A Hopefully Fresh Look at the Rich Man and Lazarus (no relation)

The core premise of denouncing the Christian doctrine of the eternal punishment of hell is correct.Yahoshua was certainly communicating metaphorically in allegory however it is not the precision you are alluding to which is the fallacy of trying to interpret Yahoshua’s parables with specific facts.He is proclaiming things in general unless indicated.I know that is not your intention to form new doctrines of religion however that is what you have done because trying to parse what the details of this parable can be equally as incorrect as Christian doctrine.To draw the nations of Israel, Judah or the Gentile into the allegory is a red herring.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is about ALL of humanity not specific groups of people.In the scriptures the genetic nation of Israel (which means struggles with God’s…Elohim) is always portrayed as the archetype of all of mankind.The genetic nation of Israel have not existed for almost 3,00 years and will never exist again.

Yahoshua’s purpose for the parables is what he stated in the preamble to the explanation to ONLY the disciples of the parable of the seed sown in the soil.He stated very clearly that he told parables so the blind would remain blind and the deaf would remain deaf.It was “given” ONLY to the disciples to “know” the mystery of the kingdom of their heavens(their mind).He never retracted or altered that statement.

The abundant evidence is the vast majority of Christendom believe the parable of Lazarus is about the eternal punishment of hell.It would not matter if you parsed and argued this with the expertise of Socrates,Christendom still would not understand it.That does not mean that that this great ignorance should not be denied because, it should and must because the proclaiming of the Kingdom of the creator God WILL be proclaimed.

The bottom line in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Yahoshua is stating ALL of mankind is in a relationship with the creator God and it is a dichotomy.He prefaced the parable with something that seems out of context( and is not put in context by Christian doctrine).Yahoshua speaks of committing adultery yet he is not speaking of “mans” adultery(and never is).He is speaking of mankind committing adultery with the creator God with religion(false God) and prefaced it with the religious being the prime offenders as being the abomination.

The dichotomy is Lazarus was ravaged by sores yet is being comforted.The rich man had all the comforts of riches but is being tormented by fire.Neither condition was caused or can be cured by the receiver but ALL will be Yahoshua(which means delivered by the creator God..Yahweh).Yahoshua closes the parable with man cannot have a relationship with the creator God through religion(hearing Moses).Clearly the proclamation of the Gospel has roundly gone over the world’s(this age) head.

Christianity believes in the infinite torture of the majority of humanity by the hands of their God because they are heathens(without God) and do not believe “their” doctrines of religion of another Jesus.The heathens do not believe in Christianity’s God(and rightly so) but believe in themselves and everything in between.The facts are,all are deceived, some much,much more than others.

The dilemma of Yahoshua’s parables is they offer ZERO solutions by any methodology(especially of religion).They are just as Yahoshua clearly stated..proclamations…statements of truth.If any “hear” what he is proclaiming they will be his disciple and THEN they will KNOW the truth and then the truth(not religion) will make them free.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

So how do you figure
Do you believe that the rich man is in a purgatory scenario

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Lazarus Short

So how do you figure
Do you believe that the rich man is in a purgatory scenario

No, I don't subscribe to the doctrine of purgatory, and even the RCC has abandoned it. I do believe that God will "punish" some, and by punish I don't mean it in the usual sense, but as a form of cleansing. It will be unpleasant at the time, but will it lead to righteousness. It will be comparable to God cursing the ground for OUR SAKES after the wrong fruit had been eaten. If any are still in Purgatory or Hell, how can God become All in all? But He does, so even the Lake of Fire must give up its dead.

EDIT: Oops! It was Limbo, not Purgatory, that the RCC dropped, wasn't it? Crossed wires again. They can't give up Purgatory - it's too big a money maker...

a reply to: Rex282

Rex, you are probably correct, but I have this bias in writing this book, and that is to deconstruct the cartoon doctrine of Hell. Other perspectives doubtless lead to different interpretations, and I do understand His message meant to reach some ears and minds, and not others. The whole of His ministry can be seen as "many are called, but few are chosen," but His message is much bigger than that.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

So you believe everyone will be redeemed at some stage

Sorry just trying to understand your point of view

I once read that hell was not eternal for humanity, sounded interesting, spent a good lot of time studying it but still undecided
When I say not eternal, there was no salvation for those judged, just that they met a point of non existence

Glad I am not in charge

So can you give a simple and concise explanation of your understanding of hell

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Lazarus Short

So you believe everyone will be redeemed at some stage

Sorry just trying to understand your point of view

I once read that hell was not eternal for humanity, sounded interesting, spent a good lot of time studying it but still undecided
When I say not eternal, there was no salvation for those judged, just that they met a point of non existence

Glad I am not in charge

So can you give a simple and concise explanation of your understanding of hell

OK, that's a tough challenge, but I think I can cover it in brief. The Bible is quite silent on Hell. What we have is a borrowed mindset from the pagan world, communicated by bad translation, and fueled by bad theology. Consider that:

God did not claim to have created Hell, only Heaven & Earth. Genesis 1:1

If God didn't make Hell, no one else did. John 1:3

For all His threatenings and warnings, God never mentioned Hell. In fact, in relation to the pagan god folks were burning their children to, God said such a thing had never entered His mind.

God's Law never mentions punishment after death, except for cases of bad translation.

In the Old Testament, all instances of "hell" should be "sheol," meaning the realm of the dead, or "grave" or "pit."

In the New Testament, "hell" should be "hades," the direct Greek equivalent of "sheol."

I'm not finding that Jesus spoke more on Hell than any other subject (as stupid preachers preach to stupid pew-warmers) - quite the opposite.

After Death and Hell (properly "the Grave") are cast into the Lake of Fire, the LoF must give up its dead - how can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell after that casting?

We know that God will become All in all, and if so, how can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell?

Eternal, conscious torment in Hell implies that your Spirit is in you - otherwise, it's just a dead body in Hell, and that would be absurd. But your Spirit is the Spirit of Life, given by God, and is one of the Seven Spirits of God. To say that anyone is alive and conscious in Hell is therefore very close to blasphemy, IMHO.

In northern, pagan Europe, folks believed in an underworld they called "Hel." Now we have "Hell" and one more "l" makes it Christian.

Eternal torment in Hell is dependent on Greek mythology and the concept of the immortality of the soul.

The Hell doctrine is looking more and more to me like a cartoon character superimposed on the real world - a sort of Roger Rabbit Artifact. I sometimes call it a 404 - not found.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
a reply to: Rex282

Rex, you are probably correct, but I have this bias in writing this book, and that is to deconstruct the cartoon doctrine of Hell. Other perspectives doubtless lead to different interpretations, and I do understand His message meant to reach some ears and minds, and not others. The whole of His ministry can be seen as "many are called, but few are chosen," but His message is much bigger than that.

I understand your ambivalence because there is NOTHING more vile and perverted than the doctrine of eternal punishment of hell however it is not reasonable to create another doctrine in it’s place.The fact is just as you have correctly stated numerous times in this forum there is no doctrine of the eternal punishment of hell in the scriptures because it is not reasonable.

The futility is creating new doctrines because that is not what Yahoshua did.He came to destroy religious doctrines (the sword)by forgiveness(which means freed from bondage) not bring peace(appeasement) As his name implies forgiveness is being delivered from the bondage of Hades which is the realm of death AND realm of imperception…mans belief in their Belief System religion.

You are partly correct in that what Yahoshua proclaimed was to be heard by the disciples who where the “chosen few” of the father(the creator God) to be freed first (first fruits) from their religion and to KNOW the kingdom of their heavens.They are the ONLY ones he ever told to proclaim the Gospel and they did.Just as Yahoshua said none heard it however it(the seed) was sown in the soils(wayside,rocky,thorns) that did not produce fruit.Only the disciples(good soil) produced fruit in this age.The evidence is everywhere.For 2,000 years Christianity(antichrists) have preached their Bad news.It has been twisted so many ways and has produced zero fruits of LIFE(spirit).As Yahoshua stated ..a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

Fortunately the creator God knows exactly how deliverance/salvation works and it is NOT religion because "eating" the fruit of religion(the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) is the cause and need of deliverance(metaphor)!If viewed reasonably it is the natural progression of how things grow.Plants don’t get to “cause” their own “birth” or growth.As Yahoshua said unless a seed dies it cannot produce fruit it remains a seed and dies unfruitful.

For all practical purposes the creator God has sown their seed(Son)of life(spirit) into to soils(earth…adamah….ADAM!).The creator God has clearly chosen not to inform mankind how this works even though mankinds “religion” believes they know when they only BELIEVE their religion. Fortunately whatever the truth is, it is NOT the religion of mankind. Essentially that is all Yahoshua states also.He never states a methodology of how to know the creator God or "attain" salvation because there is none.That would be like trying to teach a methodology on how to know the theory of Special Relativity to the ants.The content may be true but it is futile to teach a methodology.

The bottom line is the disciples accomplished the work the father set out for them.They became the 1st fruits(were freed from the bondage of their religion and knew the kingdom of their heavens) and proclaimed Yahoshua.It matters not one bit that none have heard it what matters is ALL will be Yahoshua (delivered from Hades by the creator God).THAT is the Good news.I know it is unthinkable however I know it is wise to let the creator God be the creator God.This is their creation and they alone know very well how it ALL works.Anything man adds only muddies up the works and soil however fortunately, that is all it does.Yahoshua cannot be foiled by the works of mans religion because that is the stinky catalyst.

a reply to: Rex282

Rex, I like your viewpoint. Do you really think I am trying to set up new doctrine? I thought I was only deconstructing Hell...

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
a reply to: Rex282

Rex, I like your viewpoint. Do you really think I am trying to set up new doctrine? I thought I was only deconstructing Hell...

No I don't think you are "trying" however you inadvertently are.There doesn't need to be "new" books written on how to enlighten people.That is the creator Gods job.Debunking old theology eventually turns into the "new" theology.You can’t mend old garments with new.Old wine skins cannot contain new wine.

It all seems well and good(don’t ask me how I know!) however it does not work.That is how new sects begin.The reality is a little leaven makes the whole lump of dough leavened.It must ALL be thrown out.

In other words Christianity doesn’t have fallacies that need to be corrected because it is completely leavened with religion.This is essentially what Yahoshua stated to the disciples about Judaism even though they couldn’t understand it…. for years!

a reply to: Rex282

AAAAAAAAAAH!