Jealousy and wrath are not emotions

The setting of what the Old Testament calls the “jealousy” and “wrath” of God is the relationship between God and his people.
It’s based on the fact that he brought them into existence and keeps them in existence.

It follows, from this, that he has a claim on them, in addition to the more fundamental claim which follows from his role as the Creator of life.
This claim is described as “jealousy”.
They are instructed not to make or worship graven images, or any other kinds of gods, “for I the Lord your God am a jealous God” (Exodus ch20 v5).
When he shows Ezekiel an image brazenly planted in the courtyard of his own house, at the northern gateway, he calls it “the image of jealousy, which provokes to jealousy” (Ezekiel ch8 v3).
This language is associated with the kind of loyalty expected in a marriage relationship, and the prophets frequently express it in those terms.

At the same time, the purpose of the relationship is that he wants to teach them his ways, which offers another metaphor.
If we think of the God of Israel as the teacher of his people, then what he is demanding is the same kind of sole attention that a good teacher demands from a class.
Then the danger of the other gods is that they present a serious distraction which undermines what he is attempting to teach.

Another kind of jealousy, a protective jealousy, comes into play when the existence of his people comes under threat.
Thus when his chastisement had made them “ a by-word among the nations… The Lord became jealous for his land and had pity on his people” (Joel ch2 v18).
After the Fall of Jerusalem, he speaks of “my hot jealousy against the rest of the nations… who gave my land to themselves as a possession” (Ezekiel ch36 v5).
Since the long-term intention is to extend the teaching role to the world at large, his reputation as a protector of his people is also at stake; “I will restore the fortunes of Jacob… and I will be jealous for my holy name” (Ezekiel ch39 v25).
Even when his people have returned to the land, they are still suffering at the hands of the rest of the nations which “remain at ease”.
Therefore the Lord declares “I am very jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion”, and promises to relieve them at the expense of their oppressors (Zechariah ch1 vv14-15).

This brings us to God’s “wrath”.

The “wrath” of God in the Old Testament represents his reaction to encroachments upon the objects of his jealousy.
Since he is jealous for the allegiance of his people, his wrath is directed against the promoters of idolatry.
As in the episode of the Golden Calf, when God said “Let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them” Exodus ch32 v9).
And the retrospective account in Deuteronomy says about Israel’s history;
“They went and served other gods and worshipped them, gods whom they had not known… and the Lord uprooted them from their land in anger and fury and great wrath” (Deuteronomy ch29 vv25-28).

He is jealous about other aspects of his authority.
Thus encroaching upon anything that is “holy to the Lord” may provoke his wrath.
That was the sin of Achan, holding back some of the booty of Jericho (Joshua ch22 v20).
It would have been the sin of people touching the ark, which is why the Levites were interposed (Numbers ch1 v53).
In a less direct way, it was the sin of Israel “murmuring” against the Lord (Numbers ch16 v46) or David attempting a census (2 Chronicles ch27 v24).
In fact his wrath extends to disobedience in general.
According to Ezekiel, it had been provoked against the land by violence and injustice and dishonestly gained wealth; (Ezekiel ch7 v12).
Similarly, Zechariah reminded the people how the Lord had been teaching them through the prophets;
“Thus says the Lord of hosts, Render true judgements, show kindness and mercy each to his brother, do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor, and let none of you devise evil against his brother in your heart”.
But the people had refused to listen to these injunctions, making their hearts “like adamant”.
“Therefore great wrath came from the Lord of hosts” (Zechariah ch7 vv8-12).
When God’s wrath falls upon his own people in this way, it might be called “disciplinary” wrath, because the purpose is to guide them away from what is wrong, like the discipline of a parent or teacher.

While his protective jealousy calls out a “protective” wrath, which falls upon those who place his people in danger and threaten their existence.
Nahum spells out the connection;
“The Lord is a jealous God and avenging, the Lord is avenging and wrathful;
The Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies” (Nahum ch1 v2).
Nahum is thinking of the Assyrians, but the same wrath was active against Pharaoh (Exodus ch15 v7).
The Psalmist makes it a general rule;
“Why do the nations conspire … against the Lord and his anointed?... He will speak to them in his wrath and terrify them in his fury” (Psalm ch2 vv1-5).

But we need to distinguish between these qualities in God’s nature, and the human emotions which go by the same names.

Human emotions are driving forces.
They are named from the fact that they move people (from the Latin E+MOVERE).
Like an almost external influence, they cut across the process of rational decision-making.
Obviously a Creator God, by definition, cannot be moved or controlled by something “beyond” himself, so it is quite right to affirm
that he cannot be subject to emotions.

But the “wrath” of God is not something which drives him and moves his will.
It’s an action which takes place under his conscious control.
It may be allowed to subside once the object has been achieved;
“For in my wrath I smote you, but in my favour I have had mercy upon you” (Isaiah ch60 v10)
In fact God may choose to restrain his wrath, allowing it to be postponed;
“He restrained his anger often, and did not stir up all his wrath” (Psalm 78 v38).
Since the operation of wrath is by no means automatic, there is something to be gained from praying that it might be averted, as Moses does (Exodus ch32 v12), and Hezekiah (2 Chronicles ch29 v10).

The “jealousy” of God is really his declared intention to preserve what belongs to his authority.
The “wrath” of God is really the action that he takes to reclaim what belongs to his authority.
They are not emotions, but the operations of, and the expressions of, his conscious will.

Since a God is necessarily ”impassive”, unaffected by human emotions, the emotions which are attributed to him, such as jealousy and wrath (and even love), are emotions only by analogy.
They do have similar practical effects on our world. They demand reactions from us which resemble a reaction to those emotions. In the case of his “jealousy” and “wrath”, the words are telling us that we need to be wary of crossing his purposes.

Therefore human language uses these words about him because no better words are available.
They have a certain value in communicating what we need to know about his intentions.
But we should not press them so far, or take them so literally, that they confuse our understanding of his nature.
That is what I mean when I say that jealousy and wrath (as assigned to the Biblical God) are not emotions.

a reply to: DISRAELI

All the verses are different than the preserved word of God has them.

for example Nahum 1:2 reads, "God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies."

a big difference and different meanings. And it most definitely isn't "the Lord" it is "the LORD" that too is a big difference. The LORD is not one of many Lords he is "the Lord of Lords"

a reply to: ChesterJohn
Obviously I'm using a more modern translation.
I can see no differences in meaning.
Until you can find one, why not focus on the substance of the topic?

a reply to: DISRAELI

This entity makes Jealousy an emotional issue...

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

So jealous in fact that he takes his revenge on the innocent as you can clearly see...

It comes down to pettiness, which is one of the many reasons why i don't believe this is God...

An all powerful God would have control over all of creation, thus even in the case of Idols in his own house... he/she/it should have little problem disposing of such things

Taking a page from Arius... God has no reason to be Jealous, unless said entity knows there are others...

originally posted by: Akragon
So jealous in fact that he takes his revenge on the innocent as you can clearly see...

It was one practical way of disciplining and teaching an entire society, which is what he is trying to do.

An all powerful God would have control over all of creation, thus even in the case of Idols in his own house... he/she/it should have little problem disposing of such things

This is the old "God should do everything by instant zapping" theory. Obviously this God normally chooses not to work by instant zapping, and prefers more indirect methods. Until we've got experience of our own in building universes, we're not in a position to judge his methods.

Taking a page from Arius... God has no reason to be Jealous, unless said entity knows there are others...

That cheap crack involves misunderstanding the word "jealousy" as the human emotion, the fallacy which I'm trying to refute. Arius should have had enough philosophical training to know better, because the misleading nature of anthropomorphic language was already being explained by his contemporaries.
Nothing in the "jealousy" of God implies that the "others" are equals.
(Taking my "classroom" analogy again, the teacher could be described as "jealous" of the view outside the window).

a reply to: DISRAELI

David attempting a census (2 Chronicles ch27 v24).

So I looked into the census sin.

Exodus 30:11Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 12"When you take a census of the children of Israel, according to those who are numbered among them, then each man shall give a ransom for his soul to Yahweh, when you number them; that there be no plague among them when you number them. 13They shall give this, everyone who passes over to those who are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary; (the shekel is twenty gerahs) half a shekel for an offering to Yahweh. 14Everyone who passes over to those who are numbered, from twenty years old and upward, shall give the offering to Yahweh. 15The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less, than the half shekel, when they give the offering of Yahweh, to make atonement for your souls. 16You shall take the atonement money from the children of Israel, and shall appoint it for the service of the Tent of Meeting; that it may be a memorial for the children of Israel before Yahweh, to make atonement for your souls."
- WEB -

The money collected was supposed to go toward the sacred ritual. Two possibilities: Either the census ransom wasn't collected or there was no tent ritual being done at the time. I do seem to remember a story about either one of David's wives or one of Solomon's wives being freaked out about the tent and/or ark stored in a spare room of the palace, therefore a separate dwelling place was needed for the wife. Sounds kind of like Solomon's wife.

a reply to: pthena
After the ark was brought back to Jerusalem, "the ark of the Lord dwells in a tent" (2 Samuel ch7 v2), so it looks as though the tent was erected somewhere in the city.
When the Temple was being dedicated, the ark and the tent were brought into it together (1 Kings ch8 v4).

In fact, now that I look into Chronicles, 1 Chronicles ch16 v1 spells it out- "set it inside the tent which David had pitched for it".

a reply to: DISRAELI

I am sorry but jealousy is an emotion that provokes Yahweh to anger and written on almost every page of the OT. Slight exaggeration but he is a jealous "Elohim" but thankfully not the Most High God but a Son of El (Deuteronomy 32) who was the god of Israel only and not a very nice one.

He doesn't like it when the Israelites make a golden calf so he has a bunch of people killed and others made to consume the golden calf.

His jealousy is all over the Old Testament and his commandments are testimony to his admission of jealousy, a human emotion one would not expect from a divine being of Omnipotence and Omniscience, neither of which he has. He has trouble locating Adam in the garden of Eden and has not the foresight to prevent the biggest disaster in the Bible, the fall of Adam and Eve.

He fails on page 1, 2 or 3 and then has to destroy the world because he couldn't reign his people the Watchers in.

The angels knew he was unjust and rebelled. Although punished, a competent God should be more capable of seeing the future and because of his inadequacies many suffered and he is at it today in the same places as in the Bible.

Yahweh is the fallen of Isaiah 14:12 if you do a thorough investigation. Words may hide it but the truth is in there if you have a competent translation that doesn't rely on the highly corrupt Masoretic texts the KJ and NIV use.

a reply to: Muffenstuff
You are answered in the OP, Tommy.

a reply to: DISRAELI

So you have something against a guy named Tommy, keep me out of it please.

You didn't answer anything that relates to my comment in your op. Not one thing. You tried to make Yahweh look good but the Bible is of no help in this area. All it does is make him look evil.

I failed to mention Yahweh retroactively confessed to having had the Hebrews sacrifice their first born child, Ezekiel I think is where.

Giving a "God" human emotions is common in polytheism but in Monotheism it is a problem.

Who wants a jealous, angry grudge holding deity to be master of the universe?

Not I who is of the Most High.

Hail Satan

originally posted by: DISRAELI
…the purpose of the relationship is that he wants to teach them his ways,

originally posted by: DISRAELI
Since the long-term intention is to extend the teaching role to the world at large…

This is incorrect and is assumptive.If this God you call the biblical God was teaching what you call his people (the genetic nation of Israel) and then all people the way of Life then the biblical God did and is doing a very,very poor job because the students didn’t and haven’t learned anything and it has all came to naught.

However the basis of your post title premise is true.A creator God does not experience human emotions of jealousy and wrath or even what is called love.Those words are mere shadows of what the true nature that characterizes them.

Therefore what is written of the creator God in the scriptures is not literal truth because humans cannot know the true nature and character(name) of the creator God.That is the core of the fallacy of ALL religion.The God that is believed by the religious cannot be the creator God it is only a God made in the religious mans image(imagination).Yahoshua verified that state of mind when he told the religious leaders of the Jews:

“You search[study] the scriptures thinking that IN them you have life yet they are which testify of me and you will not come to me that you would have life.I do not receive honor from men but I know that you do not have the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me.If another shall come in his own name, him you will receive”.

The biblical God and Jesus you write of and believe(trust) in is the evidence that you do not honor Yahoshua nor love the creator God.The writers of the old testament did not know the creator God either.The things they attribute to that God are abhorrent and patently false and do not harmonize with the name of the creator God.They were completely blind to the nature and character(the definition of a name) of the creator God or they would have loved and obeyed(heard) them and would not be under the creator God’s wrath and jealousy.

The same is true of ALL whom believe(trust) in the God of their religion.This was the crux of what Yahoshua said over and over yet the religious could and can not now hear.That is the true jealousy and wrath of the creator God when mankind(Israel) makes the biblical God and Jesus into idols.

The clear fact is a person can never “know” the creator God while they believe(trust) in false idol God’s(Elohim).That is why humankind is the archetype of Israel which means struggles with Elohim.The purpose of the scriptures is not as you believe , to teach God’s people .It is as Yahoshua stated…. a testimony that testifies of Yahoshua(the creator God’s deliverance/salvation).

As Yahoshua stated very clearly, anyone who tries to study the scriptures to find life( i.e use the bible,koran etc etc… as a guide to life) cannot come to Yahoshua.The scriptures(what is written) is only a testimony that testifies of mans need for Yahoshua(deliverance) “from” Hades(the realm of death(the grave) and imperception(the false perception of religious belief).All those that believe the scriptures are the guide book(s) of life are under the creator Gods wrath and jealousy which are NOT emotions but states of being.

Of course the creator God is very aware of all of these conditions because they are in a state of BEING Life(spirit) that is why they “will”(but have not yet) deliver ALL of creation from Hades.None have been born anew yet ..hell none have even been born into Life yet!!All of creation(the physical universe) is the valley of the shadow of death where EVERYTHING dies…even the physical universe itself!

The creator God is very cognizant humans can learn NOTHING of Life nor can they enter the kingdom of their heavens(the authority of rulership of their mind) until they are in the state of being in the Kingdom of the creator God and so until then they under the creator God’s wrath and jealousy.

a reply to: DISRAELI

After the ark was brought back to Jerusalem, "the ark of the Lord dwells in a tent" (2 Samuel ch7 v2), so it looks as though the tent was erected somewhere in the city.
When the Temple was being dedicated, the ark and the tent were brought into it together (1 Kings ch8 v4).

In fact, now that I look into Chronicles, 1 Chronicles ch16 v1 spells it out- "set it inside the tent which David had pitched for it".

Right, all that, but there was some considerable span of years between the ark being brought into the city and the temple getting built. At some time, the ark and tent must have been stored away in some closet or other.

1 Kings 3:1Solomon made affinity with Pharaoh king of Egypt, and took Pharaoh's daughter, and brought her into the city of David, until he had made an end of building his own house, and the house of Yahweh, and the wall of Jerusalem all around. 2Only the people sacrificed in the high places, because there was no house built for the name of Yahweh until those days.

3Solomon loved Yahweh, walking in the statutes of David his father: only he sacrificed and burnt incense in the high places. 4The king went to Gibeon to sacrifice there; for that was the great high place: a thousand burnt offerings did Solomon offer on that altar. 5In Gibeon Yahweh appeared to Solomon in a dream by night; and God said, "Ask what I shall give you."

After the temple was built and after a separate palace was made for Pharaoh's Daughter:

2 Chron 8:11 Solomon brought up the daughter of Pharaoh out of the city of David to the house that he had built for her; for he said, "My wife shall not dwell in the house of David king of Israel, because the places where the ark of Yahweh has come are holy."

Maybe I saw a movie once or something wherein the Pharaoh's Daughter is strolling through the house of David and spots the tent and ark in a spare room and says, "Whoa dude! Sol, my king, I can't stay here. You better build me my own palace!"

ETA

I was just clearing up something from the last thread. Looks like you've got a really tough crowd here tonight. So, no need to respond.

a reply to: DISRAELI

It follows, from this, that he has a claim on them, in addition to the more fundamental claim which follows from his role as the Creator of life. This claim is described as “jealousy”.
........
This language is associated with the kind of loyalty expected in a marriage relationship

So, biblically, a husband has a claim on his wife? Do jealousy and wrath turn into emotions when we're talking about the relationship between a husband and his wife?

a reply to: Rex282

I find the problem is that people don't know how to read the scriptures. You don't accept that God is a vile murderer and try and justify it you find out what the author was trying to convey at the time it was written.

The process of writing the Bible involves repeated typology and allegory and the process of interpreting it involves thinking outside the box and learning more about the esoteric than modern Christianity is willing to learn as well as studying Apocryphal writings like Enoch that elaborate upon the Tanakh and even Zohar.

But the literal approach produces a people comfortable with a 1000 year reign of terror under a Beast and a "God" of genocide.

If you read it like a grown up and don't take it literally it is a pretty good book. It actually is enlightening in many ways to learn the scriptures of the Jews.

originally posted by: Rex282
Therefore what is written of the creator God in the scriptures is not literal truth because humans cannot know the true nature and character(name) of the creator God

Another problem is that we are trying to describe in human words something for which no words can exist, so the words will be inaccurate and potentially misleading.
In tis case, they are misleading because they are anthropomorphic, assigning human emotions to one who does not feel human emotions.

originally posted by: windword
So, biblically, a husband has a claim on his wife? Do jealousy and wrath turn into emotions when we're talking about the relationship between a husband and his wife?

Men and women are humans, so obviously they have human emotions. I am talking here about the words "jealousy" and "wrath" when they are being applied to God himself. The point is that they are being used as an approximate analogy, so their normal meaning is applicable only in a limited way.

originally posted by: pthena
Right, all that, but there was some considerable span of years between the ark being brought into the city and the temple getting built. At some time, the ark and tent must have been stored away in some closet or other.

That point appears to be answered by the Chronicles quote, which implies that when the ark was brought to the city the tent had already been pitched. Presumably an open space in the city had been found or cleared. Indeed from 1 Chronicles ch16 vv37-42 the worship was continuous there under Asaph.
I think the Chronicler would have a bias towards continuity, so I trust that statement more because of the 2 Samuel "the Lord dwells in a tent".

In the text, it was Pharaoh's daughter, as a foreigner, who was unfit to live in the same city as the ark, rather than the other way round. Hollywood would not be able to grasp that logic. Given the number of foreign wives Solomon had, this could be the Chronicler's idea of what Solomon should have said.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

two obvious are Wrath and furious they are not the same. And neither is Lord and LORD.

Ignorance is bliss as they say.

I'll go my way.