Problem for Christians and Muslims who believe in the Virgin birth of Christ

a reply to: tiidoc

You're welcome!

There are also some accounts of the childhood of Jesus that you might find interesting... and not in the way you might think...

Enjoy!

a reply to: tiidoc

I've already explained in my earlier posts. We believe the previous Scriptures aren't in their original forms anymore. The Psalms & Tawrat/torah have been corrupted over time, and the Injeel/Gospel given to Essa/Jesus literally doesn't exist anymore. The "Gospels" in the New Testament tell 2nd & 3rd hand accounts of the Prophet Essa/"Jesus", therefore they can't be the same as the Holy Book that God revealed to him.

So no, the versions in the Old Testament/Seuptuagint/TaNaKh have nothing to do with why we believe in the virgin birth. I even provided 2 direct passages from the Qur'an that explain it.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

www.hope-of-israel.org...

skip down to where the article starts talking about virgin births throughout history

a reply to: tiidoc

Regarding the issue of "the virgin birth" of Jesus Christ, I have to quote companiero Hitchins:

"What is more likely, that a virgin gave birth to a child or that a (jewish) woman lied?" - Christopher Hitchins.

Sorry, but I think that realy needed to be said, once again.

a reply to: tiidoc
First, your understanding of the divinity and humanity of Jesus is flatly not what Christians believe. Jesus is fully God and fully man. It's called hypostatic union. A half man-half god is a demigod by classical standards.

Also, your source is very anti-christian to begin with, so of course they're not going to concede the Virgin birth. It would go against what they believe. They do everything they can to deny that Jesus is their Messiah.

I've heard before that Muhammed had a Catholic teacher, which may have influenced his knowledge of Mary, so as far as your statement that the "Muslims just copied the concept from Christians" may not be too far fetched; though I think your reasoning for his doing so (if indeed that is the case) may be a bit misconstrued.

And, generally speaking (not aimed at anyone in particular) why is it ATSers don't want to go to sources for different ideas? If you wanted to fix a Model T Ford, why would you go the Dodge brothers for an answer? In an effort to "deny ignorance" many ATSers don't want the truth! /endrant

a reply to: IsidoreOfSeville

Site doesnt have to be pro Christian for it to have elements of the truth. I'm not pro anything...just simply wanted to discuss the Virgin birth topic.

Not one person who supports the virgin birth has explained away the many other virgin births of the past.

Why are you saying Christians have a problem, Christians don't have a problem, you clearly do.
Transferring your problems onto us doesn't work

Greek mythology, all the other religions stole the story from Israel

I can't answer your question, I don't understand it

a reply to: Raggedyman


We and them, they against us, we against them....that's what "divide and conquer" is all about, dude. Don't you know by now?

Who stole what from whom does not matter at all. What is good teaching, THAT is what matters. What delivers, that is what counts. What works to free humanity from being slaves to mere concepts that don't apply anymore, THAT is what it's all about....down here in sissy-knows-better-than-anybody-else-land.

No offense intented. Just expressing my point of view.

originally posted by: mamabeth
Yeshua HaMashiach was born from a virgin and was NOT a prophet,He was God
in flesh!

Jesus never said he was God; he said he was the Son of only, as of course the referencing this: all humans are Gods/children/progeny. He could have used the term "A product of the Universal Construct" but this was not an idea form conceived/conceptualized at that time period. There are physical properties involved in the conception of life; one is sperm, one is the receptive ovum. There is enough magic here. Jesus was not an incubated test tube Prophet; and if was, why are there not a few more as backups to the original plan in case this particular Prophet 'insert overlay' failed?

originally posted by: Willingly
a reply to: Raggedyman


We and them, they against us, we against them....that's what "divide and conquer" is all about, dude. Don't you know by now?

Who stole what from whom does not matter at all. What is good teaching, THAT is what matters. What delivers, that is what counts. What works to free humanity from being slaves to mere concepts that don't apply anymore, THAT is what it's all about....down here in sissy-knows-better-than-anybody-else-land.

No offense intented. Just expressing my point of view.

You are right but nothing is working, nothing at all

Just lots of information based on opinion, as is mine

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

originally posted by: mamabeth
Yeshua HaMashiach was born from a virgin and was NOT a prophet,He was God
in flesh!

Jesus never said he was God; he said he was the Son of only, as of course the referencing this: all humans are Gods/children/progeny. He could have used the term "A product of the Universal Construct" but this was not an idea form conceived/conceptualized at that time period. There are physical properties involved in the conception of life; one is sperm, one is the receptive ovum. There is enough magic here. Jesus was not an incubated test tube Prophet; and if was, why are there not a few more as backups to the original plan in case this particular Prophet 'insert overlay' failed?

Jesus never had to say he was God
He proved it

Control over the elements, stopped a raging storm
Control over illness, healed many
Control over the spiritual, healed the possessed man with a legion of demons
Control over death, raised a little girl and Lazarus from death
Control over sin, forgave sinners

You can rage and remonstrate, the truth is in the gospels, Jesus is God

That's all in Mark 4 and on,

a reply to: Raggedyman

Was Moses also God or just a lessor God?

a reply to: vethumanbeing
Moses acted on Gods behalf and never forgave sin.

I don't think anything I say could sway your opinion.

It may be worth researching for yourself.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

You can rage and remonstrate, the truth is in the gospels, Jesus is God

That's all in Mark 4 and on,

Jesus says he is God and he is not God.
There is stuff like this all over the Bible that says he is not God:

My Father is greater than I. John 14:28
Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Colossians 3:1

and this also where he is God:

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58
God was made manifest in the flesh. 1 Timothy 3:16

I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. John 10:30-31


The virgin birth mythology is also called parthenogenesis, the are many Greek and Egyptian versions and most mythologies contain some form of Demi-god character who has a sky-father and virgin Earth mother.

Hercules father was Zues, the main God on a throne in the sky and his mother was an Earth woman. Same for Thor.

originally posted by: tiidoc
a reply to: enlightenedservant

www.hope-of-israel.org...

skip down to where the article starts talking about virgin births throughout history

What does that have to do with what I said or the Islamic view of Mariam/Mary and the virgin birth of her son?

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: tiidoc
a reply to: enlightenedservant

www.hope-of-israel.org...

skip down to where the article starts talking about virgin births throughout history

What does that have to do with what I said or the Islamic view of Mariam/Mary and the virgin birth of her son?

It has everything to do with it if you compare the vast number of other virgin births throughout history.

a reply to: tiidoc

I could provide you with a link that can compare and contrast other supposed virgin births to Christ's, but I have a feeling you wouldn't believe it anyway.

a reply to: IsidoreOfSeville

Please do

a reply to: tiidoc

Alright, I found two. The second one is a bit wordy.

Was the Virgin Birth of Jesus Grounded in Paganism?

&

Virgin Birth of Christ

I don't know if those will answer you, I like to think they would, but I think they are great places to start if not. These were written by folks with a bigger brain than I possess when it comes to these sorts of things.

Enjoy!

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: vethumanbeing
Moses acted on Gods behalf and never forgave sin.
I don't think anything I say could sway your opinion.
It may be worth researching for yourself.

I have stated no opinion as there are too many contradictions at work here (more interested in why those exist); to confuse the human? There is no God only the Absolute (cosmic law). There are the (demi-god posers); those that have esoteric knowledge and use that information to manipulate a system to their advantage. Let me think about this 'researching' thing you speak of.