A more left wing or centrist ATS anyone??

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

So you're saying only those people with liberal or centrist views have opinions that are valid? Anyone who is conservative, right wing, old fashioned, or otherwise different is extremist?

What about people who think YOUR views are extremist? Maybe people think the exact opposite of you. Does that mean everyone else must be wrong? People who AREN'T racist but perhaps believe that security of the country could be increased by Trumps ideals, or Cruz's? Those aren't extremist. They're different. Building a wall means ignoring people for eternity? Please don't be offended, but that is very close-minded and ignorant of you to say such a thing, and it's blatantly dishonest. Nobody wants to build a wall and pretend the rest of the world has vanished. A wall - even the concept of the wall - is cherished in that is one step towards controlling immigration and security. How is it that anyone who believes differently is suddenly an extremist?

I think if you look around you'll find as many left-leaning threads (or threads containing ideals generally associated with the left) as you would right. The trouble is, from your perspective, there's too many right wing threads, no matter how many there are. One is too many.

My two cents? The internet is vastly more left leaning than right. Most major media sites lean left (and the ones that don't are proclaimed to be dishonest). Most major internet forums and blogs lean left (Reddit, for example). You can't even read car articles on Jalopnik or tech articles on Gizmodo without the authors injecting politics into it.

I don't think you're dishonest, but I do feel it is dishonest to say that ATS has gone right wing.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: ketsuko

To be clear by right wing i am talking about the extreme the people who troll thread with "I HATE MUSLIMS/JEWS/IMMIGRANTS" written between every line.

Also I am not saying the right wing view is more or less mature only that I want more mature debate (less ignorance, most accepting of others views, more open to contradicting ideas) and less of the extreme right wing behaviour

By less of the extreme right wing behavior, you mean it's ok for extreme left wing behavior? You didn't mention those guys so I'm kinda guessing that's what you mean.

Why not just talk about the issue at hand instead of the labels belonging to one side... the side you're obviously opposed to. Let's redo what you wrote so you don't contradict your own words. We don't want anything hypocritical, do we?

How about something like....

"I want more mature debate (less ignorance, most accepting of others views, more open to contradicting ideas)"

See... that's all you had to say. It sums up the very issue here. I don't think there is a problem with "sides" per say. I'm a libertarian. Ron Paul 2012!!!! I see both sides of the isle... Hell, ALL sides of the isle corrupt. Still, both sides have 'some' points that make sense and a lot of BS that doesn't on both sides. Remember... Extremism goes both ways. I've seen some pretty wacked out libs, but you don't mention that in your rant. Still.. Everyone has a voice and is welcome. If you or I don't like it, give a counter argument or simply don't bother reading the thread. You are your own worst enemy.

I do recall times where this forum has been very liberal based on the people posting. I guess it just depends on what day and month or even year you're reading through everything. Lots of times, this forum is very anti-Christian, sometimes very anti-muslim or anti-gay. Other days, it's just the opposite. Sometimes it blows my mind to be able to read even 2 pages of one single thread that has anything to do with religion in it that doesn't have 8 responses on the first page that says "God doesn't exist... Religion is for crazies... you're an idiot if you believe..." I love reading bible mysteries and religious origin stories, hell, even like reading about demons. I even like political threads. I like bashing libs when they need it. I like bashing the GOP when they need it.

This place will get to you if you let it. Once again, you are your own worst enemy. You actually choose to read what you want and you choose to get involved in what threads you want

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: nonspecific

See, to me I equate the left wing approach as unrealistic.

You cannot have equality because people are not equal and cannot be made equal. At our individual levels, you and I are very different. We have different likes and dislikes, different strengths and weaknesses, different beliefs, different hopes and aspirations. And without knowing which is us is the smarter, different levels of intellect.

Balance all that out and frankly, you and I are not the same and are not equal. You could not simply plug me into your life and expect no one to notice and difference and vice versa which is what true equality would be. You could not treat me like you and you like me. You can't even hand the two of us the same one-size-fits-all shirt and expect it to look alike on each of us.

Why? Because we are different people. Individuals.

In such a world, the best you can hope for is one framework of laws that everyone operates under, but the best way for us to each attempt to satisfy our individual hopes, needs, beliefs and dreams is to be left as free as possible to pursue them on our own at our own pace. That does mean it will be messy and that some will not go anywhere while others go everywhere. It does mean that people will reach unequal outcomes.

But forcing everyone to equal outcomes artificially elevates those who don't have the drive or ability to do more at the expense and frustration of those who can and should be allowed to exceed but are artificially held back.

It keeps the world stagnant and no one goes much of anywhere.

I was not talking about a base level of equality where everyone is the same, that is appoaching the mythical and most unliked C word.

I simply feel that the left wing view equates to a better level of living for all people regardless of ability or social standing whereas the right wing promotes a more secular survival of the fittest, the weakest will fail and be destroyed attitude that I simply cannot agree with.

Therefore I stand by my right to lean heavily towards the left as I feel my fellow man has as much right to a happy life as I or anyone else does.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I'll push this two ways...
First, maybe I've missed them, but I've never seen any posts declaring hatred towards religion or race....

Second...except for hatred against Christians and Christianity....almost exclusively by liberals.

Can we admit that those are extremist?

a reply to: ketsuko

Yes, well, the people like you talk goes around Olaru, and I know I've said it to your comments before because the position you espoused is not one that is unique but one I had seen parrotted around the Internet by a good many people who hold left wing views.

In other words, that particular idea was maybe not as unique as you thought it was.

What you just said to olaru was complete nonsense

Just saying - for anyone that's paying attention

a reply to: stolencar18

I don't think you're dishonest, but I do feel it is dishonest to say that ATS has gone right wing.

Read the responses to OtherSide's rant in this very thread and tell me their isn't a concerted right wing slant! It's an obvious trend, amigo.

I guess we really do see things from an ideological perspective more than using our common sense.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Well, my mistake, then, because reading through your OP, you seem upset that a lack of setting up a UK forum at your request is a reason to seek a different site...or because there is a large number of people from a country that has a large number of people talking about their election...or because you label opinions as far-right-wing and ask that the owners do a purge of such members who comment with that type of ideological thinking.

I hope that you can see why I (and apparently others) have taken your rant in such a way.

And to be fair, there are 320,000,000 people in the US. In the UK, there are 64,000,000. When the ratio of those populations is 5-to-1, you'd expect quite a bit more American discussion.

I do not think that was the intention of the OP to be honest.

I am pretty sure that all of the UK members here understand that this is a predominantly US site even though it was actually started about a quarter of a mile away from where I type right now in the just south west of England. Just another thing you yanks have taken over and assume is your very own

We were told that at some point there would be a UK forum where we could hide from the elections and your crazy leaders once every 4 years and this is yet to happen.

It is a pretty right wing site by our standards to be honest.

a reply to: nonspecific

good point i think what is a right wing post to some looks different to others and I think the UK/American divide has a lot to do with that.

This site to me is the extreme of right wing, now others might not see it like that but that is my interpretation it is only my opinion and it is just as fallible as anyone else's.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: ketsuko

What you just said to olaru was complete nonsense

Just saying - for anyone that's paying attention

No.. He's right.

"People like you" is used by anyone, any side with a differing opinion. I've seen it come from the left, I've seen it come from the right... I've even said it myself and I'm on neither side. It's a jab to point out a particular kind of personal belief that seldom has anything to do with one side or the other, just specifically the type of person that would say or do whatever that person said or done.

...and no... this site is just as much left as it is right.

To the OP... it doesn't matter if you make a thread just for left wingers... You wont stop opposing views. It's worked really well with atheist posting in religious threads, hasn't it?

a reply to: nonspecific

The right wing side of politics seems to be more about the self and less about the whole whereas the left seems more inclined to look at the greater picture and try to make sure there is more of an equality in people regardless of their input to the collective.

Individualism is a liberal principle. Collectivism is a totalitarian principle.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Yes it's frustrating but it's also informative (it's extremely important IMO to be in a position to correct your own misconceptions) and a chance to bust the myths floating around their echo chamber... it gets through sometimes.

a reply to: StallionDuck

Shes right :-)

And - no, shes not - what she said is nonsense

But I'll pay her a kind of compliment and say: she definitely never dog whistles

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: StallionDuck

Shes right :-)

And - no, shes not - what she said is nonsense

But I'll pay her a kind of compliment and say: she definitely never dog whistles

Oops Never can tell here. You're more observant in that aspect than I.

I think I may be missing part of the point? I'm just referring to anyone and everyone using that phrase.

a reply to: StallionDuck

To the OP... it doesn't matter if you make a thread just for left wingers... You wont stop opposing views. It's worked really well with atheist posting in religious threads, hasn't it?

I do not mind having oposing views i welcome opposing views. I just get pissed off with what i see as the extreme right wing views on this site and that non american members seem to be ignored.

a reply to: olaru12

I still disagree.

There's dozens of pro-left, or anti-right, or pro-libertarian, etc posts on here every day, and if you scroll through them you find equally as many posts ripping on the right. The difference, at least from my perspective, is that the left attacks your character and devalues your entire belief system and value as a human if you disagree with them. Oh, you want to build a wall? Human scum! You want to stop illegal immigration? RACIST! You want to decrease taxes on corporations or rich? You heartless bastard!

The attacks from the left are much more vicious, and much less based in fact, in my observations. They don't attack the idea - they discredit the person and ignore the statements they made as if they're invisible and irrelevant in the world.

Does the right do some of this too? Of course. Is any of it ok? Nope. But you don't see the right wing people trying to ban the left wingers or pretend they're some lesser human. I generally don't see people on the right saying that anyone who believes in liberal ideas is an extremist and should be silenced. I've only seen those statements come from the left.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

To be honest - and I hope this is not seen as thread drift - I'm somewhat disappointed in ATS myself; not because members hold views that aren't mine, which I see as healthy and stimulating, but because of the total lack of manners and decorum, lack of discussion skills, lack of being able to say "I was wrong, I learned something, thank you" etc. shown by a fairly large group of posters.

It seems to me that participation in a divers group as ours here requires extra-ordinary skills, and to me it's clear many don't have those skills.

Yes, I do agree that there is a lot of loud mouth right wing stuff going on in here, but I don't think that's the problem. It's the way it is presented: loud, unpolite, shamelessly ignorant and actually against civility.

I don't know how "we" (or ATS staff) can cure this: you can get an account here without any strings attached, can blurb out any total nonsense you want, get banned, re-enter and start all over again.

Well, actually I would tend to say it started with the left constant diatribe of calling anyone with opposing views racist, xenophobes, stupid, and many other nasty name calling. You can only take that tack so long before you get push back and now you are seeing people push back. People have come here for years and been attacked by the left for anything not PC. Well, many see PC as a problem now and not at all what it initially was intended to be. If the right had a PC of a type to shut down all liberal talk how long do you think that would last? I think people have sat by and watched long enough. In other words, the left had its chance to put up or shut up. The state of Europe is not going to become the state of the US, that much we will see a civil war or revolution over I would bet money on.

I think what you are seeing is the same thing you see in society. The right stood by the last 8 years, well most people anyway and waited to see how this left driven movement proceeded. Well, we see it is ok for the left as long as no one opposes their views. I don't see right wingers blocking roads to Hillary and Bernie Sanders speeches, or going in and making asses out of themselves at their private events. The right is not going to be run over and shut down like a bunch of safe place wusses. I can promise you that. So, you see a reflection of society here. I see it all over actually much more that I ever have. People are rightly ticked off. I didn't hear the same complaints when it was pretty much an all left site. It never feels good being attacked for your views on things and the left has been the name calling PC pushers for years now. No one likes to be bullied and will stand by for only so long and take it. It is all being brought out by this election and the election situation is the direct result of Americans that do not agree with nor want an EU type society here. I remember having UK people not very happy about something I said when I got involved in an UK election thread. That is just a difference in our societies and how we see things. We may all be free Westerners for the most part, but there is still a huge difference of opinion between American culture and EU culture. We feel pushed into a corner and see our country being ripped apart by globalist initiatives which are in sync with a lot of left rhetoric.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Why do extreme right wing ideas (your words...) piss you off so much?

What about extreme left wing ideas? Are those ok?

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

"I HATE MUSLIMS/JEWS/IMMIGRANTS" written between every line.

And therein lies your problem.I have not seen ANY of those on this forum even since my lurking days at the start of this site. If there is , they are pulled immediately by the mods.And I would say it would probably mean a permanent ban. And , no , ATS should NEVER raise one's beliefs above any of the others.
That is what makes AT the best at what it does. The ability to post your thoughts and beliefs (and not have to adhere to some other member's)
Move left , right ,. HADES no. I am an equal opportunity offender .
Peace.

a reply to: StallionDuck

I think I may be missing part of the point? I'm just referring to anyone and everyone using that phrase.

Which is why I wouldn't call your post nonsense

:-)

a reply to: nonspecific

The right wing side of politics seems to be more about the self and less about the whole whereas the left seems more inclined to look at the greater picture and try to make sure there is more of an equality in people regardless of their input to the collective.

Many right wingers are also collectivists it's just hard to see past the me and mine shouts... it's a different kind of collectivism though called Tribalism. Conversely many collectivists leftists who claim to be all about the greater good and equality will manipulate and take advantage mercilessly.