Agnosticism, Theism, Atheism - What does it mean?

originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: Prezbo369

And yet as both positions have have not accepted the claims for gods making them both atheist positions.

Agnostics are not necessarily atheists....even though they have not accepted the claims of theists...


A2D

If those claims are for the existence of gods, then yes they are as that's the definition of an atheist, as has been demonstrated to you over and over and over....

a reply to: Ghost147

Please elaborate...

What is the difference between a weak atheist and an agnostic atheist? Simple stating it as a fact doesn't convince me.

A2D

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Prezbo369

How is deism a form of theism?

It's the belief in a god.

originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: Prezbo369
Agnostics are not necessarily atheists....even though they have not accepted the claims of theists...

If you don't accept the claims of theists, being that there is a god, then you're an atheist, regardless if you believe we can eventually find evidence/knowledge of the existence of a god or not.

If you state "I believe that a god exists, but we cannot possibly find evidence or knowledge of one" then that would make you an agnostic theist, but still a theist.

a reply to: Prezbo369

So, you're telling me that all agnostics are actually just atheists?

A2D

originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: Prezbo369

So, you're telling me that all agnostics are actually just atheists?

A2D

In this context, yes

a reply to: Ghost147

That's the point I was trying to demonstrate to prezbo....

You can be an agnostic but NOT be atheist....even though he/she seems to think that agnosticism is actually just an atheistic position...

A2D

originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: Ghost147

Please elaborate...

What is the difference between a weak atheist and an agnostic atheist? Simple stating it as a fact doesn't convince me.

A2D

Firstly, answer me this. Do you accept the following definitions of what defines an Agnostic?

Agnostic:
noun
1.a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
2.a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.
3.a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

That's not what Ghost said, go re-read

originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: Ghost147

That's the point I was trying to demonstrate to prezbo....

You can be an agnostic but NOT be atheist....even though he/she seems to think that agnosticism is actually just an atheistic position...

True agnosticism is an atheistic position.

Agnostic theists would be a theistic position.

I believe Prezbo was referring to the center of the spectrum. a person who does not believe that a God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable. That would in fact be atheistic.

a reply to: Prezbo369

Look at his definitions.... namely

3.a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic

Which means you can be an agnostic...without being either theist or atheist....maybe you should re-read

A2D

a reply to: Prezbo369

That really depends on the person defining the Deist. If the definition is a God that interferes in human life, is still alive or did anything more than create the universe at some point than deists are not theists. They reject supernatural claims and traditions based in superstition.

Again this is a different position than theism biblical or folkstory position.

Just like an agnostic who goes to church and is unsure if God exists or not but ,.should still do the superstitious traditions just in case....is a different position form there are no gods that are possible. This is why there are classes and subclasses. It's also why it helps to debate point by point what the degrees of belief or disbelief in fact are.

originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: Prezbo369

Look at his definitions.... namely

3.a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic

Which means you can be an agnostic...without being either theist or atheist....maybe you should re-read

A2D

.....you'd then lack a belief in a god in that situation wouldn't you?

And what have you learnt over the past two threads about what an atheist is?

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Prezbo369

That really depends on the person defining the Deist. If the definition is a God that interferes in human life, is still alive or did anything more than create the universe at some point than deists are not theists. They reject supernatural claims and traditions based in superstition.

Again this is a different position than theism biblical or folkstory position.

Just like an agnostic who goes to church and is unsure if God exists or not but ,.should still do the superstitious traditions just in case....is a different position form there are no gods that are possible. This is why there are classes and subclasses. It's also why it helps to debate point by point what the degrees of belief or disbelief in fact are.

It's going off the definition of Deist:

de·ism
ˈdēizəm,ˈdāizəm/Submit
noun
belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind.

It's apparent habits and behaviour do not change the fact that it's still considered to be a god (whatever that is).

a reply to: Ghost147

Sure, I accept that definition. I'd also like to add this one...

a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

and probably....for the sake of things...since we're using it as an adjective....this one

adjective
1.
of or relating to agnostics or agnosticism.

A2D

a reply to: Ghost147

Agnosticism either has no position for or against the existence of a god what so ever.....

Correct.

...... (which technically also makes that an atheistic position, as this position has no belief in god),.....

Not necessarily, but I do understand your reasoning.

.....or directly claims that there is no possible way for us to know if there is or isn't a god .....

That's my take on things - and thus renders the 'Does God exist?' question completely irrelevant.
If we can't unequivocally prove beyond any doubt whatsoever then it is a moot point.

......(which also, technically, is an atheistic position, as this position too has no belief in god).....

I'm sorry I've got to disagree.
That maybe applicable to some Agnostics, but definitely not all.

Neither does this viewpoint have any disbelief in 'God'.

For me personally I find the term Agnostic Atheist as inappropriate or inaccurate as I would Agnostic Theist - I believe that there no evidence either way to support either a Theist or Atheist viewpoint.
In a world of labels and pigeon holing the only one left for me is simply Agnostic.

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

You either possess a belief in a god or you don't.

Just like you either collect stamps or you don't.

originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: Prezbo369

Look at his definitions.... namely

3.a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic

Which means you can be an agnostic...without being either theist or atheist....maybe you should re-read

A2D

Yes, but all that is required for you to be an atheist is to not have a belief in god. So that definition is still an atheistic one.

You're still stuck on the concept that Atheists must be make a definitive claim that god does not exist. All that is required is there to be no belief in god.

a reply to: Prezbo369

What are you going off as the definition of a theist is the question.

Usually theism is in regards to the study of man made stories and traditions about God. Which is why their is the classification of deism and theism.

Theism:
belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.

This is does not define a Deist. Which is why there is a different philosophical modifyer.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Ghost147
I'm sorry I've got to disagree.
That maybe applicable to some Agnostics, but definitely not all.

That would certainly depend on the context. I've mentioned Agnostic Theists recently that explains this :Cheers: