Gender Choice and BEYOND...

I have certain opinions about why or how we are going about becoming more accepting of all lifestyles and life choices. I just wonder where this leads to in our future.

Currently being a single white male in his 20s in the US I have many facets to my outlook on life, but I assure you I am an accepting person. I work with troubled highschool youths and I love my work.

There are kids i have worked with that have circumstances that I could never imagine fixing because there is absolutley no way I could even begin to actually solve these issues. Some students have come to me with the complain that they view themselves as "ugly" and "unattractive". I assure them that these things they say are untrue, but they have peers and an entire social media network that will tell them otherwise.

Outward appearance to me is one of those things that is innate and changing that is tantamount to refusing your biological existence. I can understand that some people dont feel comfortable in their own skin due to views they have of their body and how it can be better, but to reduce your problem to something that can be fixed physically with surgery and how that will make eveything better is not the best option for a human's mental health in my opinion.

I am someone who does not enjoy the amount of plastic surgery that pervades the idea of what beauty is, and in my eyes it is the furthest from it. I will say to each their own, but I would rather have the individual perhaps try therapy before jumping into physical unecessary modification of their body.

In my opinion gender reassignment surgery falls into this category of plastic surgery. I know that there are some other social issues at hand with gay lesbian and transgender rights, but I don't think a healthy option is to make ones body fit a mold that is truly near impossible to fill.

When someone cant come to terms with a situation as it is and then forces it to go a certain way, and as far as I'm concerned an unnatural way, by changing the way their body is physically I feel is an easy way out and will not truly solve any problem that the patient feels that they are experiencing.

I do not respect the idea that I must be tolerant of the idea that it is a solution to reassign your gender as scientifically you were created a certain way.

Try this on for size...(hypothetical)

I have always felt as if i am a woman but i was born a man. Also I've been feeling that myself being born white or caucasian does not represent how i feel. I have made the decision that i would like to transition from a white man to a black woman.

For this hypothetical to be an actual situation is not far fetched as we have just recently dealt with Rachel Dolezal masquerading as a black woman leading a black organization. If this woman put herself out there in such a way when she knew she was born white and others knew she was born white then i could see this becoming more common an issue. As the US sits right now she did not recieve much respect for her decision to act this way, and i agree this is not a way anyone should act as there are certain facts about the world around us we cannot compete with or change.

I feel that her actions and the actions of people changing their gender fall into the same category where these options are available and expensive and doable, but will it solve the issue at hand?


My thoughts lead me to the conclusion that masquerading as something you are not will always be the poorer of the two choices to either accept yourself as you are or to believe you are physically inadequate to hold up to some sort of standard created by someone somewhere sometime that is not you or your situation.

I wish to hear others' opinions and discuss, as i believe I may be slightly on the fringe of this topic, but i believe my argument is sound. As for my lack of anything data related or sourced, these are my opinions and i hope i have stated them clearly and i truly do not want to offend anyone ever only open dialogue to help our community progress.

a reply to: Poofmander

I think society is too damned nosy as it is.

It's no ones business who or what you think you are.

As long as no one is infringing on the rights of any other person, then people should be free to be who they want, marry who they want, and use whatever damned toilet they want.

All of a sudden, government wants to know how you pee and where you pee.

Just let people be people, or have we lost that freedom also?

I think you are idealistic in your thinking, which I'd consider "normal" for someone in their 20s.

You will change your thinking many times over as you mature.

I think you need to educate yourself with real facts of what it is to be transgender. You don't seem to quite get it, IMO.

a reply to: Poofmander

I share your beliefs OP, and I am 38.

You want to help our community progress? Understand that there are things that you don't have all the info on, therefore can only give an uneducated opinion. At least admit that you don't know enough about the subject of gender dysphoria to intelligently discuss it.

Do you want to learn more? There are people on this site who are way better qualified than me to teach you.

Not interested in learning more? Then I'm done with this thread, as it is an obvious attempt at nothing more than demeaning transgender people everywhere.

I have to ask.

Does some of your thinking come from religious belief?

a reply to: Annee

Why do you have to ask that question? the OP didn't state anything about religion. What if he was atheist would you still have an argument?

The real question is why so many really really young right out of puberty young folk are asking these grown up questions. Biology or is it socially fed to them. Teens are naturally confused and questioning everything. We don't have enough science behind anything to reach any type of conclusion about anything.

Good luck with not offending anyone, you may discover that some people are born offended, especially about this topic. But enough said, I think I hear some angry mob approaching...

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: Annee

Why do you have to ask that question? the OP didn't state anything about religion. What if he was atheist would you still have an argument?

Interesting that you jump on an innocent question as nefarious.

Belief systems do affect how you perceive.

a reply to: JDmOKI

Because most of the time it IS because of religious beliefs. She just wants to know before she can continue to discuss.

originally posted by: Poofmander
I would rather have the individual perhaps try therapy before jumping into physical unecessary modification of their body.

EVERY person who gets gender reassignment surgery has likely been through YEARS of therapy. It's not something one "jumps into"...

I don't think a healthy option is to make ones body fit a mold that is truly near impossible to fill.

The professionals in the field disagree with you.

I do not respect the idea that I must be tolerant of the idea that it is a solution to reassign your gender as scientifically you were created a certain way.

You don't have to be tolerant of it. You CLEARLY are not, and you haven't been arrested for it. So, carry on with the intolerance.

I feel that her actions and the actions of people changing their gender fall into the same category where these options are available and expensive and doable, but will it solve the issue at hand?

I would suggest talking to the thousands of post-op people for the answer to that question.

My thoughts lead me to the conclusion that masquerading as something you are not will always be the poorer of the two choices...

Agreed. Transgender people DO have the choice to masquerade as something they are not (that is, to live their lives pretending to be the gender they were assigned at birth, even though they KNOW that is not really who they are) OR they can accept themselves as they are (transgender) and take the steps necessary to live an authentic life.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: JDmOKI

Because most of the time it IS because of religious beliefs. She just wants to know before she can continue to discuss.

Thank you.

You are correct.

a reply to: JDmOKI

Of course our science is always evolving as we learn more and more. What we can do NOW is go by what we know NOW, as we do with all facets of science.

In the area of gender dysphoria, the accepted treatment that has the most success is changing the body to match the brain. That is what the vast majority of experts in the mental/physical/endocrinology health fields (who have done a lot more research into this than any of us) agree on.

I have always felt as if i am a woman but i was born a man. Also I've been feeling that myself being born white or caucasian does not represent how i feel. I have made the decision that i would like to transition from a white man to a black woman.

Michael Jackson went from a black man to a white woman so why not? Go for it live your dreams!

originally posted by: Poofmander
Currently being a single white male in his 20s in the US I have many facets to my outlook on life, but I assure you I am an accepting person. I work with troubled highschool youths and I love my work.

After reading this post twice, I am compelled to comment although it is making me late for work!

Please, please, please! If you work with troubled kids, I implore you to become better educated concerning the issues of transgender and gender non-confirming youth and the body of scientific and medical research regarding gender dysphoria. I can see by your attitudes and comments you lack critical understanding of these issues and if you do encounter teens that are indeed transgender, your attitudes and opinions toward them regardless of how well disguised will less than beneficial.

I urge you to check out an organization I support where you may find resources and peers in education to better understanding the issues and these kids, their needs and the types of care and support they require. Visit
Gender Spectrum and/or download the PDF, Schools In Transition: A Guide for Supporting Transgender Students in K-12 Schools.

In my opinion gender reassignment surgery falls into this category of plastic surgery. I know that there are some other social issues at hand with gay lesbian and transgender rights, but I don't think a healthy option is to make ones body fit a mold that is truly near impossible to fill.

Again, your understanding in this area falls short and lumping the needs of trans youth into those of gay and lesbian communities does them a disservice. Please recognize your own lack of understanding of the issues and needs of trans youth and do some additional research. Professional resources and support are available for dealing with these kids and I suggest your education and experience inadequate for doing so. This is nothing to fool around with and by your comments here, it is obvious this area exceeds your qualifications for involvement so please do some homework.

I do not respect the idea that I must be tolerant of the idea that it is a solution to reassign your gender as scientifically you were created a certain way.

I would suggest should you encounter a transgender child you immediately recuse yourself from their counsel because you obviously lack the information and understanding to support them. I understand your good intentions and desires but honestly, these kids are probably the most vulnerable you will come across with the highest rates of suicide and self harm of any group and if you don't know what you are doing or the correct approach, your good intentions may have just the opposite effect.

Try this on for size...(hypothetical)

I have always felt as if i am a woman but i was born a man. Also I've been feeling that myself being born white or caucasian does not represent how i feel. I have made the decision that i would like to transition from a white man to a black woman.

For this hypothetical to be an actual situation is not far fetched as we have just recently dealt with Rachel Dolezal masquerading as a black woman leading a black organization

You are conflating being transgender or GNC with something else or making apple to orange comparisons and if you indeed work with troubled high school youth, your lack of better understanding or detail could have negative consequence.

I wish to hear others' opinions and discuss, as i believe I may be slightly on the fringe of this topic, but i believe my argument is sound. As for my lack of anything data related or sourced, these are my opinions and i hope i have stated them clearly and i truly do not want to offend anyone ever only open dialogue to help our community progress.

Your argument may be sound but it is based on an incomplete understanding of the situation. I am not at all offended by your comments but am somewhat alarmed by them because being in a position where you may encounter and counsel transgender youth, your attitudes and opinions as well as your level of professional education on the scope of this problem are less than satisfactory.

I appreciate your concerns and you do make a few valid points about youth, body image and culture but to dismiss the specificity of transgender issues or include them under other circumstances finds me hoping you do some of your own research to have a better grasp on these things.

I will be out the remainder of the day and unable to respond but as someone that was a transgender child and now mature adult in my sixties that acts as advocate and educator on the needs and concerns of trans youth, I'm hoping my own experience and knowledge in this area will cause you to take heed and become better informed.

Thanks for your consideration.

a reply to: Poofmander

I suppose it all depends upon the individual. I know that sounds trite but hear me out.

Gender is biologically fundamental. At the end of the day, no matter what they do, no matter how many surgeries they have, or how many hormones they take, they must accept the fact that it is just an illusion, a false front and not their genuine self. For most of them (although not all) they will, in the end have two x chromosomes or an x and a y, female or male, regardless of how much they are willing to go through to change the façade. Acceptance may be hard to come by for many reasons, but particularly because we keep telling people that gender is just a social construct and doesn't have anything to do with biology. Eventually, they will run smack into that biological inevitability, probably over and over again and that internal conflict may cause problems if they have not resolved it.

On the other hand, gender is socially fundamental. Those social interactions that revolve around it are so implicit and broad that most of us can't even see that forest for the proverbial trees so-to-speak. For someone who genuinely feels trapped in the wrong body every social interaction would reinforce the feeling that something is not right. That would be highly stressful, and I could see why someone would choose to alter their appearance in order to facilitate social interaction that makes more sense to them.

If they've come to grips with those biological truths then, by all means, they should do what works for them.

Y'know, i'm kinda on the fence on this issue. I can understand how someone could feel like, say, a Woman trapped in a man's body, or vice versa. I can understand why they would want to change the exterior to match what they feel the interior is.

What I can't wrap my mind around is this 'Otherkin' ridiculousness. 'I feel like a Cat', or 'I feel like a Dog'. That, to me, is taking it a bit too far.

I haven't looked into this issue scientifically as of yet. Anyone care to post some scientific articles?

originally posted by: redhorse
a reply to: Poofmander

I suppose it all depends upon the individual. I know that sounds trite but hear me out.

Gender is biologically fundamental. At the end of the day, no matter what they do, no matter how many surgeries they have, or how many hormones they take, they must accept the fact that it is just an illusion, a false front and not their genuine self. For most of them (although not all) they will, in the end have two x chromosomes or an x and a y, female or male, regardless of how much they are willing to go through to change the façade. Acceptance may be hard to come by for many reasons, but particularly because we keep telling people that gender is just a social construct and doesn't have anything to do with biology. Eventually, they will run smack into that biological inevitability, probably over and over again and that internal conflict may cause problems if they have not resolved it.

On the other hand, gender is socially fundamental. Those social interactions that revolve around it are so implicit and broad that most of us can't even see that forest for the proverbial trees so-to-speak. For someone who genuinely feels trapped in the wrong body every social interaction would reinforce the feeling that something is not right. That would be highly stressful, and I could see why someone would choose to alter their appearance in order to facilitate social interaction that makes more sense to them.

If they've come to grips with those biological truths then, by all means, they should do what works for them.

This has been explained to you before but you deny the science behind it. Transgenders DO NOT CLAIM TO B E BIOLOGICAL WOMEN O R MEN AFTER SEX RE ASSIGNMENT. (caps for emphasis and easy reading)

Genders MENTAL. SEX is what your "genitals" are. Stop confusing the issue. Science backs up this data. Its like denying gravity tries to pull things toward the center of the earth

a reply to: Poofmander

How many adult or young adult Trans people have you met and talked to personally???

Because I know two. One is my wife's cousin and the other a friend she grew up with. Both were born Female and now are male. I've met and talked to them both and neither of them would I consider female in any way at all. They weren't even what I would call effeminate men. They looked, talked, acted, etc. like men. Same interests, same habits, same mannerisms, both had a wife or girlfriend who they were committed to for a number of years.

Trying to say that they took the easier path or choice in becoming a man or that they were hiding behind some more truthful Female and acting male just wouldn't be correct. They were born with Female anatomy and might of developed more along those lines without hormones possibly. But beyond that there was nothing remotely female about them.

I realize you have it set in your mind differently but you should consider the possibility that you're mistaken. Perhaps not always as I'm sure there are some people who may just be confused. But not all of them are and you shouldn't dismiss the very real fact that many of them are very much, for whatever reason, born with a gender which is opposite of who they are and should be.

I can't explain it any more than you can as I also feel like what I was born as. But after meeting a couple of trans people I simply cannot make myself believe that they are faking it or are just confused about who they are. If nothing else, it is their life and not mine. So who am I or anyone else to tell them that they are wrong about themselves. I know I wouldn't like the same done to me if the tables were reversed.

originally posted by: redhorse
Gender is biologically fundamental.

I am afraid you incorrect.

At the end of the day, no matter what they do, no matter how many surgeries they have, or how many hormones they take, they must accept the fact that it is just an illusion, a false front and not their genuine self.

For most of them (although not all) they will, in the end have two x chromosomes or an x and a y, female or male, regardless of how much they are willing to go through to change the façade.

Wow! You have absolutely no understanding of trans people at all. People go through transition for the express purpose of escaping the facade of living as a gender that doesn't represent their true and authentic self and is all about being "genuine". And what the heck do chromosomes have to do with anything since they can only be identified with expensive medical testing and are irrelevant to a person's day-to-day life? People that don't have XX or XY chromosome combinations have a Disorder of Sex Development (DSD) which generally results in an intersex condition to some degree and is usually not generally associated with being transgender or transsexual. You may want to visit the Intersex Society of North America to learn more.

Acceptance may be hard to come by for many reasons, but particularly because we keep telling people that gender is just a social construct and doesn't have anything to do with biology. Eventually, they will run smack into that biological inevitability, probably over and over again and that internal conflict may cause problems if they have not resolved it.

... If they've come to grips with those biological truths then, by all means, they should do what works for them

Huh? Unless you are a specialist in human biology, you may want to think twice about spreading your "biological truths". The weight of current scientific evidence suggests being trans is biologically based.

Taking the entire breadth of the findings uncovered by research, it appears that there is more than sufficient evidence that transgender persons either have a serious hormonal-based birth defect, have been exposed to exogenous chemicals which have impacted their gender development in the womb, have a genetic karyotype which differs from the general population, or via some other process have a brain structure which is different than would be indicated by their chromosomes. While no single study presents proof beyond any shadow of a doubt or with metaphysical certainty, taken together they do present a preponderance of evidence such that one can say with confidence that transgender individuals have a congenital gene-based difference from cissexual individuals.

BU researchers find biological basis for transgender identity

Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain?

Transgender: Evidence on the biological nature of gender identity

On the other hand, gender is socially fundamental. Those social interactions that revolve around it are so implicit and broad that most of us can't even see that forest for the proverbial trees so-to-speak. For someone who genuinely feels trapped in the wrong body every social interaction would reinforce the feeling that something is not right. That would be highly stressful, and I could see why someone would choose to alter their appearance in order to facilitate social interaction that makes more sense to them.

I tend to agree with most of this statement with the exception that being transgender is something someone chooses. It is natural part of normal human diversity and has existed as long as humans have been around. Some trans people do make a choice whether or not to transition, for others it is a matter of life or death and not a choice.

originally posted by: jjsr420
What I can't wrap my mind around is this 'Otherkin' ridiculousness. 'I feel like a Cat', or 'I feel like a Dog'. That, to me, is taking it a bit too far.

This has nothing to do with being transgender. If you want to look into that on your own, be my guest.

I haven't looked into this issue scientifically as of yet. Anyone care to post some scientific articles?

Most of the hard scientific and medical literature is behind a paywall. This website has a fair collection of things you might be interested in? Transsexual, Transgender and Intersex Gender Identity

Wikipedia - Gender Dysphoria

Why don't you start with the internationally accepted guide book? Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender Nonconforming People