concerned that low-income people who can not afford legal representation could be targeted. The Council is considering a bill that would force the NYPD to provide data on seizures in order to monitor civil forfeiture actions for abuse.

and it pisses me off so much that I have had to stop reading it. The breadth and mass of tyranny wthin this story is more than I can tolerate thinking about.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: jacobe001

As I said its a law enforcement system and not a standard database. Feel free to contact the NYPD and tell them what they are doing wrong and how to fix it.

I'd be DELIGHTED to...what, is that some kind of a threat or something???? Should I be AFRAID????

What's their number?

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I will make it easy and provide a link discussing evidence management and issues involved.

First off asset seizure in the context of the op is actually a civil process and not criminal. Hence the reason a person has to prove the items in question are not involved in criminal activity. The rules of evidence, burden of proof, all the way down to invoking your 5th amendment can actually be used against you in civil procedures. Because its civil your right to have a lawyer appointed does not exist.


* - Electronic Evidence Management

At the bottom of the article are links to various RMS and some stand alone systems. Unlike normal databases, items in an law enforcement system are not only entered but also are assigned to a specific case / event number and from there can be cross linked to other cases / event numbers. It's location is also attached.

A chain of custody must be maintained in order for the items to be allowable in court proceedings without it being challenged / thrown out as compromised. That means each time an item is seized, entered into the system, the property officer who receives the items, any officer / detective accessing the items, items being sent to the prosecuting attorney / defense attorney etc.

The evidence systems are designed to track items to a case / chain of custody and not necessarily designed to give a break down of individual items across the entire system. Depending on agency, cases and the evidence from that case can be restricted to certain persons while locking out the rest.

Found property / recovered property with no case link can be entered in and, in general, allows for generic searches. For instance if a bicycle is found it can be entered into a portion of the system that allows officers to conduct generic searches of bicycles if someone comes in asking if one has been recovered.

Evidence on the other hand is restricted. So while the city wants a report done on the amount of currency seized the system most likely cannot generate that specific of a report. As you and others pointed out im sure something can be created to allow for the report to be generated but again we run into an issue of either reprogramming the system, adding a 3rd party program that can access the desired items and tabulate the results. You must ensure the report process doesn't create problems anywhere else in the system.

Whichever way you go you still must ensure that the system is secured and that only evidence officers / command staff has access so it does not compromise any departmental standards / policies, any evidentiary rules, any privacy laws or jeopardize any chain of custody.

I can keep going but, in general, you get the idea. Its not as simple as some people think it is. If the system in use cant produce the specific report required you will have to re-code / add new code / a new 3rd party program that can identify currency and the reason for the seizure. Trying to add code / 3rd party program can be problematic if its not done correctly and can result in major issues with active cases in the system. In the worst case scenario you have a failure where evidence tracking is lost, compromising multiple areas.

In this case, I believe the op article is stating the system in use for the NYPD is not designed to generate the type of report the city is wanting. As it points out prior to 2012 evidence logging / tracking was done on paper and was not digital. There are agencies whose systems allow for user defined report generation. The NYPD should look at one of those systems. Its been my experience though that the larger the department the more in house the RMS systems become. They want it tailored to their specific needs and in a lot of cases trying to add to it is not always possible.

This would be one of those areas where the KISS principle is key.

My argument is based on my exposure to different systems and being responsible for some of the admin reporting. I don't believe the NYPD is trying to hide the money they have seized as some in the thread are angling for. I truly believe the system the NYPD has just cant produce that specific of a report request.

Jeezus...this is incredible!!

ETA...is "incredible" even the right word? Should it be 'incredulous'....or 'incomprehensible' (or some such)?

I'm at a loss for words.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
I'd be DELIGHTED to...what, is that some kind of a threat or something???? Should I be AFRAID????

Uhm no threat and no reason to be afraid. Maybe tone down the drama some...

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
What's their number?

Property Clerk Division

11 Front Street
Brooklyn, N.Y. 11201
Phone: (718) 624-8789
Fax: (718) 624-8791

Inspector Thomas J. Scollan, Commanding Officer
Captain Timothy Hollywood, Executive Officer


Borough Telephone Number
Manhattan Property Office (646) 610-5906
Bronx Property Office (718) 590-2806
Brooklyn Property Office (718) 624-5364
Queens Property Office (718) 433-2678
Staten Island Property Office (718) 876-8413

NYPD Switchboard: 1-646-610-5000

Manhattan

1st Precinct (212) 334-0611 16 Ericsson Place
5th Precinct (212) 334-0711 19 Elizabeth Street
6th Precinct (212) 741-4811 233 West 10 Street
7th Precinct (212) 477-7311 19 1/2 Pitt Street
9th Precinct (212) 477-7811 321 East 5th Street
10th Precinct (212) 741-8211 230 West 20th Street
13th Precinct (212) 477-7411 230 East 21st Street
Midtown So. Pct. (212) 239-9811 357 West 35th Street
17th Precinct (212) 826-3211 167 East 51st Street
Midtown No. Pct. (212) 767-8400 306 West 54th Street
19th Precinct (212) 452-0600 153 East 67th Street
20th Precinct (212) 580-6411 120 West 82nd Street
Central Park Pct. (212) 570-4820 86th St & Transverse Road
23rd Precinct (212) 860-6411 162 East 102nd Street
24th Precinct (212) 678-1811 151 West 100th Street
25th Precinct (212) 860-6511 120 East 119th Street
26th Precinct (212) 678-1311 520 West 126th Street
28th Precinct (212) 678-1611 2271-89 8th Avenue
30th Precinct (212) 690-8811 451 West 151st Street
32nd Precinct (212) 690-6311 250 West 135th Street
33rd Precinct (212) 927-3200 2207 Amsterdam Avenue
34th Precinct (212) 927-9711 4295 Broadway



Bronx

40th Precinct (718) 402-2270 257 Alexander Avenue
41st Precinct (718) 542-4771 1035 Longwood Avenue
42nd Precinct (718) 402-3887 830 Washington Avenue
43rd Precinct (718) 542-0888 900 Fteley Avenue
44th Precinct (718) 590-5511 2 East 169th Street
45th Precinct (718) 822-5411 2877 Barkley Avenue
46th Precinct (718) 220-5211 2120 Ryer Avenue
47th Precinct (718) 920-1211 4111 Laconia Avenue
48th Precinct (718) 299-3900 450 Cross Bronx Expressway
49th Precinct (718) 918-2000 2121 Eastchester Road
50th Precinct (718) 543-5700 3450 Kingsbridge Avenue
52nd Precinct (718) 220-5811 3016 Webster Avenue



Brooklyn

60th Precinct (718) 946-3311 2951 West 8th Street
61st Precinct (718) 627-6611 2575 Coney Island Avenue
62nd Precinct (718) 236-2611 1925 Bath Avenue
63rd Precinct (718) 258-4411 1844 Brooklyn Avenue
66th Precinct (718) 851-5611 5822 16th Avenue
67th Precinct (718) 287-3211 2820 Snyder Avenue
68th Precinct (718) 439-4211 333 65th Street
69th Precinct (718) 257-6211 9720 Foster Avenue
70th Precinct (718) 851-5511 154 Lawrence Avenue
71st Precinct (718) 735-0511 421 Empire Boulevard
72nd Precinct (718) 965-6311 830 4th Avenue
73rd Precinct (718) 495-5411 1470 East New York Avenue
75th Precinct (718) 827-3511 1000 Sutter Avenue
76th Precinct (718) 834-3211 191 Union Street
77th Precinct (718) 735-0611 127 Utica Avenue
78th Precinct (718) 636-6411 65 6th Avenue
79th Precinct (718) 636-6611 263 Tompkins Avenue
81st Precinct (718) 574-0411 30 Ralph Avenue
83rd Precinct (718) 574-1605 480 Knickerbocker Avenue
84th Precinct (718) 875-6811 301 Gold Street
88th Precinct (718) 636-6511 298 Classon Avenue
90th Precinct (718) 963-5311 211 Union Avenue
94th Precinct (718) 383-3879 100 Meserole Avenue



Queens

100th Precinct (718) 318-4200 92-24 Rockaway Beach Boulevard
101st Precinct (718) 868-3400 16-12 Mott Avenue
102nd Precinct (718) 805-3200 87-34 118th Street
103rd Precinct (718) 657-8181 168-02 P.O. Edward Byrne Ave.
104th Precinct (718) 386-3004 64-2 Catalpa Avenue
105th Precinct (718) 776-9090 92-08 222nd Street
106th Precinct (718) 845-2211 103-53 101st Street
107th Precinct (718) 969-5100 71-01 Parsons Boulevard
108th Precinct (718) 784-5411 5-47 50th Avenue
109th Precinct (718) 321-2250 37-05 Union Street
110th Precinct (718) 476-9311 94-41 43rd Avenue
111th Precinct (718) 279-5200 42-06 215th Street
112th Precinct (718) 520-9311 68-40 Austin Street
113th Precinct (718) 712-7733 167-02 Baisley Boulevard
114th Precinct (718) 626-9311 34-16 Astoria Boulevard
115th Precinct (718) 533-2002 92-15 Northern Boulevard



Staten Island

120th Precinct (718) 876-8500 78 Richmond Terrace
121st Precinct (718) 697-8700 970 Richmond Avenue
122nd Precinct (718) 667-2211 2320 Hylan Boulevard
123rd Precinct (718) 948-9311 116 Main Street

a reply to: Xcathdra

Gee, thanks...for looking up every NYPD number on the Internet!!

I pretty much knew that was coming!

Okay...I'll call. Which number would you suggest I call first?

LOL!!!

ETA....

I was thinking I'd call this one first, what'dya think? It's not one of the numbers I saw you post!

(518)474-8390

Albany, NY 12224.
Fax518)474-3767.
Tel518)474-8390.
email: [email protected].

Looks like they're going to need a Quantum Computer.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
Okay...I'll call. Which number would you suggest I call first?

LOL!!!

i would start with the first number I provided. The NYPD Clerk's division.

ETA - Why would you call the Governor? He has no authority in terms of what we are discussing.

Or a better system...

a reply to: Xcathdra

Oh...I'm sure I'll get REAL far calling that number!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!

Ummmm....LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL....ROFLMAO!!!!!

You're too funny!!!

"Hello, Fox? Can you, ummmm, tell me where the chickens are??? Hmmmmm?????"

Surely you're kidding now, right????

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

So in other words you didnt understand what I posted so you resort to derailing the thread with nonsense comments.

If you have questions ask.

SPAM removed by admin