Is Bitcoin real money? Florida judge says no

a reply to: GBP/JPY

nothing backs bitcoin.....so,....

only the currency you buy it with and the currency you sell it for.

a reply to: Ohanka

same goes for fiat currency.

how does this effect the tax status of bitcoin?

is trade in bitcoin considered "commerce"? Is fraud even legally possible with bitcoin? Can we just go back to making wampum instead?

Of course fraud is possible.

From that linked article:

"And of course, for the growing criminal element that likes to deal in Bitcoin (for say, ransomware payments!), its cryptocurrency status – and subsequent legal grey area – is a boon to their business, and helps keep the law at arm’s length."

You must separate the money laundry criminal act from all other criminal acts related to bitcoins.The grey area isn't really grey...

If someone is charged with a crime, you must prove all elements that are included in the description of that crime. So, if part of the description is money then you must check the definition of money. Usually the state considers as money the currency that is issued by the state (US or any other) via special procedures and based on acts and so on. Since bitcoin does not comply to such procedure is in this regard practically the same as monopoli money or beans if you want, since it does not fit the official description of "money" term.

That doesn't mean you can't make a fraud with bitcoins, cause fraud can include practically every item- you can for example agree to exchange your car or a yacht for a house or bitcoins and if there is an intent to not fulfil the contract then you can still commit a fraud (no idea what is the exact description of fraud in US crime code or whatever they have...). You can also steal bitcoin and that will be considered as theft, cause you can steal every movable item.

Maybe it is easier to understand if you imagine that bitcoin as virtual currency is practically the same as shares for shareholders that nowadays are issued only virtually on some account. For most cases this analogy works.

a reply to: HunkaHunka

Possibly someone should inform this judge that moneys not real ether.

All currency is simply an accounting device to help keep track of the amount of services you have provided (how much work you did).

When you get paid, you are getting compensated for a unit of work you provided or a good you produced. When you buy something, you exchange an unit of work you did for something that someone else produced with the amount of work they did.

That's how currency started, and that's what it still is when it's stripped down to its basic definition and purpose.

a reply to: GBP/JPY

originally posted by: GBP/JPY
nothing backs bitcoin.....so,....

what backs US Federal Reserve notes? Oh yeah, also nothing

a reply to: Krneki

what im getting at is Capone was brought down by the IRS due to various fraud and tax regulations.

If Bitcoin isn't currency, does it have any intrinsic value legally? Would the IRS be able to avail itself in racketeering charges when currency is not used?

Sounds like this judge just cut the legs out from under RICO

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

According to the IRS, some barter transactions can be taxable income (depending on the details of the transaction).

Therefore, currency does not necessarily need to be involved when it comes to a transaction being taxable, and if you don't pay the income taxes on that barter-only/no-currency transaction, you could be in violation of the tax laws.

So, no...Currency is not required for tax violations.

originally posted by: Box of Rain
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

According to the IRS, some barter transactions can be taxable income (depending on the details of the transaction).

Therefore, currency does not necessarily need to be involved when it comes to a transaction being taxable, and if you don't pay the income taxes on that barter-only/no-currency transaction, you could be in violation of the tax laws.

So, no...Currency is not required for tax violations.

it'd take some hellacious forensic accounting to untangle a missing ledger full of barter transactions.



Something else to think about: as it pertains to personal property taxes, illicit trade rips off taxing entities that levy based on personal property tax. Inventory that isn't consumable is taxed as "personal property" when real property tax assessments are filed.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: Box of Rain
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

According to the IRS, some barter transactions can be taxable income (depending on the details of the transaction).

Therefore, currency does not necessarily need to be involved when it comes to a transaction being taxable, and if you don't pay the income taxes on that barter-only/no-currency transaction, you could be in violation of the tax laws.

So, no...Currency is not required for tax violations.

it'd take some hellacious forensic accounting to untangle a missing ledger full of barter transactions.

True. But the point is that there is precedent for the IRS claiming that people are committing tax violations when no legal U.S. currency is involved.

So a transaction in which Bitcoins were used for trade could also fall under the purview of IRS tax laws. If Al Capone were around today and used Bitcoin for all of his illegal transactions rather than U.S. currency, then the IRS could probably still build a tax fraud case against him.

SPAM removed by admin

originally posted by: HunkaHunka

Espinoza and his lawyers celebrated victory as they secured the result they’d been hoping for: the judge dismissed the felony charges on the basis that Bitcoin cannot be laundered – because it isn’t really money.

Court declares Bitcoin to be "Not real money"

So the court doesn't believe bitcoin is real money, so it can't be part of a laundering scheme? How does this decree impact the cryptocurrency markets? This is very interesting. How do you feel being told that Bitcoin isn't real?

Everyone knows bitcoin is a virtual currency and everyone knows Bitcoin can be exchange to real money.... they are noobs to technology or they just want a complicated procedure that makes money for them...

a reply to: lucky80



Interesting graph on its growth. The pie shows China as a big player. news.bitcoin.com...

I recently bought something in the Netherlands with Bitcoin. They wouldn't accept credit cards or Western Union. It was either Bitcoin or a bank wire.

The good thing about Bitcoin is the fact that nobody is in control of it. No foreign private elite group dictates how much it is worth. No Armies are needed due to the technology. You can't counterfeit it.

The only bad thing about it. If your careless you could lose it.

I can convert it to US dollar directly through my bank or vise versa for a low fee. I never convert it to cash because no one will make it clear what the tax will be. Plus, because their is a limited amount of Bitcoin, it will likely go up in value.

originally posted by: Doctor Smith
I recently bought something in the Netherlands with Bitcoin. They wouldn't accept credit cards or Western Union. It was either Bitcoin or a bank wire.

The good thing about Bitcoin is the fact that nobody is in control of it. No foreign private elite group dictates how much it is worth. No Armies are needed due to the technology. You can't counterfeit it.

The only bad thing about it. If your careless you could lose it.

I can convert it to US dollar directly through my bank or vise versa for a low fee. I never convert it to cash because no one will make it clear what the tax will be. Plus, because their is a limited amount of Bitcoin, it will likely go up in value.

As a payment method bitcoin is reasonably good.

However that doesn't make it a currency and it doesn't make it a good investment.

Scarcity by itself does not make something valuable.

a reply to: GBP/JPY

well yea it does. it is backed with the currency bought and cashed in for. be it dollars, yuan, yen, pesos, rubles, or what have you. the bitcoin deal is nothing but a scam.



ETA: aw hell i didn't look at the date, i already said this.

originally posted by: hounddoghowlie
a reply to: GBP/JPY

well yea it does. it is backed with the currency bought and cashed in for. be it dollars, yuan, yen, pesos, rubles, or what have you. the bitcoin deal is nothing but a scam.



ETA: aw hell i didn't look at the date, i already said this.

I wish I would have bought into the scam earlier when Bitcoin was 8 cents. I was trying to buy a thousand dollars but closed my browser because it was just a scam. A thousand dollars invested in 2010 would be worth around 12.3 million today. I made a hell of a lot of money with Bitcoin. Making all my wasted time on the net worth it.

What will it be worth tomorrow? $0 or $40,000.

Crypto coin market

Bitcoin is worth $989.35 right now today. It is the most valuable currency the world has ever seen.

originally posted by: Doctor Smith
Bitcoin is worth $989.35 right now today. It is the most valuable currency the world has ever seen.

It had pass USD 1000 for a few weeks and yes bitcoin had $16,052,857,681 market cap. It think it will pass $1000 and will stay $ 1100 - 1200 price or maybe more....