Collaboration Series: Transgenders and Discrimination.

Hello, fellow members of Above Top Secret.

In the past, I have called upon members to collaborate, to consider alternatives, open their minds, to compromise and to overall seek solutions in which can benefit the most people. Unfortunately I have been guilty of not doing these things myself, sometimes I close my mind, sometimes I close my thought process to certain ideas, to certain lines of thinking - I believe I am in a superior position and that I know better, that what I believe and how I feel somehow are above discussion, that my fears and my worries cannot even be combated with data, statistics, etc. I am guilty of all of this when it comes to the trans issue - I have taken such a harsh stance against it, I couldn't even see the other side.

I feel the stars and flags I have received writing such topics are not deserved, I feel as if I have caused more division and less unison. I feel as if I have only fueled this fire that is not burning out. For these things, I apologize, fellow members.

I am sorry.

And so, after writing a all too many negative threads about the Trans topic, I have decided to write a more positive thread - a unison of sorts - An attempt to understand both sides, and hope that those on all sides of the issue can feel free to discuss all aspects of this debate with me in a more peaceful environment. My following post in only my thoughts on the matter, and I hope to see your thoughts as well regardless if you agree with me or not, I'd like a discussion, a coming together on this topic. - Please try to be respectful and honest, and attempt to use water, and not gasoline as I myself have, on this topic that has become a raging fire as of late.

The way I see it, a lot of contention is coming from both sides not understanding the thoughts, intentions, worries, of the other - Not understanding where this problem even came from in the first place, not understanding exactly what solution, to exactly what problem is being debated. I've come to understand the issues, the statistics, and the thoughts on both sides a lot more.

First, to talk about those that are against these laws - I was unapologetic in this stance even days ago. I wasn't going to have it, I wasn't going to allow a "bearded man" into the same room as my little daughter. I was very angry at those that couldn't understand this stance - Why they keep posting pictures of "lady-looking" men with racks when I am obviously talking about large bearded men not covered in make-up, not taking hormones. I just couldn't piece together why this argument wasn't clicking with THEM - But then it clicked with me.

This are neither the circumstances that occur under such laws, and are not the circumstances being advocated for.

There's no laws advocating for cis-gender people to be able to use the opposing restrooms - These laws don't create "free-for-all" situations, these laws do not invite anyone who feels like entering a private area, to do so. These laws are specifically written to ensure that a person is not discriminated against in various situations, public areas including bathrooms being just one facet of a larger picture. Statistics show cities and states have not seen a rise in sexual violence or other public safety issues due to nondiscrimination laws.4vawa.org...

Real sex-crime statistics are far more worrying and scary than anyone taking a piss.

Want to really ensure your kids are safe? Keep a better eye on your friends, your brothers, uncles, or husband. I really wish I was kidding but the overwhelming majority of sexual crimes are committed by someone the person knows. Only 10-15 percent are committed by a stranger.

On the other hand the 10-15% is still scary - not statistically raised by anti-discrimination laws, but nonetheless, I hear you. I believe unisex and family bathrooms in general should be adopted by many more businesses, and government/public buildings should also have them. There's a lot of reasons for unisex bathrooms with full-sized stalls with locks - Trans is only one of them, but honestly it's a win, win situation overall.

Still on the topic of sexual crime - Trans people are far more likely to be the victim in such crimes - And higher incidents of these crimes occur when they are, for instance, in a restroom they do not fit in. Want to reduce sex crime in a statistically backed way? Allow people to use the restroom they identify with so they are not attacked/sexually assaulted due to their appearance ( such as a (male)lady in the males restroom)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Onto the next part of this thread!
Addressing those that are advocating for these discrimination laws.

I mentioned earlier in this thread the ways in which I agreed with those that are against these laws, and would like to talk more about this point. It's very hard to debate a topic when someone is genuinely in fear of a situation being caused by legislation they do not understand, and have not experienced for themselves. A lot of people that are against these laws are in genuine fear of a bearded cis-gendered man following their daughter into a bathroom.

Now, some sensible people will repeat what I said above, that this circumstance is not one that is being advocated for, and is also not the circumstance that happens according to data. However, other people will emulate myself and use gasoline on this fire, and create a battle out of it. They will mention "Bathroom police" and ask why another person should be able to define who can and cannot use said restroom. They will "fight" for a large bearded man to have the right to use the ladies room - And I'm not sure why.

Real facts - something like 96% of sexual crimes are by men - Men have historically dressed like woman, installed cameras, peep-holes, double-mirrors, etc, any way they can to peep on females - They risk being caught, and even repeat such crimes after being caught. Now, the data shows that crime has not increased from this legislation being passed, but no one in the history (including when states have passed such laws) of the USA has "fought" for the right of a large man with a beard to enter the ladies room, nor do I think we ever need to allow such things to happen. It's proven that bad 'mostly' men will do all they can to peep, perv, whatever else . Allowing everyone, everywhere regardless of all evidence, is just plain a bad idea. You will never win the support of a large amount of Americans if you keep "fighting" for these bearded men. They are already crafty enough in their perverted ways, let's not even act like we want to make things more simple for them. ( Again, statistics show no raise in crime - But again, no one ever fought for bearded men before ) --- Keep the argument to the people you truly want to represent - People who identify with and attempt to BE the other gender.

Anyways, it's super late, I should go to bed but I would like to hear what others think about this. Whether you're for or against these laws, please explain why in a reasonable manner - Emotions and opinions definitely matter as we are human, but try using data to back up your stance if you wouldn't mind, it will paint a much clearer picture. - Thank you for reading - Deadlyhope

a reply to: deadlyhope

Most of that is reasonable. And I almost never agree with you.

Personally, I think given the low population of trans in the US that the third room is the answer. Just calve off part of the two existing facilities where the existing bathrooms are meant to service more than one and make a third "family" or gender neutral facility. Such facilities are useful for more than transpeople who do not already look like what they transitioned to, they are helpful for families with small kids who aren't quite ready to go to the larger restrooms independently but are getting big enough to be aware.

Like mine, he hates doing with mommy because he knows he should be in the men's room. Much easier when the facility is a small family or private one. This one could be used by trans too. Then they wouldn't have to feel like they are being "shunted aside" because they aren't.

The same could be done with locker and shower facilities.

a reply to: deadlyhope

It takes a better person to admit they were wrong, so I commend you.

I am convinced that this actually began as a political issue. We all know how hard the political right fought to not allow same-sex marriage. I honestly found that "most" of the general population really didn't care, with the exception of religious groups. But the devoutly religious have become the base of the Republican party, so it's no surprise that the GOP, wanting to appease their base, made a big show of trying to stop gays from getting marriage licenses. Well, we all know how that ended up. The religious right lost that battle when marriage equality became the law of the land.

With that major Supreme Court ruling, I believe the trans community saw an opportunity to push for their own non-discrimination rights. This is why we started seeing more city ordinances recently adding gender identity to their non-discrimination laws. There had already been ordinances passed in cities of conservative states years ago, but it didn't attract the attention of Republican politicians in those states at that time. Now, however, because of the loss of the same sex marriage battle, those politicians are particularly sensitive to how their religious base is feeling. Now, as more city ordinances are being passed, the political right is taking notice and trying once again to solidify their super conservative base. To do this, they use the argument "If we pass these non-discrimination ordinances, we'll have a bunch of predators taking advantage of it and attacking our women and children in the bathrooms/lockers, etc." They know full well there was no convincing evidence of this - it's political show. It pleases their religious base, and helps rile up the rest of the Republicans join the "battle". This is good for votes, plain and simple.

Now I believe there are people out there who have genuinely fallen for this claptrap. They didn't realize that there has been precedence which shows this is a made-up issue. I also believe there are people smart enough to know better, but who do not like the idea of transgender people and get angry at seeing them "win" something like this. It is those people who really get to me, because their goal is simply to get back at those whom they find "icky".

No, the battle for non-discrimination does not include letting "big hairy men" into the women's room. That's not what we are fighting for. We (those who fight for civil rights) are simply fighting to stop schools from forcing genuine trans kids out of the facilities that fit them best. We are fighting to stop employers from forcing their transgender employees out of the bathroom that fit them best. We are fighting to stop all places of public accommodation from forcing transgender people out of the bathroom that fit them best. We are not fighting to let big hairy men into the women's room. There is no evidence that big hairy men are legally getting into women's rooms in areas of the country where transgender people are protected. There is no evidence that predators are legally piling into the women's room as a result of these laws. There's no evidence that a bunch of horny 16 year old boys are getting into the girls' locker rooms by simply saying they feel like a girl today.

This whole thing is fear mongering for votes. The people who fell for it need to wise up, and the people who just don't want to see the trans community "win" need to get over it.

a reply to: ketsuko

I do realize that this issue might represent a lesser portion of a lot of the population, but it's big enough to have created enough attention even before it was being used as a political hot topic. I find that it's reasonable to address all issues we can, big and small. The compromise you come up with is certainly reasonable, it's even one I've suggested before - A third restroom for families and a gender-neutral bathroom where all could go.

However, as adding a restroom to thousands, tens of thousands, who knows exactly many places, would be a large dollar cost, there's more logic in it to me to just allow others into the restroom they want to go in - there's no statistical evidence such laws create more crime or that anyone is in more danger because of these laws. If this issue did represent a larger amount of the population, I believe other solutions might be needed, but as is, 0.3% of the population can just as easily work within the current system we have without too much hassle - Some people whether emotionally or otherwise disagree but the largest fights have been over the concept, the worst crimes have happened because of a debate, not due to the actual implementation.

Just my two cents.

Edit: Passing the non-discrimination laws also validates the trans community - And while I used to not want to validate such things, there's simply too much medical evidence and otherwise that things like this just occur. Animals change their gender and roles all the time for instance, things in the animal world are much more strange than us humans ever experience. We just as well adapt to something that might be even more common in the future than it is now, and realize it's just a part of being another Animal on this earth - We only have issues with it because we can think of it in terms that other animals may not be able to.

a reply to: deadlyhope

However, as adding a restroom to thousands, tens of thousands, who knows exactly many places, would be a large dollar cost

On the bright side that could create more jobs and most of us know the country could use more of those.

a reply to: kaylaluv

I do believe the men in DC are not here to represent the average person. This includes 99% of democrats, independents, libertarians, republicans - They look out for themselves and their own and damn everyone else and their freedom, their way of life.

I truly believe even those representing this issue are doing it for devious reasons. You'll see politicians flip-flop on issues all the time depending on what's popular that week, depending on what will create divisions and rifts with the opposite party. This issue could have been solved quietly through courts, could have been resolved within a congressional session. Honest people putting their heads together to come to a solution would have come up with SOMETHING better than a huge nation-wide partisan fight.

But, the Conservatives saw their chance to start a fire, so they took it. Both sides will do this though. Some will uproar " one poor little kid got shot let's ignore that 1,000,000 have been saved by guns. " ( Let's not get into this topic for the record, just making a point)- It's all based on agenda, it's all a game.

I'm here to talk to all of you people - Because I really don't believe you have an agenda. I believe you have an opinion, and came to that opinion for various reasons. Some may have previously taken the same position as I did previously, some may have taken the opposing stance, and others might be in the middle. I'd like to talk about that. I'd like to communicate with my fellow citizens, I'd like to come together.

So thanks for posting, Kayla. Sorry for my hard-headedness in other threads.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

Ha - I suppose so.

I do think there's a lot of reasons to add family/other restrooms where possible. I think all new public projects should include them, I think businesses would be smart to adopt them as well - and they have been. While I don't personally believe it 100% necessary for the trans population in theory, unfortunately the reality shows it would be a good thing for them as well. it would likely give them the safest place they could have. - Statistics DO SHOW that trans people have been harassed, abused, assaulted physically and sexually - in way higher amounts than most all other demographics - Adding in the "other" restroom would be a way to help a lot of different people worried about such things, not to mention aid in other cases - Fathers/girls, Mother/boys would have an obvious place to go even if their kid is nearing teen years, Trans people would have a safer place to go if they needed somewhere different than the regular 2 choices, and the like.

a reply to: reldra

I think we'd come to a lot more agreements if we had collaboration talks.

A lot of my threads are rants in which I just spew out nonsense about something I'm ignorant about. I totally admit this - It's why I use the rant section in the first place. It's designed for "Ranting" and all.

It doesn't really excuse me altogether though, my apologies.

a reply to: deadlyhope

I'm okay with gender neutral/family restrooms being added, as long as they are for anyone to use, not for forcing trans people into - that would be discrimination. If a trans person wants to use the family restroom - great. If they don't, they shouldn't be forced to. If a woman wants to use the family restroom instead of the women's room - great.

Trans people are mentally ill, PERIOD. I don't say that hatefully but factually. Society does not need to conform for them, all society owes them is protection from hate crimes. By this logic schizophrenics can use whatever name they want on legal documents, midgets are entitled to have tiny versions of everything and people with depression and anxiety are entitled to their "safe spaces". People like to disregard the notion of the "slippery slope" however in this instance it's relevant.

a reply to: JBDTheBeast

I'm glad you're a mental health expert. What's your medical degree in? Do you specialize in gender dysphoria? What research studies have you worked on regarding this subject? How long have you been working in this field?

a reply to: JBDTheBeast

I take it your unaware or just don't care that little person's with Dwarfism do not like to be called "midgets" these days. I also presume that you do not care and will continue to live in your antiquated mindset lacking any compassion and/or understanding of all things you consider not to be "normal"

You don't strike me as someone who has any true sense of knowledge, experience or education on these matters so in affect your opinion means zero to me and amounts to nothing more than hate speech.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: JBDTheBeast

I'm glad you're a mental health expert. What's your medical degree in? Do you specialize in gender dysphoria? What research studies have you worked on regarding this subject? How long have you been working in this field?

your the "guy" who thinks you need a degree to know that a man who's brain tells him that he's a woman was born with a mental defect. I have what's called critical thinking skills, with this awesome power I can actually figure things out on my own with out having someone else downloading their opinions into my brain.

a reply to: JBDTheBeast

Well you are at least unaware of T&C's as outright calling someone a moron is a direct insult and should see your post removed. Hopefully the mods pick up on your foul mouthed rant. None of us directly called you name so calm down killa.

a reply to: JBDTheBeast

Ever consider that the body got it wrong and not the brain? The brain usually tells the body what to do, but maybe the body screwed up and didn't do what it was told? Critical thinkers know how to think outside the box.

originally posted by: RainbowPhoenix
a reply to: JBDTheBeast

I take it your unaware or just don't care that little person's with Dwarfism do not like to be called "midgets" these days. I also presume that you do not care and will continue to live in your antiquated mindset lacking any compassion and/or understanding of all things you consider not to be "normal"

You don't strike me as someone who has any true sense of knowledge, experience or education on these matters so in affect your opinion means zero to me and amounts to nothing more than hate speech.

Dang buddy that hate speech bit actually made me laugh. So let me get this straight, how does one gain "experience" in transsexual "matters". You people are so odd? I will take my normal society of your caitlyn Jenner worship fest society any day. BTW I choose to use midget because it's what I CHOOSE, to call them your free to use whatever term you fund less offensive, I however as you correctly noted, could care less.

originally posted by: RainbowPhoenix
a reply to: JBDTheBeast

Well you are at least unaware of T&C's as outright calling someone a moron is a direct insult and should see your post removed. Hopefully the mods pick up on your foul mouthed rant. None of us directly called you name so calm down killa.

OMG way to reinforce that stereotype you got going there...should I change it "he who has no knowledge" loll OK I got u I'll fix it don't call the law

a reply to: JBDTheBeast

Realize that such things happen with animals and such as well, nature does not correct these instances in any case. Being gay for instance doesn't make sense in the animal kingdom, yet it occurs naturally. Some animals even pair as a gay couple for a time or longer, life.

So if animals and humans are naturally born this way - and the animal kingdom shows us it's not just an opinion or emotion, what do we do?

Segregate and call it a mental illness and beat down those born different from us?

Or accept them as they are and realize that many walks of life can coexist happily if we'd all just accept each other more?

You know what does not naturally occur in any other known species? Religion. And I am perfectly happy to accept that people believe and think in different ways, but when religion causes hatred through "morality", I deem it a much worse mental illness than anything gender related will ever be.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: JBDTheBeast

Ever consider that the body got it wrong and not the brain? The brain usually tells the body what to do, but maybe the body screwed up and didn't do what it was told? Critical thinkers know how to think outside the box.

I'll accept that premise but still no need for society to conform to small fringe groups.