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In the early hours of this morning (and resuming this afternoon) Malcolm and I created the new science of Mathematical Theology, or rather Theological Mathematics. It followed on from the argument we had after the last party. He’s been talking to someone in Somerville called Nicky, and they came to the conclusion that religious faith could be expressed as a circle. Taking agnosticism as a fixed point, Christian faith and atheism went off in opposite directions to meet at the other side of the circle, proving themselves to be the same thing. So I set out to disprove this. I argued that faith was not a circle but a straight line. Since he would turn an infinite line into a circular one, I made it a finite straight line, with absence of faith at one end and maximum faith at the other. But I then made the mistake of introducing complications. Taking into account the different kinds of belief in God, I gave them separate lines, all originating from the “0” fixed point of atheism, and so becoming a cone, which made the figure three-dimensional. “Maximum faith” would then be a circle or circular plane at the other end. The length of the line was arbitrarily fixed at 200 units of faith, because Malcolm had wanted to place agnosticism half-way along as the zero point, and measuring 100 units in each direction, and I wasn’t having that. In fact I got agnosticism off the line altogether by giving it a separate band, hovering detached and equidistant from the surface of the dome. All this was putting areas into the picture. Malcolm then pointed out that human beings are not capable of standing on a point. Therefore nobody could stand exclusively on my point of “Zero faith”, but must extend a little beyond it; therefore nobody could be a pure atheist. This was really cheating, because I had originally meant the lines merely as directions. He questioned the possibility of maximum faith, so I compared it with an egg-cup being full or empty with water. He also attacked the idea that faith was quantifiable, but I retorted that the idea appeared in his circle as well and was inherent in any attempt to portray the question in geometrical terms. As he argued, he was writing to Judith in Manchester, sometimes inserting a running commentary on the discussion (“S has just admitted…”). We argued until about four o’clock in the morning.
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
So, I've come to the conclusion that many people don't fully understand atheism, even atheists themselves seem at times to be confused on how to define atheism best.
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
From what I understand, an atheist is anyone who doesn't happen to believe in any gods. no matter what their reasons or how they approach the question of whether any gods exist.
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
To be fair, it's a pretty simple concept, but for whatever reason it is widely misunderstood, by theists and atheists alike.
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
Atheism can be defined as: the lack of belief in gods, the absence of belief in gods, disbelief in gods, not believing in gods, etc.
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
The most precise definition I can bear forth, is: one who does not affirm the proposition "at least one god exists". This is NOT an affirmation made by atheists, but is an affirmation denied. It's important to remember that.
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
Now, stepping further out, I wanted to define agnosticism. So, an agnostic is anyone who doesn't claim to know for that any gods exist or not, no matter what their reasons or how they approach the question of whether any gods exist. Also a simple yet misunderstood concept.
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
Atheism and agnosticism both deal with the existence of god/s, but differ because atheism deals with the belief while agnosticism deals with the evidence or knowledge.
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
"Do you think you know for sure if any gods exist?
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
Do you think you know for sure that gods do not or even cannot exist?"
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
If you answered yes to either question, then you are NOT agnostic. If you answered no to BOTH, then you are agnostic. In this way agnosticism differs from atheism/theism. Atheism and theism both deal with absolute beliefs.
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
Atheism is the position that no gods can or do exist.
What ever happened to "atheism is a lack of belief?" like you said earlier? Now your stating that Atheism is a position and a belief, exclusively.
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
Theism is the position that at least one god exists.
True
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
Agnosticism is the position that it is possible for a god to exist, but not necessary and/or evidenced.
Among other defining traits, this is correct.
MY CONCLUSION:
You have no idea what you're talking about and your definitions flip and flop all over the place in order to justify your preconceived (and false) conclusion as to what an Atheist and what Atheism really is.
You're on the brink of understanding the term and the people, but you are stuck on a false premise.
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: DISRAELI
Precisely. "There is no reason(evidence) to think any gods exist" most closely resembles agnosticism. I think a vast majority of self proclaimed atheists are actually agnostics....but who am I to say.
A2D
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: DISRAELI
Not quite.
Atheism comes to a conclusion while agnosticism is open ended with no conclusions.
False
You've had the definition of Atheism correct this entire time, but now you've changed it from (your words) the lack of belief in gods, the absence of belief in gods, disbelief in gods, not believing in gods, etc. to now being a 'belief'.
Which is it? You've stated it's a lack of belief, and absence of belief, a disbelief, and now that it is exclusively "a belief"
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: Ghost147
....atheists BELIEVE the world operates without deity....yes?
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: Prezbo369
what's wrong with my definitions?
besides what I'm currently speaking with ghost about....also, I'd appreciate it if you contribute to the thread...if you have nothing to contribute...there are other threads that could use your negativity...
A2D
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: Prezbo369
what's wrong with my definitions?
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: Ghost147
I'm not worried about the definitions ghost....I want to know what is wrong with THIS statement.
"An atheist believes the world operates without deity."
originally posted by: Agree2Disagree
a reply to: Prezbo369
Ghost only said one thing was incorrect...everything else wasso....yeah...
100% correct!
A2D