The Myth of the Benevolent Left

Well done good sir! Your rapier-like wit has swiftly eviscerated the follies of the liberal masses, milling about full-bellied with the pap of half-digested idealism! One can nearly hear in your elaborate oration the banner of self-determination snapping crisply in the winds of fortune, raised high upon the standard of your gleaming intellect! Let no one doubt your earnest proclamation, nor the incisive powers of observation which drive it!

Which is to say, stylistically your writing is interesting, if overly long. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get much from it in terms of an attempt to produce and support a point.

a reply to: PocketRevolution

He tried to work in the nobility of the poor.

Working poor should feel their jobs are important, they should have more respect and money than folks who do nothing at all.

And some poor folks just like to work less.

“It has occurred to me that the thing you have, that all men have enough of, is perhaps the thing that you care for the best, and that is your leisure - the leisure you have to think; the leisure you have to be let alone; the leisure you have to throw the plummet into your mind, and sound the depth and dive for things below.”
― James A. Garfield, The Works Of James Abram Garfield

I am an American currently traveling through India. I can 100% confirm that people are in fact born into circumstances under which no amount of 'trying', 'hard work', and 'pulling their own weight' will ever get them a decent life.

I find American-contemporary-Christian-conservative culture repulsive. It's the epitome of hypocrisy, shallowness, materialism. It's denial. And it's the LITERAL opposite of Jesus' teachings. Disgusting.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
...but they'll get no more out of me.

And I doth my hat to my fellows.

Farewell!

Finally! Farewell fellow flogger flabbergasting feathered frauds fleeing facing farcical feels formulated for fantastical fantasies full of fudge.

a reply to: ErgoNoMic

Me thinks it may just be time for a name change as it's likely become a noose...

I miss the large illuminated letter Lesmis once posted with...

your writing style dear Mis is unmistakable, I'm eager to see if your literary skill is adept enough to hide among the masses if suspicions are correct...

Tip tip cherrio old chap

Well, I think it's definitely a problem we have with the left in general being deified because they preach about helping people and all that.

I think if it's anyone's "duty" to take care of people who fail at life, it's the parents. I mean, ultimately, they chose to reproduce. We don't need it on this planet a million fewer births is not really going to threaten human existence. But it might make a dent in all this nonsense where people end up on the streets begging for food and medicine and all that and liberals using them for leverage to get what they want.

You can't really blame people who are hopeless for existing but you can sure blame their parents for screwing up somewhere. I mean people have a pretty good idea when their offspring are going to be messed up. Mindless reproduction is really just at the root of most problems.

a reply to: BrianFlanders

Ultimately yes... but there are so many without parents, or born directly onto poverty that anything other than help would be uncivilized or intrude on self possession as an autonomous being.

No one chose where they were born nor the circumstances. So a government nor country has any right over ones body, no matter how many laws may state otherwise.

originally posted by: humanityrising
I am an American currently traveling through India. I can 100% confirm that people are in fact born into circumstances under which no amount of 'trying', 'hard work', and 'pulling their own weight' will ever get them a decent life.

I find American-contemporary-Christian-conservative culture repulsive. It's the epitome of hypocrisy, shallowness, materialism. It's denial. And it's the LITERAL opposite of Jesus' teachings. Disgusting.

Absolutely - abso-frickin-lutely.
It's literally the opposite of the way humanity should be and should look upon and treat their fellow beings.

And no amount of pseudo-intellectual waffle and propaganda will change that fact.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Bluesma
So basically, you ARE the type of leftist the OP is about. You assume that since you have a government who tells you it is happening that anyone who is poor and homeless is there by choice because you washed your hands of it

No. I have discussions and exchanges with the few homeless we have here- there are a few men, with their dogs, who live here. We all know them by name and chat with them. We know their stories, are familiar with their "trip" and their arguments for why they refuse to accept the aid available to them. -Because it doesn't come "free". It comes with obligations and responsibilities, that they don't want.
I still, (like everyone else) try to convince him again and again. But just because a solid social security net is available does not mean people no longer have any individual freedom of choice.

... it's the government's responsibility, but you tell yourself you are more compassionate than others because you live in a country with a government that purports to "care,"

I have never claimed those on the right are lacking in compassion or care (especially since here in France, I am of the right).
I am sitting here wondering where does that come from? Do YOU accuse yourself of lacking compassion? Because I never did. It seems there are a bunch of people here with some sort of internal struggle with themselves that they are projecting outside!

Now- "the governments responsibility". I AM the government! Each family member here, each friend, all my neighbors, ARE the government!! It is OUR responsibility collectively, it is US who have chosen to accept that responsibility. (it took me longer to integrate and join the effort, being a foreigner who had 23 years of indoctrination and propaganda to sift through). Remember- responsibility is power. Deny the responsibility you give up the power, no matter what context.

For the last 2 1/2 years, I worked for the government, caring for people.
My husband works in the private sector, so he is funding these efforts. While I did direct work for people in need, he had his taxes come back to him in the form of my salary. It was, now that I think about it, a bit more each month than what he paid out in taxes!
A daughter and a son working in the private sector, but him in medical (who's clients are covered by the state), and she has state funded child care while at work.
My son is studying physics and math in university. That is paid for by the state. The taxes we pay each month pay my income, my son's, my daughters childcare, my other sons education, and all our healthcare.
Everyone pays into the system, everyone has it coming back somehow, in some form.

The government is an engine, the form of which we have chosen, and has no "compassion"... no more than the motor of your car drives you to a place because it has "compassion" for your need to get there.

The politicians that are in the highest positions of that system do not run on compassion either- they are forced, however to do our bidding, because they are our employees.
When you are at work and your employer tells you to go print out copies of a file, do you do it out of compassion?
No compassion or emotion required !

How are you any different than a heartless conservative who says that the poor are in that situation because of the choices they make?

The heartless conservative thing is your trip- I find it offensive. I have loved ones very close to me in the US who are very conservative and they are far from heartless... but apparently this whole thread is a chance for people to throw out insulting characterizations for fun.

But I will say that my dad and stepmom who are conservatives do not talk to any homeless people, and have never worked for the government with people in need. Though they are against state aid, his children who he abandoned young grew up on state funded school lunches, and lived without any adults in a state funded apartment.
It is very possible that our situation as abandoned children was a result of his choices (and those of our mother). But I think the choices were not as simple to catagorize as good or bad. He met another woman, who had a child, and they needed to work hard at creating a life for their selves. They were responsible and did so. Unfortunately, that meant it was impossible to also carry the previous kids as well. He had to make a choice.

I don't think he is heartless. I think he was typical of his generation- very hypocritical and in denial on some things. Speaking out against "Big Brother" and the man, the Establishment.... while simultaneously being totally dependant upon it without acknowledging that to themselves.
I think that we have been programmed to take our sense of individual power to a fanatical extreme, so that we deny the inevitable human weaknesses and lack of control over our destiny and experiences.

Most sickness and disease is NOT a result of your choices, most choices available have some sort of negative drawback to it, and not all can be foreseen.
We are all born with some physical and mental limitations, some develop over time; between nature and nurture, your individual free will is somewhat of an illusion.
The ego is not the grandmaster, both powerful and responsible.Your brain, we now know, makes decisions before you have even become fully cognizant of the question.

This is not lack of compassion or care- this is a struggle for any human being who has been raised within a value and ethics system that is idealistic... unadapted to reality and human nature.
A similar struggle must have ensued in peoples raised with the opposite fanaticism, as it became evident it was just as unrealistic, (in the USSR, for example).
I'm ranting here. I think reading over the last few pages with all the terribly nasty name calling, insults, and characterizations must have stirred my passion. I don't know why so much bile and venom comes forth in this thread- but I don't think it is a lack of compassion or care. You sound like you are scared and feel threatened. I I don't know.

Here, I am a conservative, right wing (as all is relative). What I found interesting in this country is that both sides of the political spectrum , even if they disagree and there is friction, understand they need each other.
Good sense stands that BOTH the individual and the collective have value, responsibility and power, and are interdependent.
This social net of security cannot exist without the (capitalist) private sector to fund it; the individuals who make up that private sector cannot be productive in it without the (socialist) public sector which keeps them healthy and educated.
They argue at times, they have conflicts, but they all know- this isn't about getting rid of the other side, it is about finding a workable and realistic synthesis. It's like a marriage, where two sides are opposing and complimentary!

Yuck, I am sorry I went off on this rant. This is ugly stuff on this thread. America is in the middle of a great divorce, and I see some bad mojo up ahead for the whole family. There's no peace to be made here. I'll step out of the discussion.

a reply to: Bluesma

I had exited the thread due to the OP's announced departure and the futility of arguing the facts with dishonest walls ... but, I just have to comment on several of your observations if I may:

1. Your point about the logical fallacies inherent in the OP and throughout many if not all of the "Way to go!" comments here is spot on. They aren't talking about actual leftists, Democrats, etc. they are setting up their own pathetic straw-man arguments and knocking them down. As seen, when faced with an actual American leftist providing facts, they sputter and spin and do nothing more than repeat obvious lies.

2. To drill down more specifically, American leftists and/or American Democrats do not universally complain that all members of the right-wing are "heartless" or any of the rest of the overt and direct LIES that are being fronted here. Further, is it ludicrous to claim, as OP and several fans here do, that millions of Americans who are left of center politically do NOTHING in their own communities to offer and provide charitable aid to those who need it. What rot! Still, we see the hordes of self-satisfied wingnuts congratulating each other on their lies while absolutely avoiding the facts of the matter.

3. Yes, after a decade or so of the vitriolic American right-wing media pounding in the idea that right wingers "surround" the rest of the country (statistically untrue as proven over and over again) most of these individuals think that they are in the majority in the United States, that Republicans/right-wingnuts are the "silent majority" everywhere and that Democrats, liberals and leftists are in the ignorable minority ... and they deny any fact or reality not spoon-fed to them by Fox News, Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, or the rest of the echo chamber's denizens.

4. And yes, nothing is getting done in American politics anymore ... because these folks keep their fingers jammed in their ears humming America the Beautiful while the business of the People is ignored and left undone because they KNOW THEY ARE RIGHT and THEY DON'T HAVE TO COMPROMISE WITH ANYONE.

Excellent comments, in short, Bluesma. LOL.

originally posted by: humanityrising
I am an American currently traveling through India. I can 100% confirm that people are in fact born into circumstances under which no amount of 'trying', 'hard work', and 'pulling their own weight' will ever get them a decent life.

I find American-contemporary-Christian-conservative culture repulsive. It's the epitome of hypocrisy, shallowness, materialism. It's denial. And it's the LITERAL opposite of Jesus' teachings. Disgusting.

And India is still a caste system for all their trying and noises about making it otherwise. American has stratification along income lines, but there are no actual hard and fast cultural/legal rules preventing a person from moving from one strata to another. India has those. You tend to remain in the caste you were born to for your entire life.

This is one of the problems with cultural relativism. You start drawing comparisons between things which are not, in fact, the same. Now if the US and India had the same culture, then we would be singing a different tune.

I am curious to know, however, how you, as an American, have the means to travel through India. Are you part of some higher cultural caste? Because I have to tell you that, although I have been chided for being wealthy on this on this forum many times, I have NEVER had the monetary means to simply travel India.

a reply to: Bluesma

No, I simply pointed out that when you allow government to take your responsibility to your fellow man, then you are exactly what this thread is about.

You may not like that truth, but it is the truth. You personally still have a responsibility to the people around you no matter how much you tell yourself that others will handle it because you voted for that and pay taxes for it.

I suggest the story of the Good Samaritan as a place to start.

originally posted by: NateTheAnimator
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Fantastic read and well written posts!

I just have one question though.

However, it is no one’s duty to provide you with food, shelter and healthcare. In fact, these are your own duties, of which you yourself (and every other animal on the planet) are responsible to provide.

Would it be ethical for a mother to commit infanticide or abandon her own children if she so choose to as it is not her duty to feed,house and/or care for her children?

I'm not attempting to make a point,I'm just curious as to how far you take this statement.

I have an answer to that.

It could be said that by getting pregnant and having a child she purposely made the commitment to care for it until such time that it could care for it self. She made a chose.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Bluesma

No, I simply pointed out that when you allow government to take your responsibility to your fellow man, then you are exactly what this thread is about.

You may not like that truth, but it is the truth. You personally still have a responsibility to the people around you no matter how much you tell yourself that others will handle it because you voted for that and pay taxes for it.

I suggest the story of the Good Samaritan as a place to start.

You apparently don't get it no matter what way I try to explain.

I am that "fellow man". My daughter and two sons and husband and stepfamily.... they are that fellow man.
We all are responsible for each other. That is why we all participate in taking care of each other.
There is no entity that is "the government". It is not a living breathing thing.

When I receive a letter from a loved one, it is not a post office entity that has taken over the responsibility of communication for that loved one that didn't want to take the time to travel all the way over to my house to give it to me in person.

The fact that I actually work in this system- I have been an employee of the state, in caring for people in the medical field, for the last few years, somehow keeps escaping your comprehension.
One of my sons, and my husband, are also in the medical field, doing a part of caring for people.

We are the ones "handling it" both financially and literally, in action, in our jobs, as well as being the ones receiving it.

I guess you cannot grasp this because you can't seem to bring together the giver and the receiver- they are one here.
I tried the best I could to see from your point of view, to delineate a payer and receiver, but it isn't possible. It is a circle in which all are both.

Each person I meet during the day, no matter who they are, we look at each other and know - you are helping to sustain me, I am helping to sustain you. Everyone is always aware of that.

While you judge me and say I am doing nothing for my fellow man (except work weekends and holidays, sweating and tired, in safety shoes that give me sores on my feet... ), I wonder- what are YOU doing for your family man around you, that is helping to sustain their life and remain productive parts of the system?

originally posted by: Bluesma
I guess you cannot grasp this because you can't seem to bring together the giver and the receiver- they are one here.
I tried the best I could to see from your point of view, to delineate a payer and receiver, but it isn't possible. It is a circle in which all are both.

Each person I meet during the day, no matter who they are, we look at each other and know - you are helping to sustain me, I am helping to sustain you. Everyone is always aware of that.

While you judge me and say I am doing nothing for my fellow man (except work weekends and holidays, sweating and tired, in safety shoes that give me sores on my feet... ), I wonder- what are YOU doing for your family man around you, that is helping to sustain their life and remain productive parts of the system?

Thank you for your thoughtful, compassionate posts.

Finger pointing here in America has reached a depressing level and finding the right words seems impossible, at times.

I'm officially elderly now and disabled. While I do receive Social Security Disability, it is at the reduced rate because I couldn't make it those last few years before my accumulated physical problems forced me out of the labor force. My wife worked at a union factory but has been unable to work since last June. She is four years younger than me and has lost her short term union disability check. We are rapidly approaching crunch time financially an my suspicion is that her company's insurance is trying to run out the clock on her long term disability. An insurance payment of a little over $500 is due the first of next month (which will include a deduction for the long term disability mentioned) and I'm not sure about how we'll take care of it yet. We haven't filed our taxes and can't until her company gets her our corrected tax form. Somehow they had me down as not being insured and we can't file until they straighten that out.

That said, I still put $2 in the donation jar for a young family the other day when I put in gas. No need to tell the whole story, but we had a tragedy here in our area and a young mother has lost everything but her two small children. Sometimes you just have to help where you can, when you can...

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Bluesma


I suggest the story of the Good Samaritan as a place to start.

Well you talk about cultural relativism. Then some biblical relativism. What about Jesus getting sick or the mob following Him and accusing them of following only for the food he was providing? Same can be said for the "safety net"......wow what a place for the shiftless to land. And Safety Net wow, these days we are way past government chezz!

How convenient Jesus looks when only part of the story is told.

originally posted by: PocketRevolution
Well done good sir! Your rapier-like wit has swiftly eviscerated the follies of the liberal masses, milling about full-bellied with the pap of half-digested idealism! One can nearly hear in your elaborate oration the banner of self-determination snapping crisply in the winds of fortune, raised high upon the standard of your gleaming intellect! Let no one doubt your earnest proclamation, nor the incisive powers of observation which drive it!

Which is to say, stylistically your writing is interesting, if overly long. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get much from it in terms of an attempt to produce and support a point.

I'm keeping my opinions to myself on this thread, but I have to say, I LOVE this post. Very, very clever! I will be giggling about it off and on all day, I'm sure. If I think about it again.

eta: I will miss the OP and hope he returns after a little sabbatical, and R&R. He was an asset to ATS.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

There is an important election coming soon in the United States, and the demagoguery regarding socialism, welfare, religion, foreign policy, terrorism, the poor and the rich, once again pervades the minds of the myopic masses as they often do. But if you’ve had the misfortune of holding your ear to the media, social and otherwise, there is a common misconception among the misinformation that is ubiquitous like air, but on a second whiff, breathes more like piffle.

You're so funny, LesMis. I just love your style. "Piffle" reminds of a Billy Wilder movie. And yes...that's how it looks like from the detouched but passionately engaged state of mind.

It seems that the most vocal advocates of leftist policies (my personal friends among them, bless their hearts) tend to imply they are morally superior than those who lean more to the right of them. The claim is made even more dubious when it is further implied that merely voting for the left is itself an act of compassion, when in reality they haven’t done anything more than what they’ve always done, which is to say, very little.

That highly depends on how one defines "the left" and its actions (now and some decades/centuries ago). But yes, nowerdays the controlled opposition, the left, is in its starting shoes to give the "poor" masses a little tiny bit more because otherwise the capitalistic-(cheating)-game would be over anytime soon.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Of course, “caring” in the leftist style means something like criticizing the inequalities of wealth, designating individuals into abstract groups of “rich” and “poor”, the “1%” and the “99%”, the “haves” and “have-nots” (no matter their reasons for being there), and then criticizing their conditions. The absurdity of limiting one’s compassion to this or that income bracket no matter of who resides within it is dangerous, not to mention immoral. Nonetheless, this sort of “caring” is beneficial insofar as it can be performed from the comfort of an easy-chair. One might think the next logical step is an act or two of selfless charity and good-will, maybe even distributing one’s own wealth among the lesser classes they deem worthy of it—but until then, sheer empathy suffices.

In my perception it's like this: The wealthy "leftists", the educated upper middle-class, does know "what goes around comes around" and therfore is trying to stay in the game, by being willing to at least share a tiny little bit of the wealth. That's more than lip-servis, I think. But it actually is just like saying, "well, okay, if it can not be avoided, the "poor" should have a cake once in a while too. And we try to steal the cake from the "right-wingers", so we don't have to share our cake."

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

As a sort of litmus test, ask anyone who advocates for a right to housing, to food, proper wages, proper welfare, and healthcare, if he himself has ever inclined to provide these “rights”. I wager he hasn’t. We could ask him: “Well? Why don’t you just do that?” With all we hear regarding their moral supremacy, since they are so good, we might expect to see a mob of compassionate leftists providing healthcare, housing and food at a cost to their own time, effort and resources every day; but at the very most we find an advocate of some politician or other, or a proponent of a particular ideology, demanding an allocation of money and a redistribution of wealth. Assuming they leave their comforts on a semi-regular basis, perhaps they come across one or two people in need of housing, food and healthcare on any given day without providing any such thing, but most especially when a real, living opportunity for caring lies shivering at their feet.

I also wonder, if any comfortably living "lefitst" had ever let a homeless person live in their house or appartement. I did. But I'm more of some upper-working-class upbringing. And letting a homeless person live in my appartement for some time, I experienced something I would not want to experience once again. Not that this dude was violating my rules of conduct, but he was into liking me too much...on a certain level, although I told him, more than once, that this is just friendship. He thought I'm going to be his new intimate friend, playing hard to get. But that's a completey different story all together.

The question is: How many (lefists) can claim having let a homeless person stay in their home? Anybody? Who can tell a story of how that worked out? Let's compare notes.