Chuck Yeager disavows fifth generation fighters.

originally posted by: darkstar57
a reply to: yuppa

now i dont know a thing about dogfighting but my guess is that coming to a stop with vtol is a loser...if the opponent notices stop maneuver, he turns and kills before the vtol guy can fire...a 9g turn is pretty quick and keeps speed up.

Well I should had been more specific. Im not talking about a dead stop actually. Im just talking about a high speed deceleration if you have a bogey on your six close enough to make him overshoot if you tap the brakes so to speak. Others above me have said it better though. The F-35 can out turn a f-16 with a well trained pilot. Shoot a F-22 can ou t turn a F-16 with its thrust vectoring. the VIPER gets its fangs broken once again.

originally posted by: darkstar57
a 9g turn is pretty quick and keeps speed up.

A 9G turn will bleed energy badly. There's a certain speed that you can turn at and keep energy up, but the more Gs you pull the more energy you lose and the longer it takes to recover.

originally posted by: Zaphod58

originally posted by: darkstar57
a 9g turn is pretty quick and keeps speed up.

A 9G turn will bleed energy badly. There's a certain speed that you can turn at and keep energy up, but the more Gs you pull the more energy you lose and the longer it takes to recover.

Me thinks he has seen Iron eagle too many times. lol!!

If I had all the sensor systems of the F35, i would prefer a dogfight from my personal 777 with a hot tub..bigger radars, FLIRs, electronic jammers etc than a f35, and of course a pile of Amraam, with 3000 mph and 20 g turns...and that data link back to my hot tub, where i can advise it of that dastardly f35 vtol maneuver . But on a real battlefield, there will be so much countermeasures..spoofing , infrared bogies, etc that a real dogfight might quickly descend to visual, and Chuck Yaegers world.......

a reply to: darkstar57

That's why sensors have evolved to where they are, and missiles have developed far beyond early heat seeking missiles that homed on the sun, or just fell off the rails. Missiles are much harder to jam, and newer missiles will home on the jammer trying to block them. The newest IR missiles combine an IR seeker with an optical seeker.

For energy recovery if you have enough altitude,just put your nose down and speed up..For the ones who know air combat is a complex ballet of maneuvers and anxiety in getting your weapons on your enemy the most efficient way possible.The deadliest attack is one where your opponent doesnt even know what hit him..

a reply to: Zaphod58 for every evolved sensor there is an evolved answer.. check out the Khibiny system, supposedly shut down AEGIS on the Donald Cook. here is a link on Russian technology. aerospace.boopidoo.com...&%20DOCS/Overscan%27s%20guide%20to%20Russian%20Military%20Avionics.htm
the only certainty we will get coming up now is the outcome of the continuation of the f22 vs su24 air confrontation over northern Syria. If the Russian tech takes down a flight of f22s, it will likely end the f35 boondoggle...if not, expect Lockheed Martin to encumber your retirement savings, "for your own good".

a reply to: Zaphod58

Speaking of sensors, what I'm REALLY wondering is why nobody has tried to mount a naval-grade anti-aircraft AESA sensor suite on a B-52-sized platform loaded with as many long-range anti-aircraft missiles as the buff carries ALCM's.

Basically an AWACS with a flying CIC, loaded with standard missiles.

This "AEGIS with wings" or "anti-aircraft bomber" would be an absolute abomination in the eyes of the fighter mafia, but if the S-400, SAMPSON/Sea Viper, and AEGIS systems are as frightening to fighter pilots as I think they are, then giving those systems the mobility of even a subsonic platform (speak nothing of a stealthy or supersonic one) could be enough to keep fighter pilots everywhere up in cold sweats at night.

a reply to: darkstar57

And that story is total BS. The system used is the equivalent of the self defense jammer of the F-16. Short ranged, and relatively low powered. It's also incapable of being mounted on the Su-24. As for Syria, you're thinking Su-34, which is quite different, and still not capable of "taking down a flight of F-22s".

a reply to: Zaphod58
actually i was thinking of the s400 system which has yet to be tested, as far as we know, against the f22/f35 stealth.

a reply to: darkstar57

Slight difference there. The S400 has been in Syria, and actively grabbing everything is possibly can, and has yet to have much luck against F-22s.

a reply to: Zaphod58
the question is, did the f22s pass within range of Khmeimim airbase,,, a 400 km radius about that point is bounded by Erbil on the east and Kayseri to the north... if the f22s were outside that or not within long enough to track, the s400 could not have been launched. I do not know but would guess they were not in range. so how do you know "actively grabbing" ? no confirmation until its fired and hits or misses.

a reply to: darkstar57

The S400 isn't there to shoot unless there's a very real threat to the Russian base. But that's not all that they do. They grab every emission they can, from every aircraft that comes in range of it, and they catalog it. Then they can build a database for if they ever DO go active. They can use those emissions they captured to defeat the EW of the targeted aircraft type.

Yes they have flown within range of the S400. They're operating as mini AWACS on most of their missions, including within the operating envelope of the S400.

I remember him absolutely refusing to acknowledge that the Mustang prop fighter (named by the British) wasn't any good until the British shoehorned a Rolls-Royce Merlin engine into it, and also fitted the Spitfire gunsite into the cockpit.

a reply to: Zaphod58
I think the combat radius of the s400 is 248 miles, and a radius drawn about the Hmenimen or K... in syria probably shows the f22s out of range..but then i do not know their origin. but the databasing of emissions probably occured, so the S400 battery now has a fresh target signature, so the next incident is going to be a lot more interesting. and, by the way, the airbase has the Pantsir short range air defence.

a reply to: pikestaffYeager being a certifiable a..h...does not make him wrong.

a reply to: darkstar57

They aren't taking off and staying away from the S400 areas. They have to go near them to look for targets. They're there to fly combat missions, not stay far away from any possible threats to them or other aircraft.

I'm well aware of what the base has for defenses, as well as what the F-22s are doing, where they're from, and even what units are there. They're there to perform a mission, which includes flying near the S400. And the S400 hasn't had a lot of luck getting emissions from them when they're in the area, or tracking them.

a reply to: darkstar57

It doesn't make him right either. Just because he was a great test pilot doesn't mean his opinion is gospel and he's always right.

originally posted by: darkstar57
a reply to: Zaphod58
I think the combat radius of the s400 is 248 miles, and a radius drawn about the Hmenimen or K... in syria probably shows the f22s out of range..but then i do not know their origin. but the databasing of emissions probably occured, so the S400 battery now has a fresh target signature, so the next incident is going to be a lot more interesting. and, by the way, the airbase has the Pantsir short range air defence.

Here. If the radar is capable of detecting 1sq-m class targets at ~400km, it'll be capable of detecting an F-35 class RCS (~0.0014sq-m) target at 50~55km. The rough rule of thumb is that for 10 fold reduction in RCS, range is approximately halved. In addition, the seekers on the missiles themselves will also have a drastically smaller homing basket so when the missiles open their eyes they may need to be say 2.5km from the target instead of say 20km to actually acquire. This is a big problem, especially when SAM-ARM duels sometimes ending with the aircraft dodging below the radar horizon and hence causing the SAM radar to be unable to accurately command guide the weapon way before the seeker goes active. The shot is hence blind in the last phase of the flight and a big homing basket is essential in improving the missile's probability of hitting the target. This is without taking into account an ECM environment that may be detrimental to the radar's function.

In other words Yes it will detect it BUT it will be well within kill range of the f-35 and f-22.

a reply to: yuppa

Yeah, but heh no not really... And by not really I mean not at all any day ever.

First off the F35 uses the wrong type of mechanisms for that sort of maneuver. It literally couldn't do it.

Now if you were talking about harrier or a successor to harrier using a similar VTOL method even if slightly different way of going about it could do what they called viffing...

This involved rotating the thrust nozzles in flight to allow some pretty violent and quick maneuvering if it really had to.

Also yuppa ... As cool as I'm going to hit the brakes and he'll fly right by was as a movie line in top gun, it just wouldn't work out that way in real air combat all that often.