Atenism-Judaism-Freemasonry

It might be interesting to discuss the evidence for, and implications thereof, of continuity of tradition from Atenism into Judaism and from there into Free-Masonry, i don't feel there's any case i need to make myself as far as the historical evidence for the influence of Atenism on Judaism goes and will simply provide the links for this, though of course that can be up for discussion, i'd prefer to focus on the greater implications here.

The Religious Reforms of Akhenaten

Atenism and early Judaism

So Atenism, what was it, what was it not, the paper that i linked to questions whether it was even a religion, as nobody seemed to believe in it and the whole thing fell apart after the death of Akhenaten, it was Anti-religious in that it progressively sought to end all prior religious tradition and practise, the Aten itself served as the focal Symbol, the solar disk whose brilliance could not be looked on directly, Akhenaten himself was projected as the only Divine intermediary who should be supplicated, thus the absolute centralization of religious belief projected onto his person.

There was no Theology created to explain this sudden shift in emphasis, only the emphasis on the abstract symbol and glorious leader who in iconography appeared to have both Male and Female characteristics, in effect this was simply asserting totalitarian control over the minds of one's subjects and leaving them with no alternative tradition, not surprisingly people were glad to see the back of him when he died.

It is an unknown as to whether this was entirely the whim of Akhenaten or whether he was taking advise from poisonous source, the latter though seems the more likely when the evidence is considered that after his death his close circle of advisors seem to have left Egypt and recommenced their mind games upon the Semitic tribes of the Sinai region, regaining a basis for power.the names of Akhenatens close circle are found in the Moses narrative, it is even suggested that he was Akhenatens vizier Ramose.

It was certainly the case that Moses adopted the modus operandi of the Atenists, he created the Divine abstraction, I am what i am, so whatever, and he also made himself the only inter-mediary between the people and that Divine abstract, began to persecute all traditional belief and practise and introduced legalistic Monotheism, which bound the people by Law to his own particular interpretation.

It is now considered that there was no mass exodus from Egypt, no conquest of Canaan, rather it seems the case that an ideology had taken hold among the lower classes in Canaanite society, that internal subversion and rebellion took place and the upper levels of the Cities totally destroyed, the Temple complexes and homes of the ruling classes, while the lower levels remained untouched, that through the creation of resentments and internal division the old order had been overthrown and the legalistic Monotheism of the Hebrews introduced.

After the death of Moses there is the necessary transference of the role of Divine inter-mediary to the entire Levitical scribal-Priest class, and by greater extension to the entire tribal body of Israel such that they become the means through which the Divine is to be interpreted, and from there begins the pracitse of subverting and denouncing all neighbouring religions and cultures, while reinforcing the abolition of religious practise within their own tradition, in order to provide substitution religious festivals and rituals are largely based upon the various trials and tribulations of the people themselves, this also reinforcing their assumed Holiness and sense of purpose.

Judaism itself showed a remarkable capacity to absorb the belief of neighbouring cultures and assimilate into their own historical narrative, noteworthy in this regard adapting the entire Apocalyptic tradition of the Zoroastrians such that it largely became about the destruction and re-establishment of their own Temple Cult...not the world.

With regards to such influence on Free-Masonry, given the Jewish disdain for the religious practise of others this made them very useful allies to the Protestants when it came to creating resentment within Catholic society, they could certainly be relied upon to point out the shortcomings of others when it came to Legalistic Monotheism and the Protestants wanted to go by the manual which had become widely available, so the Jews held the key to the Protestant mindset, and so it had to be out with the old and in with the even older.

Their dealings with early influential Free-Masons were different it would seem, as Protestants of power and influence they also wanted the keys to the Kingdom as it were, the means to control society and create one's own power base, thus they adopted for themselves the amusingly abstract G, created any number of pseudo-religious parody rituals and absurdist histories, practising the subversion of society toward their own best interests, creating the privileged Brotherhood.

It's an attitude towards religion and others which became so popular in America, the American constitution is Legalistic Humanism, offering everyone the chance to become the Divine inter-mediary behind that abstraction, Mormonism, Scientology, Church of Satan, among the more notorious examples of the produce of this attitude, but generally it's about undermining the faith of others and creating your own religion with oneself centre stage, running whatever scam you see fit, taking this onto the global and political stage then Hitler, Stalin, Mao et al were notorious practitioners, of Atenism.

So anyway those are my general thoughts on these issues and all up for discussion...

a reply to: Kantzveldt
As always, good stuff Kantz. I've often thought Adam, Eve, Abraham, etc. were all creations of Moses and his motley crew. Gotta have roots if you're going to have a new/old/eclectic religion.

a reply to: Klassified

Primarily it was subversion of the local and Mesopotamian traditions, it's hard to second guess their motives but the tradition of the seven sages which were seen as instrumental in Mesopotamia in founding civilization and religious institutions were posited as the evil root cause, in effect then the Anti-Religious programme was reactionary against that initiative, replacing that influence entirely with their own, in a sense the basis for humanism, that this is a local planet for local people.

a reply to: Kantzveldt
A very interesting angle that I hadn't thought of before. Hebrews, the original humanists. lol. Definitely gives me something to think about.

a reply to: Klassified

Thery're certainly the ones behind most of todays political activism with regards to human rights and political correctness, Marx in effect a great exponent of this deep rooted position, though they themselves seemingly indoctrinated by Egyptian Atenists, whose revolutionary developments in art are often loosely described as humanist

The one thing that blows their historic position right out of the water is benevolent extra-terrestrial intervention in the past, no fall, no original sin, no justification for the reactionary position, to counter such possibilities you have the likes of Sitchin and the mythos of the evil Annunnaki that enslaved, the reptillian propoganda, anything but the truth.

I'll tell you what i always find amusing, you watch any illuminati/NWO exposed type video and it always comes down to The Fall/Nephilim/Anunnaki and that the cause of all the problems in the world today are the descendants of such, those hybrid reprobates of the original sin, and then the question turns to well who are those people today, and what they never get is that it's actually themselves, the Indo-European numpty making the video, and if they want to really do something about it they should accept their own genocide...according to the biblical perspective.

a reply to: Kantzveldt
You bring to my mind, in your first paragraph, a question I've asked myself more than once. How many of today's Jewish priests/rabbis/sages are aware of their true history? Surely a verbal history has been passed down for generations to those meant to know such things.

2nd and 3rd. Another interesting perspective I hadn't considered from that particular angle.

a reply to: Klassified

The answer i expect is very few, but you don't actually need many aware of the underlying principles if you have an operative system based upon them, if you have people promoting your legislative monotheism which serves your cause in establishing the position of divine-intermediary, and people also don't require much encouragement to destroy the religious culture and traditions of others, the worst of human nature can always be relied upon, that's the thing with humanism.

a reply to: Kantzveldt
Ain't it the truth.

*sorry*

a reply to: Kantzveldt

You astound me with your insight, dear Kantzveldt. Most historian colleagues of mine dismiss the Aten cult as a minor blemish in Egyptian history of no consequence. I perceive this may be by design.

It carries with it the old conspiratorial notion of men wishing to be kings and rulers, and more than anything else, worshiping power itself, worshiping themselves. It follows to modern day with the elite cults wishing to create a plutarchy across the globe, a New World Order (though I confess my belief in this has been heavily influenced by a single close friend). My very username contains the secret.

You have outlined rather neatly how the principle of divine kings travels to different cultures as it collapses in one, which suggests a deeper conspiracy. Judaism holds an interesting connection. It exemplifies the notion of a sacred individual as opposed to the divine omniscience. It spread across nations and tribes and remains to this day, changing with the era. It is no secret that the Hebrews were heavily influenced by the Babylonian captivity (adopting the Flood and Garden narrative of the Enuma Elish, Gilgamesh, et cetera) in addition to Egyptian and other local cultures.

Many historians suspect that Moses is a composite character, and I believe his birth story at least is copied from Sargon of Akkad. This would presumably be to establish a divine/miraculous right of rulership. Adding the instituted Flood narrative and incorporating it into the Power-cult would have fabricated a sense of legitimacy for the lower classes. He may well have been a deified vizier Ra-moses; have you come across the theory that Tolkien's Grima Wormtongue was based on him?

If Moses is indeed a deified leader, or perhaps a non-existent patriarchal ancestor, then it may explain why he was depicted with horns. Michelangelo did so deliberately; it may be to portray him as a trickster:



The same friend mentioned above taught me about the history of the trickster god, and had many collected images of such, originating in the ancient god Pan. He said (if memory serves) this descends further from the Indian deity Pushan, who rode a goat-chariot and such, and so carries a slight resemblance to Thor in several ways. He was convinced that the "original gods" were representations of the psyche, aspects of personality in symbolic form. The trickster god of course being the selfish, cunning, immoral nature of man, using deception for personal gain. You can see the likeness to Moses for yourself.



And as a further aside, I find it intriguing how Freemasonry adopted the notion from Judaism and thenceforth had a rocky relationship therein. Many lodges would not accept Jews, some to this day. Conversely, many do. From my studies into Kabbalistic notions and Judaism in general, the teachings are against the notion of an afterlife, and thus antithetical to the Freemasons on this very site claiming that one must believe in an afterlife to join. Curious. But I suppose if one does not subscribe to an idea of Heaven/Hell, there is greater incentive to become a God as per the Aten, no..?

a reply to: SargonThrall
I should also like to add something in retrospect. Tacitus is was who made the supposition that Jews sacrifice rams and bulls specifically in derision of the Egyptian and Levant cults who worshiped these animals. It was the institutionalization of the very notion of supplanting foreign religions, and turning the destruction into ritual.

He also has a most curious passage in Histories book 5:

44 Few interpreted these omens as fearful; the majority firmly believed that their ancient priestly writings contained the prophecy that this was the very time when the East should grow strong and that men starting from Judea should possess the world.45 This mysterious prophecy had in reality pointed to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, as is the way of human ambition, interpreted these great destinies in their own favour, and could not be turned to the truth even by adversity.

It seems there is a historical evidence for the slaves-become-kings conspiracy. Possess the world through the Aten!

a reply to: SargonThrall

It would have been the case that if you had an Egyptian vizier trying to assume leadership of Semitic tribal groups it would have been useful to create a mythos were in fact it turns out he was Hebrew all along yet raised Egyptian, the fact that he was a vizier is demonstrated by his having the staff of office which only viziers held, the one he could supposedly cast down and it transformed into a snake.

So yes using the plot device from the Sargon mythos to elaborate on supposed mysterious origins of his person and at the same time reinforcing the premise that he was destined for greatness and leadership would have been a useful tradition to draw upon. I'm not as familiar with Egyptian vizier traditions as the Mesopotamian, were there it was the case that every major Deity had a vizier that was the intermediary between the Deity and humanity, for the Semites also the notion of a vizier providing the only direct link to a Deity wouldn't have been so problematic.

There are other parallels with regards to the Sargon mythos with regards to the installation of Joseph within the Royal Court through dream interpretation of the cupbearer and the baker, were in the dream of Sargon he had the role of cupbearer to the Goddess Kusu of the wine house, Kusu also being a Goddess of grain and ovens, baking bread, which demonstrates if nothing else that they were drawing upon the text for inspiration in composing the Genesis account.

I don't necessarily think that it is the case of establishing power simply for it's own sake, that they also have a clear idea of what they are against and will establish the power base to suppress, clearly in the seizure of Canaan this involved the extermination of the supposed descendants of the Nephilim, the eradication of all traces of their culture, purification, over turning the teachings of the seven sages tradition, it is astonishing that they could have persuaded Akhenaten to embark upon the course that he did when really his position owed everything to the ancient traditions which they were against, that really would have required a Wormtongue.

a reply to: Kantzveldt
Ah, according to certain texts, Sargon had been appointed cup-bearer to king Ur-Zababa, who desired Sargon killed so as to prevent his dream of the king's death from coming true. As an even more interesting connection to our discussion, the goddess Inanna stopped Sargon at the gates of death by telling him that he was polluted with blood. An interesting parallel to the Passover tradition of blood on the door protecting the chosen of God.

As I understand it there was a single vizier (tjati) who was appointed by the Pharaoh. There was technically more power in this position, aside from the fact that Pharaoh could overrule any decision. A vizier oversaw the treasury, military, domestic affairs, agriculture, trade records, ritual affairs, upholding the law, palace security... there is too much room for corruption. A Pharaoh was more like a figurehead compared to the effective vizier, who actually administered the country.
Installation of the Vizier Rekhmere

In a sense he also played intermediary for a god, as Pharaoh was a living god.

Well, I suppose this last point is where our opinions diverge. I view history as the struggle for power, and every event as a symptom therein. Religion is used to obtain power, rather than power being used to enforce religion. If your theory is correct then the Vizier failed to usurp power (presumably assuming he would succeed Akhenaten), and decided to move along to whichever disaffected group would accept him. The Hebrews needed a leader, vizier needed worshipers, everything worked out neatly. The loyal Levites were used to craft a rigid control structure that suited his demands.

Oh and finally, one friend claims that staff-to-snake trick was merely an unconscious snake. Remember in Genesis it explicitly states that the Egyptians were able to replicate the trick.

a reply to: SargonThrall

Yes there's also connection to the river of blood there, it was Ezina mentioned in the text by the way that i referred to as Kusu, it's an alternative name Ezina-Kusu, you're also right of course about the vizier dealing with the living God on the daily basis, given the underlying tendency in Atenism toward the unknowable Universal abstraction it was probably a relief to cut out the middle man as it were, a son of such a concept was hardly the purest logic, simply a relic of the traditions they were looking to do away with.

Of course also the reliance upon Kingly favour to enforce the reforms did also mean that once he died the succeeding regime and it's supporters may not be favourable to one's cause, as was the case, and one would be forced to flee the country, thus the reluctence of the early Hebrews to appoint a King, they were a potential liability.

It is largely about maintaining power and control, the Atenists felt threatened by the growing power of the cult of Amun, which the Romans identified as Jupiter-Amun, the very spiritual principle of power and control, thus the suppression of spiritual influence and those who taught such.

a reply to: Kantzveldt
I have been musing this point and came upon this old post: Akhenaten and Moses. Rather short but interesting. It would appear to agree that the middle man was an institution to keep power (spirituality) out of the hands of commoners.

It is intriguing, perhaps the Hebrews merely instated a king once his position had conflated with that of the vizier, or perhaps he was selected from among the priesthood to circumvent the redundancy?

I have greatly enjoyed our discussion. Please feel free to contact if you should desire consultation in the future and I shall assist in any way I can!

a reply to: SargonThrall

Yes thanks for your input here, what can be demonstrated is that, importantly, the development of Atenism was not the whim of an eccentric ruler, that there was a very dedicated core of followers that continued the tradition regardless of his demise.

The critical issue is what caused such a radical rethink even to the extent that the cult of Osiris was strongly opposed and belief in the afterlife, and i think that the answer lies in the developments through solar observation within the cult of Amun-Re, that it was all about those angles of the Aten, study of the mechanics of the sun had given rise to the understanding that the Earth was a sphere, and/or heliocentricity.



The traditional afterlife belief system held that there was a passage under the flat Earth through which the sun traveled each night to be reborn, once the Greeks started openly questioning traditional cosmology that did lead to collapse of ancient religious belief and re-evaluation across the Hellenistic world, the Egyptians may have got there sooner.



I looked here at Egyptian tradition of offerings to the various angles of the suns trajectory and their sundials, they know that ultimate twilight lay 18 degrees below the horizon, and also here that the cosmology of the Book of Ezekiel is heliocentric, that secret tradition would be enough to cause a radical rethink.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Hey Kantzveldt, have missed you!(I haven't been present on such forums) (still hope to posses one or more of your drawings someday, I myself a few months ago started drawing a bit so hopefully someday we can make some trades).

From the little I have just for the first time heard of and gathered on 'Atenism' it appears to be 'sun worship' of sorts? After quite the long winter for myself personally I have somewhat turned to sun worship as well the past few weeks...

I wonder if it is no coincidence that perhaps humans originally developed nearer the equator; what were the winters like in Egypt then? As mentioned sun worship was prevalent prior, but the novelty of atenism and its promotor, was that it attempted to belittle all the other worships to focus on the sun? What were people worshipping prior, gods for everything; like the God of rivers, the God of beads, the God of rain, the God of lightening, the God of triangles, the God of pottery? Away from monotheism, is it more worshipping of humans, like celebrities, royal family; is this the general continual historical struggle, those who genuinely want to live simply and piously and respect a total nature, and those who worship humans, and cats, and ornate clothing and jewelry and 'the flesh'?

If they were worshipping like, the God of rabbits, and the God of carrots etc. could it be Akhenaten merely attempted to reason; there are no rabbits and no carrots without the sun; which may be true, but difficult logic... but well, he would have said, the sun is the king of our lives, the highest power we have access too and are aware of, the source of our lives, the provider of light; those he was arguing against could have said, there are still important 'matters' besides the sun itself, which are obviously required for everything we are aware of; I am hardly hesitant to doubt he intuited that like modern science theory might posit something like that the material of the solar system may have started as ~"one" conglomorate of material, and then spun out and/or coalesced into its forms; but yeah regardless, people could have said, yes perhaps rabbits and beads and humans would not be possible without the sun; but pottery, and art, and fashion, and story telling, and tool making, and geometry, are still their own things, own aspects of reality, the sun is its thing, and they are their thing, and they have a relation but they are different, so why should'nt one ....

but yes, now I realize, we probably are not talking about such general things as worshipping things as one might worship god (as people might worship things today like the god of television, the gods of fast food etc.) but perhaps, the gods people worshipped in egypt, were similar idea of like greek and roman gods, as I did see mentioned somewhere in a link or this thread, that it was thought the gods that might have been worshipped were gods reflecting the nature of the human psyche; or human characteristics, archtypes, like goddess of beauty, god of strength, fertility, speed, drunkeness etc.

Pretty much taking ideals or extremes of human characteristics, and imagining like the platonic forms of such characteristics, personified in a beingness;

these likely go so far back into human history, the concepts of importance of speed, and strength, and fertility, there is really no knowing or telling what people originally intended these concepts to be or mean to them; the game of telephone, lost in translation, think of fairy tales and stories adults tell children, campfire fables, colloquialalities, proverbials; from one generation to the next;

Think of how easy it would be to convince the generation just born now, that all of our superhero comic books are real god entities, heck, that the films are documenteries! Well... now they can go on the internet and find the truth, well... couldnt do that a few thousand years ago;

So I mean, it could have been, that the people of egypt, (and well, I read Akhenaten was leader for like 17 years, which is pretty long time, compared to some modern presidancy, and it would be unfair of me to try to think to consider comparing and measuring novelty change of the last 8 contemporary years (technology, knowledge) to any 17 year span of egypts long history; how many 17 year spans did similarly interesting things happen, and the common folk just kept doing their thing as they do; but I suppose this moment is particularly interesting because this king reigned so close to the uprising of moses and such, which is part of your point of this thread I suppose? ...

anyway, so I mean... could have been the people of egypt were showing signs similar to our modern times, potential obsessions with false idols, obsessed with 'reality' shows and, and the Akhenaten perhaps desired to attempt to instill some conservative values...

Or as the theory suggests in your first link, he had purely selfish motives.

I personally have tremendous experiences with the sun; even sitting outside for 5 -10 minutes, facing the sun, and just 'zoning out' unfocus my eyes, deep breathing and I wont say meditate, but that might be what it is, because when I think of meditate or at least when I used to try, well, I never used to try in the sun so that is a difference, used to try in a dark room, and still had calming experiences (not astral projection and stuff, but some interesting pineal feelings, and some intense zoning out, lack of imagination and thought), but in the sun, it just feels good to be in the sun, lol, that much is obvious by nothing the popularity of beaches and tanning; so yeah, it does give me a boost of energy (I know too vitamin d is it) and it gives me ideas, but that might just be giving myself a break to have clear mind and think, and it kind of massages your head, it kind of just takes over, because its more powerful then me, like allign my forehead with the sun, and you can feel how powerful it is, and yeah...

So yeah, all and all, I think evoking the sun, is a way to remind people of reality, the truth, ironically many people go about their daily lives 'in the clouds' head in the sand, thinking about petty matters and quarrels and desires, and to evoke the sun is to say.... massive fireball continouslly ejecting uncountable quantity of light that is responsible for everything we know, can do and are... be thankful, relax a bit, existing as human on earth is mysterious and interesting and wonderful, and there are powerful things beyond our control that are responsible for our control, sit in the sun for a bit, and enjoy it, appreciate it, have a relationship with it, let it make you feel good, feel its warmth, admire and respect that.

So then, I mean, he can say anything, like, the sun is responsible for everything, therefore it is responsible for my potentials, therefore it is responsible for the potential for you to make your clothes and beads and pottery, and stories, and geomtry and pyramids, all the ideas and thoughts you have are due to the suns existence, and light coming from the sun and entering you and that which you utilize, and therefore it is also responsible for me, Akhenaten's thoughts, which led me to power, and led me to make these rules, and led me to tell you that it told me to tell you that it is the best, and because it told me this and not any of you, it thinks I am the best, and should be your leader.

a reply to: Kantzveldt


Is much known about the birth of the Hebrews? where or who they came from? Oh, well this is interesting, I suppose we talk and mean two things when talking about the birth of human; because there is the 'common ancestor african', but then the 'creator of civilization middle eastern'?

And so Hebrews are thought to be tribal community somewhere in the middle? In your knowledge of mesopotamia and/or sumeria and those others, where the Hebrews fit in?

a reply to: ImaFungi

I think you have to take into account the Egyptian obsession with the journey of the Sun through the underworld and all the crazy imaginings that they held to transpire along the way, if they realized that in fact the Sun didn't journey under the Earth at all that would have been a major wake up call leading to turning aside from all things that couldn't be literally true, a calling into question the personification of Deities and a re-focus on the abstract principles of truth, light, and reason, with the Aten disk as primary symbol, a revelation that literally involved understanding the angles of the Sun and what their study implied.

There was nothing new in an emphasis on Atum-Khepri-Neferatum-Re-Aten, indeed they could probably have argued that they were right all along to give the Sun such prominence in Egyptian religion, and of couse as you suggest the qualities of the Sun in the abstract can be seen as mirrored in the human psyche, you're also right that it can become the case were (secret) knowledge is the basis for power, even long after the secret is commonly known.

Akhenaten was certainly no conservative, indeed in artistic representation he even insisted on fusion of gender, it wasn't just Gods he had it in for but Goddesses too, both were fused into representations of the Royal person and equal status was applied to Nefertiti in terms of representation, an essential message of Oneness.



The danger in Atenism as you picked up on is that it can lead to emphasis on the singular fixation, totalitarian viewpoints, that it struggles with the wildly contradictory and the paradoxical, but anyway things are what they are i guess.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: ImaFungi

I think you have to take into account the Egyptian obsession with the journey of the Sun through the underworld and all the crazy imaginings that they held to transpire along the way, if they realized that in fact the Sun didn't journey under the Earth at all that would have been a major wake up call leading to turning aside from all things that couldn't be literally true, a calling into question the personification of Deities and a re-focus on the abstract principles of truth, light, and reason, with the Aten disk as primary symbol, a revelation that literally involved understanding the angles of the Sun and what their study implied.

Ok, I see; but was it in that first link I read or did you write, that after 17 years of ruling, when he died, things sort of returned to as they were before him?

Akhenaten was certainly no conservative, indeed in artistic representation he even insisted on fusion of gender, it wasn't just Gods he had it in for but Goddesses too, both were fused into representations of the Royal person and equal status was applied to Nefertiti in terms of representation, an essential message of Oneness.

To me that is very conservative (whatever is considered present day conservative, must have its roots in something which came before); as harmony between man and woman must have existed as long as man and woman, and likely harmony between men and women too for that matter.

The danger in Atenism as you picked up on is that it can lead to emphasis on the singular fixation, totalitarian viewpoints, that it struggles with the wildly contradictory and the paradoxical, but anyway things are what they are i guess.

Yes, I see. So is it safe for me to say, you were attempting to express the common thread between atenism-judaism-freemasonry and on top of that suggest and/or believe that thread is a bad one? Well, yes I suppose we must consider that, as you say, totalitarian viewpoints, we value personal freedom and expression and so we do not value an individual or individuals telling or forcing us what to believe, what is true, what is right and wrong etc.